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Author Topic: Is time a force?  (Read 9164 times)


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Is time a force?
« Reply #25 on: 14/03/2009 20:34:44 »
I agree there is no real answer to the question, I've never seen a magnetic field or an electric field, but I have seen their effects experimentally, the iron fillings on a magnet aligning to produce a field, static electricity making my hair stand up, it's experiments like this that have led to Maxwells equations. The best experiment I ever did at college was Millikans oil drop experiment, it amazed me.

You have seen Effects and ascribed them to fields. You can't assert that the fields caused the effects. All you can say is that Magnetic Fields are a concept which gives consistent results when you base predictions on them. There are alternative models which also produce the same predictions.
No one has seen a field, as you say. They're in our heads - nowhere else.
You might as well say that the Maths of simple arithmetic has to be there to make two beans and two beans feed four mice.

Offline RayneSong

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Is time a force?
« Reply #26 on: 24/03/2009 02:56:57 »
I've come to view time as a ripple like effect when you get into time travel study.  Time is experienced as a slowing down of the quantum mechanics of our universe to a speed in which we can record and learn from.  All things are made of energy at the core level, and the universe is made of the same mechanisms at some level.  We merely have a scope, or spectrum of energy in which we are able to perceive.  In this sense, time is merely a perception, in which we can observe.  Perceptions can be argued to be multiple realities, and within a multiple reality perception time travel would become accessible through manipulation.  Often the truth about time remains hidden because of the Natural Spiritual Laws of Cause and Effect, yet if there were to be a conscious time traveler, a ripple effect could forever change the course of evolution.  Do you believe that a time traveler would have to travel in complete body to be able to manipulate time-lines, when our race is superstitious of Angels, and God, and beings that we are unable to regularly perceive?


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Is time a force?
« Reply #27 on: 25/03/2009 00:36:37 »
I have thought about the title and original post of this thread and I have to take issue, I'm afraid.
A Force is a defined quantity which relates mass, length and time in a specific way. Nothing more and nothing less.
Nothing else can be a Force - unless we are going to re-jig the whole of Science (and we just don't have time for that) or just to be poetic and metaphorical about the whole thing (which may be fun but it's not Science).

Offline LeeE

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Is time a force?
« Reply #28 on: 25/03/2009 14:24:30 »
I thought that the thread title was ok.

I can imagine frameworks/models where time and 'forces' might be reconciled, especially when we consider that, as you point out, and with which I agree, we don't really know what forces are anyway.

Offline amrit

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Is time a force?
« Reply #29 on: 10/04/2009 17:51:51 »
no time is not force, time is a run of clocks


People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present,
and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
Albert Einstein

Today in physics there are two fundamental approaches on time. First is that with clocks we measure time that is a consistent part of space. According to this approach clocks run in space-time as a basic physical reality. This approach has no experimental evidence, space-time as a fundamental physical reality in which material change run cannot be experimentally observed. Second approach is that time is not part of space; time is run of clocks in space. Each experiment conforms that with clocks we measure duration and numerical order of material change that run in space. There is no experimental evidence that clocks run in time, clock’s run itself is time. Run of time is relative; speed of clocks depends on strength of gravity force in different areas of space. Space itself is timeless (atemporal).
Key words: time, space, duration, numerical order, information

There is no experimental evidence for space-time existing as physical reality. In physical experiments one observes stream of material change in physical space only. Physical space is a medium in which massive bodies and elementary particles move. Space-time is not a physical reality, space-time is merely a mathematical model with which one describe stream of material change in physical space. With clocks we measure duration and numerical order of material change that run in physical space. Here time is defined as: Time is run of clocks in physical space. Physical space itself is timeless (atemporal). Travel into past are out of question.

Several researches confirm that space-time as an “arena” of the universe does not correspond to the physical reality. They propose “timeless space” as an arena of the universe.
 An article discussing that model of space-time is not corresponding physical universal space and could be replaced with atemporal fractal geometry of state space was recently published on arxiv (1).
An article discussing possibilities that space is timeless was recently published in arxiv: “We illustrate our proposal using a toy-model where we show how the Lorentzian signature and Nordstroem gravity (a diffeomorphisms invariant scalar gravity theory) can emerge from a timeless non-dynamical space” (2).
Time and clocks are man inventions. Motion is primary, time is secondary. Ernst Mach sad: “It is utterly beyond our power to measure the changes of things by time. Quite the contrary, time is an abstraction, at which we arrive by means of the changes of things”(3).
Time is a scientific tool that permits us to build up cosmological models of the universe. Time as a run of clocks plays no role in the universe. Julian Barbour is saying in his article “The Nature of Time”: “I will not claim that time can be definitely banished from physics; the universe might be infinite, and black holes present some problems for the time picture. Nevertheless, I think is entirely possible – indeed likely – that time as such plays no role in the universe” (3).

Relativity of Time
According to this understanding of time in the Special Theory of Relativity in a faster inertial system the speed of clocks (time) and material change in general, is lower than in a slower inertial system. In General Theory of Relativity in physical space with stronger gravity the speed of clocks (time) and material change is lower than in cosmic space with a weaker gravity field.
This understanding of time resolves the problem of twins. They do not live in time; they live in space only. A brother in a high-speed spaceship is getting older slower than his brother on Earth, but both are getting older in a physical space only and not in time. With clocks we measure biological changes in their bodies.

Direct Quantum Information
Some research shows that quantum direct communication is a real phenomenon: “We show how continuous-variable systems can allow the direct communication of messages with an acceptable degree of privacy. This is possible by combining a suitable phase-space encoding of the plain message with real-time checks of the quantum communication channel. The resulting protocol works properly when a small amount of noise affects the quantum channel. If this noise is non-tolerable, the protocol stops leaving a limited amount of information to a potential eavesdropper”(4).
Here it is considered that information does not move in space-time, it moves in physical space only. Physical space itself is immediate information medium between quanta.
Also in the EPR experiment physical space is immediate information medium between elementary particles. There is no information signal in form of photon or some other particle traveling between particles A and B. Time of information transfer between particle A and particle B is zero (5).

Causality problems for Fermi’s two-atom system
Physical space as an “immediate information medium” resolves the causality problem of Fermy two atoms system: “Let A and B be two atoms or, more generally, a ‘‘source’’ and a ‘‘detector’’ separated by some distance R. At t=0A is in an excited state, B in its ground state, and no photons are present. A theorem is proved that in contrast to Einstein causality and finite signal velocity the excitation probability of B is nonzero immediately after t=0. Implications are discussed”(6).
Excitation probability of B is nonzero because space in which atoms exists is an “immediate medium of excitation”. There is no time needed for information or excitation to pass from A to B. Time is only a measure for motion of excitation from atom A to atom B in physical space.

Immediate Physical Phenomena
According to understanding here physical phenomena can be immediate. One can also say “timeless” or “atemporal”. Time t for these phenomena to happen is zero. Experiment from which they conclude that an electron can tunnel through the potential barrier of a He atom in practically no time vas carried out recently (7).
An article on arxiv a system of diagrams is introduced that allows the representation of various elements of a quantum circuit, including measurements, in a form which makes no reference to time (hence ``atemporal'') (8).

   Material change does not run in time, they run in physical space only. Physical space itself is timeless (atemporal). Some physical phenomena that run atemporal physical space are immediate. Time for these phenomena to happen is zero. Clocks are scientific tools which measure time as a duration and numerical order of material change that run in timeless physical space.

1.   T.N.Palmer, The Invariant Set Hypothesis: A New Geometric Framework for the Foundations of Quantum Theory and the Role Played by Gravity, Submitted on 5 Dec 2008, last revised 17 Feb 2009,
2.   Florian Girelli, Stefano Liberati, Lorenzo Sindoni, Is the notion of time really fundamental? Submitted on 27 Mar 2009
3.   Julian Barbour, The Nature of Time, submitted on 20 Mar 2009,

4.   S. Pirandola and others, Quantum direct communication with continuous variables, A Leters Journal Exploring Frontier of Physics (2008)
5.   Fiscaletti D. Sorli A.S. Non-locality and the Symmetryzed Quantum Potential , Physics Essays,  21(4), (2008)

6.   Gerhard C. Hegerfeldt. Causality problems for Fermi’s two-atom system, Phys. Rev. Lett. 72, 596 - 599 (1994)

7.   P. Eckle, A. N. Pfeiffer, C. Cirelli, A. Staudte, R. Dörner, H. G. Muller, M. Büttiker, U. Keller, Attosecond Ionization and Tunneling Delay Time Measurements in Helium, Science,
Vol. 322. no. 5907, pp. 1525 – 1529 (2008)

8.   Robert B. Griffiths, Shengjun Wu, Li Yu, Scott M. Cohen, Atemporal diagrams for quantum circuits, submitted on 21 Jul 2005,

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Is time a force?
« Reply #29 on: 10/04/2009 17:51:51 »


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