The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Inside a black hole?  (Read 2610 times)

Offline Mad Mark

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
Inside a black hole?
« on: 21/02/2009 20:28:38 »
I am a bit confused, please help.
Why does a black hole have to contain a singularity? Would not say 10 solar masses condensed down to the size of say a hot air baloon be enough to require more that the speed of light to escape?
And while on this subject if all the matter is in a singularity and all the matter is then turned to energy, then where does the gravity come from?
And finally if the universe is not all a one way process and it did collapse in on its self unlike a black hole all space and time would be swallowed up as well .What happens when there is no more spacetime left to support gravity does it all go bang again. What does a computor simulator make of a collapsed universe at that point?
And if a black hole can't destroy a Higgs Boson then what chance does the LHC have?
« Last Edit: 21/02/2009 21:37:41 by Mad Mark »


 

Offline syhprum

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3817
  • Thanked: 19 times
    • View Profile
Re: Inside a black hole?
« Reply #1 on: 21/02/2009 20:50:07 »
This weeks NEW SCIENTIST quotes the Astrophysical Journal www.arxiv.org/abs/0902.0653v1 with the intriguing possibility that the supernova SN1987A went further than collapsing into a neutron star and collapsed even further into a quark star where Neutrons lose their identity and form a sea of quarks.
as the escape velocity is now very nearly c I see no reason why a somewhat larger star could not collapse in this manner and hide behind an event horizon 
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 11987
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Inside a black hole?
« Reply #2 on: 21/02/2009 23:46:54 »
We 'know' that there are objects acting as what we expect black holes to act.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast12jan_1.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080723142119.htm
They are only indirect evidence as no black holes is near enough for us to observe directly though.

As for why it should create a gravitational field if being composed of only 'energy' is another question.
And a rather good one too:)

A mainstream(?) explanation for that could be that light carries momentum. If you in a perfect vacuum shines a flashlight at a light absorbing material that material will receive photons/waves. As the light is absorbed it will energize the 'electron clouds' surrounding the atoms in that matter. That means that they will move/vibrate faster, and we know that something moving faster will create a 'gravity well' just as that spaceship traveling near 'c', And as far as I understand it the direction of that movement don't have any importance for that effect. so light becomes transformed into 'mass'. Then you need to remember a strange thing about bosons like photons are. They can be superimposed. That means that photons, even though we observe them at a daily basis, don't seem to take any 'place' so we can easily place them all (theoretically)at the same metaphorical spot in space. Doing so we can have an enormous energy concentrated at one 'spot'.  We know that photons follows space geodesics ('bends' to gravity) and we also know that photons always will be traveling at the 'c' appropriate for whatever density it can travel in.

A black hole starts with 'matter' and 'matter' will have a gravitational field. As it breaks down into a 'quark gluon soup' it shrinks, and at some point this shrinking will create what is called a event horizon, that will stop any energy from leaving it. That energy will be moving inside that event horizon, and as the density of that black hole by now is 'indefinite', and as more 'stuff' falls in, or as some see it, stays at that event horizon never reaching it we don't really know what happens inside it. But if we accept that lots of energy in a ever constricting place will create lots of movement and see that this 'quark gluon soup' to be broken down in even smaller constituents 'photons' that gets superimposed, then that 'core' may become a 'spot' not measurable for us, containing photons moving at 'c' in a super condensed 'spot' and that 'spot' should then be of 'infinite' density.

Strange:)
Totally so, hopefully you will get a simpler explanation. But thinking of it this is what I came up with::))
The black holes should be the last remains of spacetime containing 'fresh' transformable energy as I see it.
When all other 'energy' no more is possible to transform into 'work' of some kind.

As for Higgs?
It's still a unproven theory experimentally, we will know better next year perhaps.
It can also be so that space and gravity is a natural consequence/symmetry with matter, not involving any higgs particles bosons fields etc.
That is what I think, but I seem to be in minority there:)
« Last Edit: 21/02/2009 23:55:08 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2072
    • View Profile
    • Photonics
Inside a black hole?
« Reply #3 on: 22/02/2009 00:09:01 »
Quote from: yor_on
That is what I think, but I seem to be in minority there:)
I don't know; that explanation seemed to me to be pretty much the majority view. But you know by now that I suspect that black holes can't really exist. My speculation is that there are almost black holes at the centre of galaxies and these monsters crunch matter into pure energy. That's how we avoid the all-heavy-mass paradox of the steady-state universe. :)   
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 12656
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • A stitch in time would have confused Einstein.
    • View Profile
Inside a black hole?
« Reply #4 on: 22/02/2009 00:17:33 »
Mark - Singularities are mathematical entities. There is nothing that says they must exist, just that they can exist. Unfortunately our knowledge of ultra-small-scale physics (Planck scale) is non-existent so we just don't know what happens inside a black hole and all we can do is try to apply what we do know. What our current knowledge tells us is that for a large enough mass contraction will continue down to a zero-size point. However, there may be a law of physics of which we are at present ignorant that will prevent collapse to a singularity. We will have to wait for a more complete theory of gravity before we can know more.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Inside a black hole?
« Reply #4 on: 22/02/2009 00:17:33 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums