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Author Topic: The salt debate  (Read 6550 times)

Offline DoctorBeaver

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The salt debate
« on: 17/05/2005 00:42:38 »
All the government advice I've heard in recent years says that we should cut back on salt intake. Yet I remember when I was young I suffered from bad leg cramps & our GP said it was due to lack of salt. I started putting more salt on my food & the cramps stopped.
Also, I lived in Africa for 2 years & saw many tourists suffering from desalination due to sweating. When we had that really hot summer here (in England) in about 1996 or 1997, my elderly mother became very lethargic & quite poorly. Her GP prescribed a tonic which had no effect whatsoever. I recognised the symptoms from the tourists in Africa so I got her some salt tablets & within a couple of days she was fine.
So, my question is, what is the truth about salt? It obviously has beneficial effects as witnessed by its curing my cramps. Do the adverse effects actually outweigh the benefits?


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Offline OldMan

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #1 on: 17/05/2005 04:19:18 »
It is not a question of who is right so much as a question of balance. The government will put out advise like that with the aim of reducing the intake of those members of the population who have a high level of salt in their diet not thinking of the people who may have a low salt intake and suffering deficiency.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #2 on: 17/05/2005 09:05:43 »
This might help you understand that it might be the type of salt we consume, rather than the quantity.

Andrew

Potassium Deficiency: Widespread and often Neglected
http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2004/05/03/potassium_deficiency_widespread_and_often_neglected.htm

The Magnesium Lottery
Magnesium deficiency is common and deadly. Diuretics, heart conditions, exercise, and the ECA stack influence magnesium status.

http://www.drumlib.com/dp/000014.htm
« Last Edit: 17/05/2005 09:40:49 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #3 on: 17/05/2005 11:57:01 »
Andrew - from that 1st link:-
Deliberately restricting your potassium intake makes you very ill, and thus vulnerable to hundreds of highly profitable medical "cures"

That was something that had occurred to me but I was hesitant to joint the conspiracy brigade. Quite why I sohuld have been so is a mystery to me as I hove not 1 iota of trust in pharmaceutical companies. After all, if we were all healthy, they'd be out of business.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #4 on: 17/05/2005 21:31:52 »
Welcome onboard Dr Beaver.

I believe the drug metformin killed my father, changing the cells in his liver and pancreas. I have done a lot of research into this particular drug. A friend of mine was showing exactly the same yellowing in his skin and eyes, and he told me he was on the very same drug as my father. I convinced him to go back on insulin and the yellowing vanished. He added that he felt much better than he has done in several years.

My wife’s mother is currently recovering in hospital, she was hallucinating and had to go into hospital to ease her off a phenomenal cocktail of prescription drugs.

She is 86. Now why do you think we removed 2 shopping bags full of a huge selection of drugs back to the chemist? The drugs most certainly did not do her any good, and the Hospital was appalled by the sheer volume of highly toxic chemicals she was feasting on.

How many more elderly people are going through the same process and how is this massive outlay being funded?

Perhaps, if the government controlled how much the drug cartel’s were allowed to siphon off the NHS, we might start to see some serious improvements in health care.

Something has got to be done to stop these people from profiting under the pretence of offering assistance to people in need of care.

Just the sheer molecular weight of these daily pills, which contain many different forms of salts would undoubtedly cause a significant rise in blood pressure, which is ironic really when you consider that some of these pills were given to assist her blood pressure.  Maybe, if the drug companies were clamped down on for offering incentives to people for prescribing these killers to the public, their massive multi billion pound industry might not be more profitable than the world oil sales.

I forget the exact figure, but the beta-interferon drugs, known as ABC drugs cost around 11k per year per person suffering from multiple sclerosis! How can we afford this? More to the point, who suffers as a result of this massive siphoning of NHS Funds? And who else is profiting from spoon-feeding a nation on chemicals worth more than their weight in gold?

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest

Andrew
 

Offline chris

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #5 on: 17/05/2005 22:13:29 »
11k a year for drugs is a pittance.

The number of people of interferon is not high compared with the number of NHS tourists we are treating with HIV. Anti-retrovirals per year per person weigh in at a hefty £15,000 - £20,000 per year. When you add to that the fact that many of these tourists have never worked in the UK, nor never will, that they are entitled to disability living allowance, housing, social needs etc, the annual bill is huge.

Yet Tony and his mates have allowed the number of immigrants to spiral out of control (300% increase since 1997). NHS tourism is a disaster, but no one dare say anything about it for fear of being branded a racist. It's not racism, it's called being fair. There are elderly people in the UK who worked all their lives, have fought for this country in the war, and are now being deprived of healthcare because it is being dished out to the populations of third world countries who lie their way in here by conveniently forgetting that they have HIV when they apply for their 'student visas'.

John Prescott keeps banging on about how many homes we need, but these 150,000 immigrants who are not removed annually must need somewhere to live. Surely, if there are people in this country who are homeless our priority should be to help them first ?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #6 on: 18/05/2005 10:43:10 »
Chris,
I think you are missing the point.

I gave only one example of one drug for one medical condition with a cost attached to it. Further backed up by the huge amount of additional drugs that these people are spoon-fed. All of these drugs are never tested against their interactions with other drugs, so in effect, no one knows what will happen when they are put together inside a person. Not to mention the cost of additional drugs, as even people with multiple sclerosis are given such cocktails. These combinations of drugs are tested on the general public! Much the same as computer hardware and software is. Let me put it simple. If you had six drugs taken by a person. This would present the people conducting trials with a phenomenal amount of research. Just the combinations alone would prove almost impossible to check for interactions and side effects. But then you would have to test each of the drugs at variable strengths, giving rise to National Lottery type odds of winning a compatible correlation in a cocktail.

The truth is simply, “WE DON’T KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING! The term Kill or cure rings an un-earthly bell.

Yet, if we look at complementary food substances, many of these have been tested on thousands of generations, and in combination with many other food substances, building up a huge knowledge base. And yet, as with the avocado, there is the highly toxic chemical Percin lurking.  

Again, you point to the immigrants as being responsible for the mutli-billion dollar drugs industrial greed. It is they that should be held responsible for the huge amounts of money they charge for drugs and jabs, which are largely ineffective and based often on shaky 2-3% efficacy in controlled studies, only to be removed from the shelves when the severity of their side effects becomes recognised, only to be replaced by equally dangerous drugs.

I do not blame the immigrants from trying to get health care. If I was in their shoes, I would probably doing all that I can to hang on to my own life, wouldn’t you?
And the traffic in immigrants is always viewed as a one-way event. This is simply not the case, There are millions of Brits in every corner of the world, some sunning themselves in Spain, others busking on the streets in France, many nurses and doctors working in hospitals in the USA, earning huge salaries.
And here in the UK, we have many people from other countries working in our hospitals as nurses and Doctors, filling the places left by the exodus of British trained nurses and physicians. So what is the difference?

I do agree with you that illegal immigration should be curbed, and people found to be abusing the political asylum legislation should be promptly deported. But it is very difficult to scrutinise every single case close enough to determine whether they are truly in danger of losing their lives if they return. How could one ever prove or disprove this situation?

Andrew


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Offline DrN

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #7 on: 18/05/2005 11:13:27 »
Don't get me started!! oh. too late. I agree with Chris about the immigration problem, NHS tourism needs to be stopped, we pay NIC in return for NHS treatment and thats the way it should be. I can't afford to pay other peoples medical bills for them. And these medicines can be stupidly expensive, but the companies that make them are businesses, and thus are in the business to make money. tricky ethics there.

The point made about Brits abroad isn't really comparable, Brits abroad generally are not eligible for benefits, council housing, maybe even healthcare (unless reciprocal agreements exist between the countries) etc, whereas all the immigrants pouring into our country get given all this and probably more! things that sometimes even british citizens struggle with.

The salt thing is true for me too, I don't add salt to anything, don't really eat salty or processed foods much, and do go through periods of getting cramps frequently. nothing a tube of pringles or a bag of nuts won't sort out! the thing is so many people survive on crisps and microwave meals, the amount of salt they ingest must be scary, and its these people that are targets of the 'low salt' advice.
 

Offline daveshorts

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #8 on: 18/05/2005 11:24:54 »
The drugs industry is not intrinsically evil, especially at the research end there are lots of people trying to make the world a better and healthier place. The sales end is another story, I have heard stories (from the vetinary side) of sales reps encouraging nurses by fair means and fowl to order large quantities of product which were not necessary.

 Is my impression right that all the trusts buy drugs individually? If this is the case why doesn't the NHS use it's massive purchasing power to drive the prices down like Tescos does.

  Although part of the problem is that testing drugs is so immensely expensive that the drug companies have to make huge profits to invest them in testing the drugs - maybe it would be cheaper if the testing was done by the government - although this wouldn't work with international developments... intelectual property is a hard problem as it costs lots to develop and nothing to manufacture, we haven't really learnt how to deal with it in a fair way.
 

Offline chimera

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #9 on: 18/05/2005 11:34:16 »
Anybody ever looked into exactly how enormously fantastically profitable drugs are?

Before we start thinking about not helping people because such drugs are 'too expensive'?

And don't forget, most drugs are based on known natural alkaloids or their derivatives, and most 'research' is not so much into 'novel' drugs but more into how to make existing ones even more profitably? Take taxol for instance.

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #10 on: 18/05/2005 12:02:17 »
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver

Andrew - from that 1st link:-
Deliberately restricting your potassium intake makes you very ill, and thus vulnerable to hundreds of highly profitable medical "cures"

That was something that had occurred to me but I was hesitant to joint the conspiracy brigade. Quite why I sohuld have been so is a mystery to me as I hove not 1 iota of trust in pharmaceutical companies. After all, if we were all healthy, they'd be out of business.

It wasn't me - a big boy did it & ran away



I have not 1 iota of trust in my own spelling now either... JEESH!
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #11 on: 18/05/2005 12:17:09 »
Chris & Andrew - I agree with you both.
As for cocktails, maybe my story isn't particularly spectacular but it also helps to illustrate the point. 5 years ago I was admitted to hospital with a chest infection. Whilst in I was diagnosed as having emphycema. Upon leaving hospital I was given anti-biotics + Salamol & Becotide inhalers.
Just a few days afterwards I was again re-admitted with a suspected heart attack. Subsequent tests showed this not to have been the case &, other tests being inconclusive, I was prescribed Warfarin in case I had a pulmonary embollism.
On leaving hospital that time I actually had 9 different medications to take (the inhalers, warfarin, prednisolone & others which I can't now remember). 2 of these were to mitigate the side-effects and/or interactions of other drugs.
When I finished the Warfarin some 6 months later I decided to stop taking everything. I felt no worse. The only medication I now take regularly is the becotide inhaler, & the salamol as & when I need it: which isn't very often.
Heaven only knows how much my prescriptions were costing the NHS (I was on sickness benefit at the time) & as I felt no worse when I stopped taking them, I can only conclude that they weren't making me any better. Cost justified? I believe not.

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #12 on: 18/05/2005 12:24:03 »
Andrew - most Western nations have reciprocal health care arrangements. If a German or Italian falls sick in England, the British government will pay for their treatment knowing that a Britain falling sick in that other country will recieve good, free care. That is not the case with 3rd world countries. Britains travelling to Africa, Asia etc need private health care insurance so it is inherently unfair that natives of those countries should be treated here free.
But the problem is what can be done about it? Do we send a bill to their respective governments? Chances are it wouldn't be paid. Do we turn people away simply because they MAY be sick? That would be inhumane. I don't see any humane alternative to continuing with the present system no matter how unjust it may seem.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #13 on: 18/05/2005 12:25:43 »
Isn't it strange how these threads progress. Who'd have thought that a post on salt intake would result in a debate about immigration policy!

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Offline DrN

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #14 on: 18/05/2005 12:54:36 »
My cousin has fibromyalgia and was taking about 25 different drugs daily, and was progressively worsening, no improvement at all, besides the stress of her benefits being removed because they say she's obviously fit and healthy and should be at work (are benefits office staff more medically qualified that GP's nowadays?)

she then decided to come off the drugs gradually by herself, and last time I saw her was down to 16 different drugs and showed marked improvement, even managing to walk a few steps. my theory is that although these drugs don't apparently react with each other pharmacologically (we hope) they may well react with the individual who is taking them. isn't that the basis for 'you may experience side effects' i.e. some people do and some people don't, meaning drugs have different effects on different people.

I don't know if my cousin will keep on getting better, but I suspect one or more of the drugs she was taking originally wasn't doing her much good.

it makes you think treatment should be more 'tailored' with drugs being introduced gradually, rather than being prescribed at the first sign of another symptom without an investigation into whats causing this symptom - a bona fide medical complaint or just the side effect of the other drugs already being taken.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #15 on: 18/05/2005 13:02:52 »
Lindsay - I hope your cousin continues to improve.
I totally agree with you about benefits office staff. I have a friend who suffers bouts of paranoid schizophrenia and he has been deemed fit for work. It's not unknown for him not to leave his flat for days on end so how the hell is he supposed to hold down a job!

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #16 on: 19/05/2005 16:13:04 »
Drug-Induced Disorders
EILEEN G. HOLLAND, PHARM.D., and FRANK V. DEGRUY, M.D.
University of South Alabama College of Medicine, Mobile, Alabama
Recent estimates suggest that each year more than 1 million patients are injured while in the hospital and approximately 180,000 die because of these injuries. Furthermore, drug-related morbidity and mortality are common and are estimated to cost more than $136 billion a year. The most common type of drug-induced disorder is dose-dependent and predictable. Many adverse drug events occur as a result of drug-drug, drug-disease or drug-food interactions and, therefore, are preventable.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/971101ap/holland.html

 

Offline daveshorts

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #17 on: 20/05/2005 00:30:05 »
I was injured at hospital - but this was falling over a bike rack after being told my appendectomy had gone ok, so I don't think it counts
 

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Re: The salt debate
« Reply #17 on: 20/05/2005 00:30:05 »

 

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