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Author Topic: How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?  (Read 30426 times)

Offline DoctorBeaver

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #75 on: 20/03/2009 00:06:01 »
I do not know what it is, but I suspect there is some explanation that does not require such cavalier trashing of the physical laws of nature.

I don't see that we trash the laws of nature. We don't know for certain what those laws are, or even if universal laws actually exist. All we can say is that they appear to hold true for the visible universe. There may be regions (domains) outside our visible universe where the laws are very different.

There are theories that during inflation the universe became fragmented, or maybe the fragmentation existed prior to inflation. It is these fragments that are surmised, in some theories, to be bounded by cosmic strings. Each fragment may have different laws. We happen to exist in 1 fragment where the laws are what they are.

If inflation did actually happen then there would not have been enough time for information to pass across all the domains so it is quite possible that constants such as c & g in those other domains are totally different. In fact, that is quite likely.
 

Offline yor_on

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #76 on: 20/03/2009 00:30:51 »
Interesting :)  Myself I've thought of inflation as a 'topological defect' or maybe it's what came after inflation that is the 'topological defect' :) And that is as I think of space and matter as some kind of 'mirroring' of each other. So as soon we have 'matter' we will have 'space', and 'c'. But as I see it, that doesn't define what was before.

I've seen ideas expecting space to be, not counting in expansion, as big as today with 'matter' sort of coagulating out of particles and suns in that great wasteness. I don't think so myself though, I think inflation is some kind of 'state' where it all 'spreads out' if you like, but not involving distances at all, as distances is a property of our dimensions, What spacetime might be is a topological 'wonder child' creating 'distances' and 'dimensions', but before that there should be a 'transition' of some kind creating? mass? matter?

And a guess could then be that 'mass' is creating what we see as dimensions and 'space' today. But if one look at this way it still doesn't 'explain' how particles bounds into dead and living matter. But you can see it as a field too perhaps, interchangeable in itself. I see spacetime as something not easily divisible though, although we observe different 'forces' as coexisting
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #77 on: 20/03/2009 00:51:49 »
Interesting :)  Myself I've thought of inflation as a 'topological defect' or maybe it's what came after inflation that is the 'topological defect' :) And that is as I think of space and matter as some kind of 'mirroring' of each other. So as soon we have 'matter' we will have 'space', and 'c'. But as I see it, that doesn't define what was before.


But how would you account for the fact that matter didn't exist in the very early universe. It was far too hot. Space was there, but not matter.
 

Ethos

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #78 on: 20/03/2009 01:51:35 »
Interesting :)  Myself I've thought of inflation as a 'topological defect' or maybe it's what came after inflation that is the 'topological defect' :) And that is as I think of space and matter as some kind of 'mirroring' of each other. So as soon we have 'matter' we will have 'space', and 'c'. But as I see it, that doesn't define what was before.


But how would you account for the fact that matter didn't exist in the very early universe. It was far too hot. Space was there, but not matter.
Drawing an absolute differentiation between matter and energy is a tricky proposition. Remember the famous formula? E=mc^2
 

Offline yor_on

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #79 on: 20/03/2009 11:52:57 »
Ah it's just me binding myself up in knots :)
But the idea is that this transition, if it ever happened, is what created what we call 'space', so no, there was nothing we call 'spacetime' before that. 'Mass' is what needs 'space', and 'space' without 'mass' is not there. It's highly implausible I guess :) but it suits my thinking, and it explains the concept of 'inflation' to me. If what we call dimensions and distance is a property of spacetime, then what we might have had before wasn't anything of that, just as Ethos, and yourself DB (hidden dimension) seems to thinks, that we need something not 'regulated' of those forces that binds spacetime today. I like my concept as it doesn't need to change any of the 'constants' that rule us. So what I'm thinking is that the concept of 'mass' needs 'space' and if we had a 'moment'(?) at the Big Bang where the 'state' was something else, not involving what we call 'dimensions' and then 'folded itself out' into what we see as 'mass' and 'space', as they need each other to be a working concept (spacetime' then space should be isotropic and without 'faults/rips' as that would circumvent us finding anything 'outside' it? So seen from a great 'height' with the vision of 'God' our spacetime could be totally different and no 'bauble' at all, but as we are only allowed certain ways of perceiving it will still be a 'whole' to us. And it would also mean that there is no least indivisible 'thingie' if we won't count a different topology to be that 'knot'. The forces we see I think is wholly 'spacetimes' :) and will have no meaning 'outside' of it. Kind of crazy huh.
 

Offline Vern

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #80 on: 20/03/2009 13:57:17 »
That works pretty well with me yor_on. We have space, time, and stuff. Absent any one of those three, we have essentially nothing.
 

Offline Vern

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #81 on: 20/03/2009 15:45:07 »
Quote from: DoctorBeaver
I don't see that we trash the laws of nature. We don't know for certain what those laws are, or even if universal laws actually exist. All we can say is that they appear to hold true for the visible universe. There may be regions (domains) outside our visible universe where the laws are very different.
You are correct; we don't know for certain; but we do know that we have never observed a violation of what we consider to be natures laws. We can imagine that nature is different than we have so far perceived it. But we may have perceived nature correctly, and just refuse to accept it in its natural beauty. :)

I'm thinking of our need to get into string theory and such.:)
 

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #82 on: 20/03/2009 21:20:43 »
Interesting :)  Myself I've thought of inflation as a 'topological defect' or maybe it's what came after inflation that is the 'topological defect' :) And that is as I think of space and matter as some kind of 'mirroring' of each other. So as soon we have 'matter' we will have 'space', and 'c'. But as I see it, that doesn't define what was before.


But how would you account for the fact that matter didn't exist in the very early universe. It was far too hot. Space was there, but not matter.
Drawing an absolute differentiation between matter and energy is a tricky proposition. Remember the famous formula? E=mc^2

But there plainly is a difference. You can stick your finger through energy, you can't do that to matter.

My point was that in the first 10-silly number seconds there was no matter at all. It hadn't formed. I think in physics terms the moment when matter began to form is called de-coupling. But space already existed when matter & radiation de-coupled.
 

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #83 on: 20/03/2009 23:03:29 »







But there plainly is a difference. You can stick your finger through energy, you can't do that to matter.


How would you then define matter, would the electron qualify?
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #84 on: 21/03/2009 08:51:45 »
I wouldn't define it. I don't presume to know enough about the subject. I've seen timelines and read articles that say that matter began forming at 10-n seconds after the BB. Maybe baryogenesis has something to do with it?
 

Ethos

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #85 on: 21/03/2009 17:51:01 »
I wouldn't define it.

Actually, Wikipedia defines it as:

Anything having both mass and volume. I believe that the electron meets both those criteria. Now we'll need to ask when the Leptons were created subsequent to the Big Bang won't we? Does anyone have this information here at Naked..................Ethos
 

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #86 on: 21/03/2009 18:23:37 »
The quark epoch was between 10-12 seconds and 10-6 seconds. As they are the fundamental particles of which hadrons are made they can possibly be classed as matter.
 

Ethos

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #87 on: 21/03/2009 22:15:35 »
The quark epoch was between 10-12 seconds and 10-6 seconds. As they are the fundamental particles of which hadrons are made they can possibly be classed as matter.
Astute observation DocB, and about that judgement, I would have to agree. That is, unless some evidence to support an earlier form of matter becomes clear to science............Ethos
 

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #87 on: 21/03/2009 22:15:35 »

 

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