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Author Topic: Can we measure 'expansion'  (Read 29396 times)

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Can we measure 'expansion'
« Reply #50 on: 17/03/2009 15:24:35 »
Jukris - There are many errors in what you say and, unfortunately, a lot that I can't understand.

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Also between people there exists empty space that does not expand or curve.

The space around any object with mass is warped. But with small masses like people it is so miniscule it is impossible to detect.

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These people in the centre sweat the most. This is excactly the same thing that happens without gravitation for example in the centre of the earth and in the centre of the sun.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

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The atomcores expand and open up expanding electrons and expanding photons and they beam their expanding energy as waves away from themselves. This is how it goes!

Electrons & photons do not expand. Nothing is just "beamed" away. Photons can be emitted but that's the nearest you'll get.

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It it also easy to realize that outside the visible universe the is an area, where is really much more energy than the visible universe has all together and the energy some where out there is much denser than than it is in a visible universe.

How is that easy to realise? We haven't a clue what is actually beyond the visible universe. We make the assumptin that it's the same as what we can see. This is called homogeneity.

As with anything that cannot be seen or measured, we have to make assumptions. But those assumptions have to be realistic. For instance, past the visible universe could be a giant cheese factory made of pink bricks; but that is not realistic. The only realistic assumption we can make about what is beyond the visible universe is that it is the same as the visible universe. Anything else would be pure fantasy.

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Because the MOVEMENT takes place towards a less dense area, then the visible universe MOVES as an entity away from that one point that is really far away from the visible universe and where the energy is much denser than it is in a visible universe.

But the visible universe is expanding in all directions. It isn't just moving away from something.

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You say, space start expanding faster same time when quasars born!

Who is saying that? I've certainly never heard it before. Space has been expanding since the instant of the Big Bang. Inflationary Theory says it went through a period of accelerated expansion from 10-36 seconds to 10-33 seconds but quasars didn't start forming until millions, or even billions, of years later.

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Because there born quasars, there start moving more energy between expanding photons and that energy get photons expanding faster!

There you go again. Where did you get the idea that photons expand? They don't.
 

Offline Vern

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Can we measure 'expansion'
« Reply #51 on: 17/03/2009 15:24:40 »
Quote from: DoctorBeaver
With his ability to "think outside the box" I wonder what he'd come up with if he could come back to life now and see all the new knowledge we have acquired, all the new theories that have been devised, since his death.
Since Einstein, like Schroedinger, hated Quantum Mechanics, I doubt that he would have liked any of the new string theories or their derivatives. :)

Schrodinger's Bio

Quote from: the link
It came as a result of his dissatisfaction with the quantum condition in Bohr's orbit theory and his belief that atomic spectra should really be determined by some kind of eigenvalue problem. For this work he shared with Dirac the Nobel Prize for 1933.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Can we measure 'expansion'
« Reply #52 on: 17/03/2009 15:30:22 »
Vern - I didn't say he would like any of it. In fact, I think he would find a lot of it rather distasteful.
 

Offline yor_on

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Can we measure 'expansion'
« Reply #53 on: 17/03/2009 15:39:47 »
I found a very nice tutorial to how to calculate redshift.
It's a whole site dedicated to it it seems, aimed for teachers.
http://cas.sdss.org/dr5/en/proj/teachers/advanced/hubble/specifics.asp
And the visual tools for it http://cas.sdss.org/dr5/en/tools/chart/
« Last Edit: 17/03/2009 15:51:17 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #54 on: 17/03/2009 15:47:28 »
Quote from: yor_on's link
The fact that redshift can be interpreted in two ways is a subtle but important point. When objects are close to Earth, their redshifts should be interpreted as coming from Doppler shifts due to relative motion. When objects are far from Earth, their redshifts should be interpreted as coming from the cosmological stretching of space. Be sure that students understand the concept of the stretching of space, because they will need it to understand the big bang in the next section.
Nice link yor_on; I see that we're now teaching that distant red shifts are due to cosmological stretching of space, and local ones are assumed to be Doppler.

The stretching of space is completely alien to my thought processes; I just can't get my head around it. I like good old solid 3D space and 1D time. But I realize I may be alone in that universe :)
« Last Edit: 17/03/2009 15:50:33 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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Can we measure 'expansion'
« Reply #55 on: 17/03/2009 15:57:47 »
I don't know Vern, myself I'm just trying to make sense of what 'mainstream physics' say :) And when it comes to 'expansion' I'm not sure what to think really. So I'm hoping for more 'input' on how we can test for it, maybe redshift is 'it'?

If we placed some measuring instruments at a precise distance of each other in outer space, shouldn't they too be expected to have a growing distance due to 'expansion'? We could try to send two satellites equipped with lasers for that exact measurement perhaps?

--
And make them stationary relative Earth of course.
Or maybe not::))
« Last Edit: 17/03/2009 16:07:03 by yor_on »
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #56 on: 17/03/2009 16:36:57 »
Quote from: yor_on
If we placed some measuring instruments at a precise distance of each other in outer space, shouldn't they too be expected to have a growing distance due to 'expansion'? We could try to send two satellites equipped with lasers for that exact measurement perhaps?
You're right; it would be difficult; I think there might be a problem with gravity considerations. If we allow the gravity within galaxies to curtail the expansion, we wouldn't observe expansion.
 

Offline yor_on

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Can we measure 'expansion'
« Reply #57 on: 17/03/2009 18:28:10 »
Ahem, you might have a point there.
A small and insignificant point.
In fact intrinsically small.
So small.

Ah.
SH*
 

Offline JukriS

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Can we measure 'expansion'
« Reply #58 on: 17/03/2009 18:48:04 »
 

Offline JukriS

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« Reply #59 on: 17/03/2009 18:54:31 »
Guess why that happend


"Pioneer anomaly
Main article: Pioneer anomaly

Analysis of the radio tracking data from the Pioneer 10 and 11 spacecraft at distances between 20–70 AU from the Sun has consistently indicated the presence of a small but anomalous Doppler frequency drift. The drift can be interpreted as due to a constant acceleration of (8.74 ± 1.33) × 10−10 m/s2 directed towards the Sun. Although it is suspected that there is a systematic origin to the effect, none has been found. As a result, there is growing interest in the nature of this anomaly.

[edit]"
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #60 on: 17/03/2009 19:03:17 »
This link from JukriS is an article about stuff that can not be within the known universe. Observation of speeds place a great attractor well outside the known bounds.

Quote from: JukriS link
Inflationary bubble

The scientists deduced that whatever is driving the movements of the clusters must lie beyond the known universe.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #61 on: 17/03/2009 19:08:40 »
Quote from: JukriS
Analysis of the radio tracking data from the Pioneer 10 and 11 spacecraft at distances between 20–70 AU from the Sun has consistently indicated the presence of a small but anomalous Doppler frequency drift. The drift can be interpreted as due to a constant acceleration of (8.74 ± 1.33) × 10−10 m/s2 directed towards the Sun. Although it is suspected that there is a systematic origin to the effect, none has been found. As a result, there is growing interest in the nature of this anomaly.
Very interesting; it couldn't be that nature just naturally expands light, could it? Not to worry, we can attribute it to the expansion of space and have yet another confirmation of the big bang theory. :)
 

Offline JukriS

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Can we measure 'expansion'
« Reply #62 on: 17/03/2009 19:09:04 »
This link from JukriS is an article about stuff that can not be within the known universe. Observation of speeds place a great attractor well outside the known bounds.

Quote from: JukriS link
Inflationary bubble

The scientists deduced that whatever is driving the movements of the clusters must lie beyond the known universe.



Yes, and guess what?

I profetian phenomena like DARK FLOW ALREADY 28.5.2008

iT IS WITH FINNISH



"Vauvagalakseja

http://www.ursa.fi/blogit/ta/index.php?title=hubble_paljasti_massiiviset_vauvagalaksi&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1


Ehkäpä nämä vauvagalaksit ovat peräisin eri energiakeskittymästä kuin vanhemmat galaksit. Jos, niin silloin vauvagalaksien liikkeestä voitaneen havaita tämä asia.

Molemmat energiakeskittymät siis sijaitsevat näkyvän maailmankaikkeuden ulkopuolella ja ne laajenevat, avautuen energia-aaltoja joilla on galaksiluonne.

Heitämpä siis ilmoille epäilyksen tästä!

RemonttiJukteri"


http://www.onesimpleprinciple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2259


.
« Last Edit: 17/03/2009 19:11:07 by JukriS »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Can we measure 'expansion'
« Reply #63 on: 17/03/2009 19:09:24 »
This link from JukriS is an article about stuff that can not be within the known universe. Observation of speeds place a great attractor well outside the known bounds.

Quote from: JukriS link
Inflationary bubble

The scientists deduced that whatever is driving the movements of the clusters must lie beyond the known universe.

Cosmic string in the cracks between domains. Millions of lightyears long and denser than a neutron star.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #64 on: 17/03/2009 19:15:18 »
Quote from: DoctorBeaver
Cosmic string in the cracks between domains. Millions of light years long and denser than a neutron star.
I have not seen this before DoctorBeaver. Is that part of one of the string theories?
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #65 on: 17/03/2009 19:18:16 »
No, it's a totally different beastie. Although they are predicted by string theory.

from Wikipedia:

A cosmic string is a hypothetical 1-dimensional (spatially) topological defect in various fields. Cosmic strings are hypothesized to form when the field undergoes a phase change in different regions of spacetime, resulting in condensations of energy density at the boundaries between regions. This is somewhat analogous to the imperfections that form between crystal grains in solidifying liquids, or the cracks that form when water freezes into ice. The phase changes that produce cosmic strings may have occurred in the earliest moments of the universe's evolution.

Cosmic strings, if they exist, would be extremely thin with diameters on the same order as a proton. They would have immense density, however, and so would represent significant gravitational sources. A cosmic string 1.6 kilometers in length may be heavier than the Earth. However general relativity predicts that the gravitational potential of a straight string vanishes: there is no gravitational force on static surrounding matter. The only gravitational effect of a straight cosmic string is a relative deflection of matter (or light) passing the string on opposite sides (a purely topological effect). A closed loop of cosmic string gravitates in a more conventional way. During the expansion of the universe, cosmic strings would form a network of loops, and their gravity could have been responsible for the original clumping of matter into galactic superclusters.
« Last Edit: 17/03/2009 19:20:59 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #66 on: 17/03/2009 19:19:43 »
No, it's a totally different beastie.
Quick; write it up and dust off the mantel spot for the Nobel:)
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #67 on: 17/03/2009 19:22:48 »
And an Italian scientist thinks he may have found 1:

extract from http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-07/ns-iia072705.php:

THE case for the existence of cosmic strings has just been boosted. If confirmed, these one-dimensional threads of energy that can span millions of light years could be the first sign of extra dimensions in the universe. Cosmic strings are predicted by string theory. They are gigantic counterparts of the strings that are thought to give rise to the fundamental particles of matter. String theory suggests that our universe may be a three-dimensional island, or "brane", and that the big bang was the result of a collision between our universe and another 3D brane. The collision would have given rise to one-dimensional cosmic strings, and finding such a string would strengthen the theory and support the idea that extra dimensions exist.

The immense energy of a cosmic string would warp the space-time around it. If one existed somewhere between us and a distant galaxy, say, the warped space-time would create two possible paths for the light from the galaxy to reach Earth. This would result in two identical images of the galaxy in our sky, just a whisker apart. Last year, that's exactly what Mikhail Sazhin of Capodimonte Astronomical Observatory in Naples, Italy, and the Sternberg Astronomical Institute in Moscow, Russia, and his colleagues found. They named the pair CSL-1 (New Scientist, 18 December 2004, p 30).
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #68 on: 17/03/2009 19:31:15 »
Okay; now I remember coming across that notion several years ago. I didn't think it would catch on.

Gravitational lensing does happen; I didn't see in the article linked how they determined that the two star images they observed were not due to gravitational lensing of the more familiar kind.
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #69 on: 17/03/2009 19:50:10 »
Jukris, what exactly is your point?

You say you 'prophesied' this due to what?
Give it some time and make it into a comprehensive text.
That will make it easier for me to see how you think here.

So give it some time and build it up to a 'whole' text.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #70 on: 17/03/2009 20:22:31 »
SHall we throw semilocal strings into the mix too? Shall we? Eh? Eh?
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #71 on: 17/03/2009 20:42:38 »
Are you saying that we should string 'it' on:)
I would much prefer a coherent discussion.
Cutting to the cheese, like a laser.
Not that I do that, of course.

Ah, cut cheese with a laser that is.

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(Although it would be nifty:)
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #72 on: 17/03/2009 22:33:05 »
I'm still trying to figure how strings can be semi-local. The edit box won't even accept it without the dash :)
 

Offline JukriS

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« Reply #73 on: 18/03/2009 08:24:16 »
Sorry abot my english. I know, is terrible.

I see news about baby galaxies 28.5.2008.

Then i just think about, maybe this baby galaxies are from some other giant expanding energyconcentration, what usual and bigger galaxies are from.

This giant expanding energyconcenrtration expanding and emit energywaves who have a nature of galaxies!

They are very far away outside visible Universe!


feature=channel_page



.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #74 on: 18/03/2009 10:18:55 »
I'm still trying to figure how strings can be semi-local. The edit box won't even accept it without the dash :)

http://crd.lbl.gov/~borrill/defects/semilocal.html

Some of the animations are interesting. The best 1 is to scroll down to where it says "The full simulation volume (t = 20 - 2000, isosurface = 1/2) " and click on the link.
 

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« Reply #74 on: 18/03/2009 10:18:55 »

 

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