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Author Topic: Could vitamin D kill viruses?  (Read 84229 times)

Offline Bored chemist

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #50 on: 01/09/2009 19:33:20 »
So Diabetes is related to the weather? That's interesing.
Of course, if it were caused by a virus it would be expected to occur in "outbreaks" like 'flu or chickenpox.
 

Offline Kevan Gelling

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #51 on: 03/09/2009 14:46:20 »
I'm unable to access the research document in order to find out if any outbreaks were identified

The BBC News article on viruses and diabetes type 1 links diabetes to enteroviruses, although the researchers were unable to identify which type.

From the article:
Quote
... enteroviruses - a common family of viruses which cause symptoms such as vomiting and diarrhoea

Here some more information on enteroviruses from Wikipedia:
Quote
Human enteroviruses (family Picornaviridae) infect millions of people worldwide each year, resulting in a wide range of clinical outcomes ranging from unapparent infection to mild respiratory illness (common cold), hand, foot and mouth disease, acute hemorrhagic conjunctivitis, aseptic meningitis, myocarditis, severe neonatal sepsis-like disease, and acute flaccid paralysis.

From Wikipedia on hand, foot and mouth disease:
Quote
It typically occurs in small epidemics in nursery schools or kindergartens, usually during the summer and autumn months.

So maybe it does occur in outbreaks.  A statistician is needed to take the researchers' seasonal diabetes figures and quickly identify whether they have such a pattern or not.
 

Offline Kevan Gelling

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #52 on: 08/09/2009 14:07:11 »
Another one, this time prostate cancer

From Science Daily - First Evidence Of Virus In Malignant Prostate Cells: XMRV Retrovirus Linked To More Aggressive Tumors

From Medline:
Quote
Life course sun exposure and risk of prostate cancer: population-based nested case-control study and meta-analysis

...

Our data and meta-analyses provide limited support for the hypothesis that increased exposure to sunlight may reduce prostate cancer risk. The findings warrant further investigation because of their implications for vitamin D chemoprevention trials.

2009 UICC
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #53 on: 08/09/2009 19:27:47 »
"Our data and meta-analyses provide limited support "
 

Offline Kevan Gelling

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #54 on: 15/09/2009 13:00:51 »
And another for multiple sclerosis

From Science Daily - Linking Epstein-Barr Virus To Multiple Sclerosis

From Times - Vitamin D is ray of sunshine for multiple sclerosis patients

From PubMed

Quote
Vitamin D and multiple sclerosis

Recently, it has been clearly demonstrated that exogenous 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3, the hormonal form of vitamin D3, can completely prevent experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE), a widely accepted mouse model of human multiple sclerosis (MS).

This finding has focused attention on the possible relationship of this disease to vitamin D. Although genetic traits certainly contribute to MS susceptibility, an environmental factor is also clearly involved. It is our hypothesis that one crucial environmental factor is the degree of sunlight exposure catalyzing the production of vitamin D3 in skin, and, further, that the hormonal form of vitamin D3 is a selective immune system regulator inhibiting this autoimmune disease.

Thus, under low-sunlight conditions, insufficient vitamin D3 is produced, limiting production of 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3, providing a risk for MS. Although the evidence that vitamin D3 is a protective environmental factor against MS is circumstantial, it is compelling. This theory can explain the striking geographic distribution of MS, which is nearly zero in equatorial regions and increases dramatically with latitude in both hemispheres.

It can also explain two peculiar geographic anomalies, one in Switzerland with high MS rates at low altitudes and low MS rates at high altitudes, and one in Norway with a high MS prevalence inland and a lower MS prevalence along the coast. Ultraviolet (UV) light intensity is higher at high altitudes, resulting in a greater vitamin D3 synthetic rate, thereby accounting for low MS rates at higher altitudes. On the Norwegian coast, fish is consumed at high rates and fish oils are rich in vitamin D3.

Further, experimental work on EAE provides strong support for the importance of vitamin D3 in reducing the risk and susceptibility for MS. If this hypothesis is correct, then 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 or its analogs may have great therapeutic potential in patients with MS.

More importantly, current research together with data from migration studies opens the possibility that MS may be preventable in genetically susceptible individuals with early intervention strategies that provide adequate levels of hormonally active 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 or its analogs.

More MS research can be found here

« Last Edit: 15/09/2009 13:09:45 by Kevan Gelling »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #55 on: 15/09/2009 19:41:24 »
From time to time I get a cold- It's a viral infection.
I get a headache and a runny nose so I take one of the over-the-counter remedies that are on the market. The symptoms are reduced.
Nobody claims that the aspirin and decongestant are killing the cold virus.

Vitamin D may well cure the symptoms of MS and (at least some cases of) MS may be caused by a virus. (And if that's generally true then it's certainly interesting, in spite of the toxicity of vitamin D.)
That doesn't mean that vitamin D kills the virus.
 

Offline rhade

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #56 on: 16/09/2009 15:50:52 »
Call me ultra picky, but I don't think that "cure" the symptoms is a good choice of word. I think "treat" the symptoms is better, as, if I am interpretting your meaning correctly, Boredchemist, you are stating that the virus is still present, but you feel a certain amount of relief from the symptoms.

Also, with most of these over the counter cold remedies, any relief is probably largely a placebo effect. Have you ever noticed how the wording on the package always says "remedy", not "cure"? No breaking the law by making totally false advertising claims!
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #57 on: 16/09/2009 19:19:39 »
I agree that remmedies (which offer symptomatic relief) are different from cures (which remove the root cause of the problem).
I'm not sure which category this falls into "Recently, it has been clearly demonstrated that exogenous 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3, the hormonal form of vitamin D3, can completely prevent experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE)".
It's asserted to be preventative but I doubt they mean "take Vitamin D once and never get troubled by EAE" in the way that a measles jab is preventative- take it once and forget about measles forever.
It's difficult to know, from that quote, what this effect really is. I'm pleased to see that some progress is being made in this field.
Anyway this thread's about Vit D killing viruses and that report isn't an answer to that question.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2009 19:23:38 by Bored chemist »
 

Offline Kevan Gelling

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #58 on: 18/09/2009 12:35:51 »
From time to time I get a cold- It's a viral infection.
I get a headache and a runny nose so I take one of the over-the-counter remedies that are on the market. The symptoms are reduced.
Nobody claims that the aspirin and decongestant are killing the cold virus.

Vitamin D may well cure the symptoms of MS and (at least some cases of) MS may be caused by a virus. (And if that's generally true then it's certainly interesting, in spite of the toxicity of vitamin D.)
That doesn't mean that vitamin D kills the virus.

My intention hasn't been to suggest that vitamin D3 literally kills the virus rather that it is improves the killing mechanism.  In this respect, the thread title is a tad misleading.

Maybe the title should have been "Does a high level (>50ng/mL) of 25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D] modulate the immune system such that it can better fight bacterial and viral infections?  Thus do the empirical correlations that exist between 25(OH)D levels and certain diseases - MS, certain cancers, diabetes, heart disease, schizophrenia, and others - allow us to infer that those diseases are caused by infection?" but it's not as catchy.

 

Offline rhade

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #59 on: 22/09/2009 15:51:56 »
Of course, it is possible to overdose on vitamins.
 

Offline Variola

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #60 on: 23/09/2009 09:23:14 »
Perhaps the angle would have been better if it had focussed on reported cases of high Vit D3 levels having some significant benefit on a condition? With subsequent discussion and analysis after. 
 

Offline Kevan Gelling

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #61 on: 10/11/2009 22:58:35 »
The answer to the question "Could vitamin D kill viruses?" is YES

As iko pointed out in this post, vitamin D is involved in the production of human cathelicidin - LL-37.

Quote


We report for the first time that LL-37 demonstrates significant antiviral inhibitory activity (>98% inhibition) against HSV-1 [Herpes Simplex Virus Type 1], the leading viral cause of corneal blindness in industrialized countries.

Additionally, we report for the first time that LL- 37 demonstrated statistically significant inhibitory activity in vitro against Ad19 [Adenovirus], a major cause of conjunctivitis and epidemic keratoconjunctivitis in local and global epidemics.


Quote


The current study is the first to identify human and murine cathelicidins as innate antimicrobial peptides capable of interfering in vitro and in vivo with replication of vaccinia virus.



Quote


Here we demonstrate that LL-37 inhibits HIV-1 replication in PBMC, including primary CD4+ T cells


 

Offline Bored chemist

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #62 on: 11/11/2009 07:09:22 »
LL37 isn't vit D.
Imagine someone who's body failed to make LL37 for some reason. All the Vit D in the world wouldn't help him by killing viruses.
Clearly someone who is deficient in Vit D is going to be in poor health and less able to fight infection but that's hardly the same as saying vitamin D kills viruses.

Sadly there are many people in the world who do not get enough to eat. This leaves them open to all sorts of infections including viruses.
It's fair to say that chocolate cake would help them simply because it would provide calories (and some vitamins + proteins etc).

Do you claim that chocolate cake kills viruses?
« Last Edit: 11/11/2009 18:51:20 by Bored chemist »
 

Offline iko

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #63 on: 12/11/2009 20:53:31 »
Bored lawyer,

We are playing with words, aren't we?
I could find many examples to justify that someone somewhere might dare say:
"Vitamin D kills viruses"
We agree with you: it may do it INDIRECTLY.
Vaccinations kill diseases, eliminating them by immune activation as well.
Don't be too fussy. Please  ;)

ikod
« Last Edit: 12/11/2009 20:57:55 by iko »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #64 on: 12/11/2009 21:42:58 »
So, you do think that, albeit indirectly, chocolate cake kills viruses.
Fair enough. My opinion is different.
Incidentally, I think that many aspects of the immune system depend on one or more vitamins in one way or another. For example it's fair to say that without our skin we wuld be much more susceptible to viral attack. Vitamin C is vital in the production of the collagen which holds that skin together.
Without vitamin C we would be more prone to viral infection.
Does that make vitamin C a viruscide?
Do all vitamins kill viruses?
In the end, what doesn't kill them?

The problem with accepting Kevan's post as evidence thet Vit D kills viruses is that it leads to the view that damned near everything else does. That rather reduces the meaning of the statement.
 

Offline Kevan Gelling

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #65 on: 23/11/2009 20:19:27 »
"I didn't kill him, your honour, it was the bullet.  I only pulled the trigger!"

VDRs (vitamin D receptors) occur next to CAMP (cathelicidin anti-microbial peptide) genes and up-regulate them (turn them on) in response to infection.

Guilty!
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #66 on: 24/11/2009 07:08:15 »
 The statement "I didn't kill him, your honour, it was the bullet.  I only pulled the trigger!"
Might be made in court by the accused- but it's not going to get him very far.

On the other hand, the statement "Your honour, the cause of death was a gunshot wound to chest." is likely to come from a scientist and would be accepted.
There's a difference between cause and culpability which is why we generally accept that very young children and people with mental health problems may not be guilty of murder, even when it's clear they killed someone. Of course, unless you claim that vitamin D has free will and is responsible for its actions this whole idea is a strawman.


I guess it's entirely possible that someone could fatally shoot someone accidentally because the bullet was faulty.
For example the security services sometimes use hollow point amunition - the idea being that it doesn't generally go through someone.
Imagine that a security officer on a plane shot a terrorist but, unfortunately, because the bullet was faulty, it went through the terrorist and also killed a bystander.
In that instance, the claim "it wasn't me; it was the bullet", would be a legitimate reason.

I take it you are planning to prescribe chocolate cake as a viruscide.
« Last Edit: 24/11/2009 20:14:20 by Bored chemist »
 

Offline iko

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #67 on: 24/11/2009 22:07:12 »
So, you do think that, albeit indirectly, chocolate cake kills viruses.
Fair enough. My opinion is different.
Incidentally, I think that many aspects of the immune system depend on one or more vitamins in one way or another. For example it's fair to say that without our skin we wuld be much more susceptible to viral attack. Vitamin C is vital in the production of the collagen which holds that skin together.
Without vitamin C we would be more prone to viral infection.
Does that make vitamin C a viruscide?
Do all vitamins kill viruses?
In the end, what doesn't kill them?


Few vitamin deficiencies lead to an infection as cause of death.
Scurvy is one: either infection or cardiac arrest (not hemorrhage as commonly thought).
Thiamine (B1) deficiency (beri-beri) gives you heart failure or nervous system damage from confusion to paralysis and coma. Immune defense still works fine, but cell 'batteries' run out of energy in crucial organs, so patients die before suffering any viral or bacterial attack.
When rickets was common in children, a 13times higher incidence of pneumonia had been reported.

Help.  Few years ago I posted a question about vitD deficiency in leukemia:
"Could vitamin D HELP in leukemia treatment?"
Similarly, "could vitamin D help in killing viruses?"
should be the new title of this thread...  ;)
To have a proper discussion around here.

Dear Kevan, it's up to you, this is your topic. 
« Last Edit: 24/11/2009 22:44:43 by iko »
 

Offline Kevan Gelling

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #68 on: 25/11/2009 12:53:47 »
And a change of title would placate BC?  I suspect his mind is made up (vitamin = alternative medicine = cr*p) which is why he is playing Pendantic Semantics.

The dictionary definition of kill is 'cause the death of'.  No free will or culpability is required.  And in the example, the security officer did 'cause the death of', i.e. kill, the bystander.

BC aside, if anyone is interested reading more on vitamin D and cathelicidin try this recent article on the genetic history of the CAMP gene - Exaptation of an ancient Alu short interspersed element provides a highly conserved vitamin D-mediated innate immune response in humans and primates (Gombart et al., 2009) - "VDR-signaling increases production of hCAP18/LL-37 protein (encoded by the CAMP gene) to kill the pathogen".  The References section contains a comprehensive list of recent research in the field.
 

Offline iko

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #69 on: 25/11/2009 18:18:34 »
Thank you so much Kevan,

I'm going to print the whole article for a good reading...

"1,25(OH)(2)D(3) thus directly regulates antimicrobial peptide gene expression, revealing
 the potential of its analogues in treatment of opportunistic infections."

...a promising conclusion indeed!   :)
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #70 on: 25/11/2009 18:51:44 »
"I suspect his mind is made up (vitamin = alternative medicine = cr*p)"
An odd thing for you to suspect. I have made it quite clear that I know that vitamins have a vital role.
What my mind is made up about is the assertion that "vitamins can do magic" is crap.
Take some suitable virus, lets say ebola. Shake it up with some vitamin D then mix it into some saline and inject it. Feel free to extract the excess vitamin D if you are worried about its toxicity.

If you do that then if you ask me a week later, I will do the same using bleach (which does kill viruses) rather than Vit D.

 

Offline Kevan Gelling

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #71 on: 29/11/2009 20:15:52 »
What my mind is made up about is the assertion that "vitamins can do magic" is crap.

Vitamin D is unique amongst vitamins because it's a pre-hormone and is part of the endocrine system.  Genetic research from the last 10-20 years has revealed that vitamin D (as calcitriol) regulates many important functions throughout the body, including immunity, inflammation and cell propagation.  These functions are linked to a number of morbidities.

Ecological studies link latitude and skin colour to 'vitamin D' morbidities; cohort studies link low vitamin D levels with 'vitamin D' morbidities; epidemiological studies show high levels of vitamin D deficiency by latitude and by skin colour; the few RCTs involving large dose supplementation show that vitamin D significantly reduces 'vitamin D' morbidities.

Not "vitamins", just vitamin D; not magic, just science.
 

Offline iko

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #72 on: 29/11/2009 22:13:27 »
What my mind is made up about is the assertion that "vitamins can do magic" is crap.

Vitamin D is unique amongst vitamins because it's a pre-hormone and is part of the endocrine system.  Genetic research from the last 10-20 years has revealed that vitamin D (as calcitriol) regulates many important functions throughout the body, including immunity, inflammation and cell propagation.  These functions are linked to a number of morbidities.

Ecological studies link latitude and skin colour to 'vitamin D' morbidities; cohort studies link low vitamin D levels with 'vitamin D' morbidities; epidemiological studies show high levels of vitamin D deficiency by latitude and by skin colour; the few RCTs involving large dose supplementation show that vitamin D significantly reduces 'vitamin D' morbidities.

Not "vitamins", just vitamin D; not magic, just science.


You are exactly right Kevan,

but we have to tell the whole story:
why such a simple and cheap remedy is coming so late in modern medicine?
I can give you some good reasons to 'justify' such a delay:
- Vitamin D is not a vitamin, but a steroid hormone acting on specific cell receptors.
- The dosage in serum is tricky and expensive: large studies are coming out only now.
- Normal levels are expressed in ng/mL or nmol/ml, just for the fun of it...
- The active form, calcitriol, has been improperly used instead of replenishing 25-OHvitD pool.
- Toxicity has been overestimated: 400U/day failed where 2000U/day are making the trick.
- Cholecalciferol or vitamin D3 is a 'generic' drug, too cheap to support clinical trials.

Do you want to play the doctor?
Just read this amazing case report, free-fulltext from Canada:


Now look for a chronic-back-pain patient, get a history of lack of sunlight exposure, no cod liver oil or vitamin D supplements and suggest her/him to have 25-OHvitaminD tested.
If the result is below 20 ng/ml...Bingo!  Send her/him to a doctor for a 50kU/week x 8weeks prescription.  A clinician will exclude any condition of vitD toxicity or intolerance and monitor calcium levels if necessary.
The following two-three weeks might be really magic for that patient...
Unbelievable? On my part, I don't think so anymore!  ;)



Improvement of chronic back pain or failed back surgery with vitamin D repletion: a case series.

Schwalfenberg G.

Department of Family Medicine, University of Alberta, Canada. gschwalf@telus.net

This article reviews 6 selected cases of improvement/resolution of chronic back pain or failed back surgery after vitamin D repletion in a Canadian family practice setting. Pub Med was searched for articles on chronic back pain, failed back surgery, and vitamin D deficiency. Chronic low back pain and failed back surgery may improve with repletion of vitamin D from a state of deficiency/insufficiency to sufficiency. Vitamin D insufficiency is common; repletion of vitamin D to normal levels in patients who have chronic low back pain or have had failed back surgery may improve quality of life or, in some cases, result in complete resolution of symptoms.

J Am Board Fam Med.2009 Jan-Feb;22(1):69-74.
« Last Edit: 30/11/2009 12:00:40 by iko »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #73 on: 30/11/2009 18:26:59 »
Just in case you all missed this the first time I posted it.
Take some suitable virus, lets say Ebola. Shake it up with some vitamin D then mix it into some saline and inject it. Feel free to extract the excess vitamin D if you are worried about its toxicity.

If you do that then if you ask me a week later, I will do the same using bleach (which does kill viruses) rather than Vit D

Unless you are prepared to take part in this experiment you are accepting that vitamin D doesn't kill viruses.
What you need is a thread called something like "Vitmin D odes some really interesting things including modifying the human immune response."
 

Offline iko

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Could vitamin D kill viruses?
« Reply #74 on: 30/11/2009 22:16:34 »
"Vitmin D odes"...oh sure!  ;D


« Last Edit: 30/11/2009 22:20:32 by iko »
 

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