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Author Topic: How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?  (Read 30405 times)

Offline Chemistry4me

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #25 on: 07/03/2009 04:47:52 »
What is interesting to me is that as space i.e. the Universe expands it makes / creates more space which, in turn, makes / creates more dark energy.
Chris, do you have any link to papers/documents discussing this fact, that is the creation of more dark enenergy as Universe expands?
He did do an interview:

Dark Matter And The Big Bang
 

Offline lightarrow

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #26 on: 07/03/2009 09:09:25 »
What is interesting to me is that as space i.e. the Universe expands it makes / creates more space which, in turn, makes / creates more dark energy.
Chris, do you have any link to papers/documents discussing this fact, that is the creation of more dark enenergy as Universe expands?
He did do an interview:

Dark Matter And The Big Bang
I've read it but I sincerely haven't found the part where the professor says that more dark energy is created as universe expands.
 

Offline yor_on

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #27 on: 07/03/2009 10:51:07 »
Well, first of all, a theory that's not backed by experiments is nothing but a theory, or wouldn't it be more correct to call such an idea a hypothesis? Yep I'm cranky here.

So whether there is a 'cosmological redhift' or not I do not know, but just because a believer have formulated it in a wiki does not make it a fact. Sorry guys, show me the experiments supporting it and I will change my tune though:)

As for dark energy rushing away.
I still think we should be noticing it looking at distant objects. There should be relativistic effects, that is if you don't suggest all dark matter to be rushing away FTL in which case no 'gravitational ripples' ever would reach us, as I understands it. and in that case we would never know, would we?

I must admit that I've always found this strange idea of 'expansion' working only on 'space' a little hard to stomach. There are so many  strange ideas surrounding it that it to me gets very near magic. The idea that it somehow know how to separate space outside of matter from space inside matter, which it has to do if we want to say that only space expands.

There is a alternative view in where it's more about clocks ticking :)
In that idea you will find that what we call expansion is a direct result of "our estimates of volume are too small and our estimates of time are too slow." But then again, there is a lot of people that want to believe differently but if we believe in the idea of Occam's razor perhaps we should listen to him? See for yourself. And Vern, I just know you will like it:) http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19726461.600-dark-energy-may-just-be-a-cosmic-illusion.html?page=1

------------

What I'm saying here is all about expansion, not about inflation which was a totally different aspect.

--

Ah, another thing that throws me of a little is the idea of it being an accelerating effect.
You see no matter how we look on light, between two frames it will express itself as always coming at 'c', either red or blue shifted, but at all times at 'c'¨. But in this expanding place our universe is thought to be we first of all took away all 'particle properties' of this photon it seems. I mean, how else do you believe it to be 'red shifted'? So we took away one of the most important properties to make our new theory.
---
Thinking about it again. Perhaps we can keep the 'particle aspect to the photon.
And then that argument falls away:)
But the rest still stands.

-------------

Let us place this 'wave' at a 'real' 3D point in spacetime, and then say, in a dark and mysterious voice...

- Behold disciples, how Spacetime grows :)

Now we have to assume that this 'expansion' is equable in all directions, if we don't we will get problems as we then would get both red and blue shift for the photons, ah sorry, wave and, as seen from our frame naturally, with velocity's at times reaching past 'c'. So I will presume that this expansion is equable.

Place your wave of choice at that point... and see it die.
It won't work, sorry, nada,, no no no...
 
As every point in 'space is thought to expand around this point we looked at, in a continuous manner, this wave won't be able to go any where, Every point of it inside spacetime will be directly and continuously redshifted until it is 'quenched' it seems to me :) A easy way to visualize it is to think of every point in spacetime as having mysterious minuscule 'space-balloons' hidden inside it.

When spacetime 'expands' it is those 'space-balloons' inflating and your wave will suddenly be inside them, but inside that first 'space-balloon' you will find it to come ever more 'space-balloons' inflating themselves as your 'spacetime' expands. So as a wave it don't seem to stand a chance, but seen as a 'particle' you might be able to argue that it's not influenced by this constantly 'expanding space'? Perhaps, but I don't see how you can keep any type of 'duality' intact here?

The point I make here is that this wave not only will redshift.
It will also instantly 'disintegrate/diffuse' in all 'directions' simultaneously, if this is correct.

Ah well, I've always loved magic, so, who will refute it :)

--------

The only way it makes some sense to me would be if I saw those 'photons' as particles it seems. Then you will have them more and more 'spread out' in spacetime at this 'expansion', forever(?) isolated in a constantly growing space. That as we then 'delimit' the photon if seeing a 'particle' instead of treating it as a wave.
« Last Edit: 07/03/2009 14:07:10 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #28 on: 07/03/2009 12:37:31 »
We think a lot alike yor_on; poor you :) But you lost me in your balloon model. I have never liked the idea of dark energy, dark matter if it is of the exotic unknown kind, or expanding universe; dark matter would fit in my mind okay if it were simply dark ordinary matter.

So in that sense, I did like the article you linked. They are not quite there yet but they may be on to something.

Quote from: yor_on link above
But how can the distribution of matter account for the apparent accelerated expansion? The most promising model so far has been put forward by David Wiltshire, a physicist at the University of Canterbury in New Zealand (Physical Review Letters, vol 99, p 251101). Wiltshire has shown that by combining Buchert's equations with some strange quirks of general relativity he can explain the supernova observations without resorting to dark energy (New Journal of Physics, vol 9, p 377).

Quote from: yor_on
The only way it makes some sense to me would be if I saw those 'photons' as particles it seems. Then you will have them more and more 'spread out' in spacetime at this 'expansion', forever(?) isolated in a constantly growing space. That as we then 'delimit' the photon if seeing a 'particle' instead of treating it as a wave.

We might could use the Kemp model for a photon. In that model, the observation of the particle is the maxima of the wave point. The field surrounding the point is of the same substance as the point but at less amplitude. Any action imparted by a photon will most probably take place very close to the point but has a diminishing probability to take place at a distance from the point. 
Quote from: Kemp's paper
In this paper it will be shown that there is an electromagnetic saturation constant in nature. Maxwell’s equations will be evaluated to derive this constant. It will also be shown that electric and magnetic change is quantized in nature. This is realized when Maxwell’s displacement current is viewed as the actual photon of energy. The constant charge for and electromagnetic wave is shown to be the curvature of space around its electric amplitude and equivalent to Planck’s constant. A mathematical derivative for frequency is established and a photon model is introduced. Also, Maxwell’s equations are modified to incorporate single photons and the quantum phenomenon.
« Last Edit: 07/03/2009 12:47:47 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #29 on: 07/03/2009 13:10:48 »
Vern I was arguing it from the point of it happening.
That's not the same as me beliving it for a fact.
The mysterious space-balloons is the nearest analogue I could think of.
If spacetime expands that gotta be rather near to how it does it as the space will grow 3-dimensionally in all directions simultaneously, and as all new 'points' as soon as they are 'here', will become the 'breeding ground' for new 'points' growing, it 'never' stops.
Another way to look at those 'points' might be as a multitude of fountains constantly 'spurting' out new 'points in space', but I like my space-balloons best , biased yep:)
Or can you see another way for those new 'points' to 'materialize?

They need to have a 'size' those points to be able to expand spacetime.
And so will that wave need to have.
If one would like to see those waves as only being influenced in one direction then I would expect waves to be one-dimensional, and that would make them 'brothers' and 'sisters' to strings :)

--
Ok so you read it, the piece of 'expanding' too?

« Last Edit: 07/03/2009 13:43:56 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #30 on: 07/03/2009 14:03:51 »
You can visualize kemp's saturated wave points as a three dimensional bell curve projecting upward followed by a duplicate bell curve pointing downward. The projected areas represent the amplitude of the electric and magnetic field. If photons existed as such, they would be observed as points even though they would always exist as electromagnetic amplitude fluctuations. In other words, they could only be observed as particles, but they could only exist as waves.
 

Offline yor_on

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #31 on: 07/03/2009 14:14:41 »
So how would that fit in a two slit experiment where you are testing for 'particles' not waves?

-------
He is interesting
And it seems as he have worked on his paper quite a while.
What did you mean by a 'three dimensional bell curve'?
That it would express itself as a 'particle'?
« Last Edit: 07/03/2009 15:09:52 by yor_on »
 

Offline chris

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #32 on: 07/03/2009 16:37:58 »
This is the interview with Brian Schmidt, from the Australian National University, who co-won the Gruber prize for his work on the expanding Universe.

It was he who said that the more space you make the more dark energy you make - because space has energy attached to it, and that's what's fuelling the accelerating Universe.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/829/

Chris

 

Offline Vern

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #33 on: 07/03/2009 17:46:12 »
Interesting interview Chris; Brian pretty well follows the expansion theory except that I had never before seen the idea that dark energy comes from the the expanded space.
Quote from: yor_on
He is interesting
And it seems as he have worked on his paper quite a while.
What did you mean by a 'three dimensional bell curve'?
That it would express itself as a 'particle'?

I'll look for a graphic of the concept. If I can't find one I'll write a little C program to create one. It is basically just two saturated points with amplitude following a sine curve both in the direction of motion and perpendicular to the direction of motion. This forms a three dimensional bump like a pointy tit :) one following the other and one pointing up and the other pointing down.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #34 on: 07/03/2009 22:52:51 »
What is interesting to me is that as space i.e. the Universe expands it makes / creates more space which, in turn, makes / creates more dark energy. Therefore, if the thing that is making space is expanding more quickly than light travels, then whatever makes dark energy is also moveing faster than light, presumably...?

That doesn't necessarily follow. Space is not moving, it is expanding. There is no "thing" moving at all.

Space is not expanding faster than light. To use an analogy I used in another thread, imagine a length of elastic with dots on it. Hold it by both ends and stretch it. The dots will move apart but they do not move on the elastic; they move with it. Each dot is moving away from its neighbour at the same rate, but dots further apart are moving away from each other at a greater rate.

Applying this to the universe you can see that no 2 adjacent points are moving away from each other very fast. However, as with the elastic, points further apart are moving away from each other faster. The further apart they are, they faster they are moving apart as there is more expanding space between them. Each point in space is being expanded at the same rate, but the effect is cumulative. If 2 points are far enough apart then their recession from each other can exceed the speed of light even though those points are not actually moving in space.

Thinking about how this may affect a photon other than by Doppler effects, I don't see that it does. The photon itself is not affected by expansion; it is just the medium through which it is travelling (space) that is affected. All it means is that there are more points in space for the photon to travel through. The further a photon travels, the more points in space it must travel through. Isn't that precisely what causes the Doppler effect? Whether the distant light source is moving, or it is just the space in between that is expanding, the overall effect would be the same.
« Last Edit: 07/03/2009 23:01:11 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #35 on: 07/03/2009 23:10:07 »

I must admit that I've always found this strange idea of 'expansion' working only on 'space' a little hard to stomach. There are so many  strange ideas surrounding it that it to me gets very near magic. The idea that it somehow know how to separate space outside of matter from space inside matter, which it has to do if we want to say that only space expands.


As far as I am aware, dark energy does indeed exist inside matter but gravitational and other forces are holding it in check. This is also the basis of the Big Rip theory.

The Big Rip theory says that inside matter space is expanding at an ever increasing rate but that the other forces are stronger and are holding it back. Eventually, however, the pressure of that expansion will be enough to overcome the other forces. Not only will it overcome the force of gravity and cause stars and galaxies to come apart, but it will act even down to the quark level and cause protons & neutrons to also come apart. All that will be left will be a quark-gluon soup in a universe that is still expanding ever faster.
 

Offline Vern

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #36 on: 08/03/2009 00:17:53 »
That scenario doesn't seem like a place where I would want to live. Maybe if we describe it differently it may become so.
 

Offline Astronomer_FB

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #37 on: 08/03/2009 02:24:03 »
Because it doesn't expand in space.


Do you mean that space expands, but the light in that space doesn't expand with it? I have trouble getting hold of the expanding space concept. For example, as space expands, do stars become farther apart? Do galaxies become farther apart? Is the expansion uniform everywhere? Do the more distant galaxies seem to expand more rapidly simply because there is more expanding space between us and them?

It hurts my brain just thinking about it. I kinda hope someone comes up with a better explanation for the apparent expansion.
Actually there is a simple expirement to do to answer your questions.  What you do is have a rubber band tube or something that stretches like a rubber band but in straight not circular. Put something like marbles with wholes in them and put them spread out on the rubber band and then measure the distance now. After measuring stretch the rubberband and the marbles should start to grow apart . you actually dont have to measure if you don't want to.

Light is the fastest thing in Space except for space itself. Space is the only exception to light i learned this on an episode of the univers.  There is a theory out there though that space is not expanding but it is so big that light has yet to still touch some of it and that we are only seeing so many years of light being shined on.
 

Offline Astronomer_FB

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #38 on: 08/03/2009 02:27:29 »
If the universe is expanding doesn't that mean it is fighting all the forces and if it expands so far that it starts to lose the "fight" with gravity and magneic fields, will it collapse and slingshot back to it's beggining size and shape whatever it may be?
 

Offline JP

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #39 on: 08/03/2009 05:08:31 »
Thinking about how this may affect a photon other than by Doppler effects, I don't see that it does. The photon itself is not affected by expansion; it is just the medium through which it is travelling (space) that is affected. All it means is that there are more points in space for the photon to travel through. The further a photon travels, the more points in space it must travel through. Isn't that precisely what causes the Doppler effect? Whether the distant light source is moving, or it is just the space in between that is expanding, the overall effect would be the same.

I think the major difference in practice is that the Doppler shift is calculated from actual velocities (and therefore objects can't be moving apart at greater than the speed of light).  The redshift due to the universe's expansion isn't bounded by this, as distant enough objects can be moving apart at greater than the speed of light.  The two are kept separate probably because physicists like to think of velocities within the universe as distinct from the expansion of the universe, but the effect will be similar, as you say.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #40 on: 08/03/2009 09:50:57 »
Quote
The two are kept separate probably because physicists like to think of velocities within the universe as distinct from the expansion of the universe, but the effect will be similar, as you say.

You mean I was right!? Sort of? Ish? Kinda?
« Last Edit: 08/03/2009 09:54:00 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline Vern

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #41 on: 08/03/2009 21:04:03 »
Quote from: yor_on
He is interesting
And it seems as he have worked on his paper quite a while.
What did you mean by a 'three dimensional bell curve'?
That it would express itself as a 'particle'?
Here's that graphic I said I would make for you. It is a little distorted and not exactly right but maybe you can get the drift of it.

The surrounding grid represents the field; the displacement from the normal plane represents electric and magnetic amplitude; one polarity up; the other polarity down; it doesn't matter which.

The point I was trying to make is that with this model, you see both a particle and a wave.


 

Offline ichatfilipina

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #42 on: 09/03/2009 10:05:43 »
planet size will not expand anymore, but the galaxy or asteroid it does. We knows only our universe or the 9 planets. Then NASA discovered the newest planet which is planet Nibiru or Planet Eris it was not align the 9 planets and no direction.. What if the newest planet will collide the other planet. We dont know what will happen to be but it is possible the collision of the planets. We knows already that planet Nibiru has no direction, it was far from our universe then went near to planet pluto and planet Jupiter. Planet Nibiru has no direction and no alignment of rings.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #43 on: 09/03/2009 11:05:15 »
planet size will not expand anymore, but the galaxy or asteroid it does. We knows only our universe or the 9 planets. Then NASA discovered the newest planet which is planet Nibiru or Planet Eris it was not align the 9 planets and no direction.. What if the newest planet will collide the other planet. We dont know what will happen to be but it is possible the collision of the planets. We knows already that planet Nibiru has no direction, it was far from our universe then went near to planet pluto and planet Jupiter. Planet Nibiru has no direction and no alignment of rings.

OK, if you say so. Now would you care to explain how it is relevant to the expansion of the universe and the Red Shift?
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #44 on: 09/03/2009 11:08:36 »
Don - that's a nice graphic but I'm not sure I understand exactly what it's meant to represent. I can see the wave but which part of the graphic is the particle?
 

Offline Vern

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #45 on: 09/03/2009 12:41:39 »
Don - that's a nice graphic but I'm not sure I understand exactly what it's meant to represent. I can see the wave but which part of the graphic is the particle?
The points up and down represent the positive and negative electromagnetic amplitude swings, which occur sinusoidally but extend outwardly in amplitude as the inverse squared. When I applied the outward extension, the sine wave was distorted, so the graphic isn't quite correct.

The centre of the bumps up and down are saturated electrically and magnetically. By saturated I mean the maximum possible that space can support. The transition from the flat plane to the top of the bump interacts as if it is a particle. The spacial area around the peak-amplitude bumps interact as if it is a wave.

Here's another copy for quick reference.

« Last Edit: 09/03/2009 12:44:24 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #46 on: 09/03/2009 13:22:02 »
Nice image Vern.
You seem to be quite handy with C
(more than one way:)

This 'saturation maximum' of a photon that you are referring too.
Is that how you see it acting as a 'particle' then?

And would 'matter' then be constituted of 'saturation maxima' bound together, how?

-------

To me it seems that you can't differ between the expansion pace's redshift, if it's there, and Doppler redshift?
It will be a guess, however educated it might be.

Or?



 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #47 on: 09/03/2009 13:37:16 »
Vern - I apologise for having credited Don with that graphic instead of you.

Thank you for the explanation. I think I understand.
 

Offline Vern

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #48 on: 09/03/2009 13:46:02 »
Quote from: yor_on
This 'saturation maximum' of a photon that you are referring too.
Is that how you see it acting as a 'particle' then?
Yes; I thought of the saturated points as appearing to be particles; however; Dr. Kemp convinced me that it was the transition from zero amplitude to the maximum amplitude that would interact as a particle. According to Kemp, mass is electromagnetic change. So it is the change that makes the difference. The saturated amplitude simply gives us the quantum phenomena.

The state of energy called matter would be composed of these things locked in resonant patterns.
« Last Edit: 09/03/2009 13:49:33 by Vern »
 

Offline Vern

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #49 on: 09/03/2009 13:47:17 »
Vern - I apologise for having credited Don with that graphic instead of you.

Thank you for the explanation. I think I understand.
Hey; no problem; I'm sure Don_1 could have done it; but I suspect Don_1 has a different view of the composition of matter. :)
« Last Edit: 09/03/2009 13:50:39 by Vern »
 

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