The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People  (Read 13415 times)

Offline goofkid

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/cooldanyal/science_ideas.html
Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« on: 27/05/2005 02:58:17 »
http://http://science.howstuffworks.com/cryonics1.htm

This article just amazed me...i mean, science has made so much progress. Scientists are trying to bring back people that are "dead"!!
That's pretty scary if you think about it. I wonder if they'll ever succeed.

Just think, dead people waking up in like a 100 years...


Goofkid


 

Offline Ultima

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
    • View Profile
    • My Homepage
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #1 on: 27/05/2005 17:46:48 »
Erm my understanding is they don't bring you back because they can't ;). It's a big fat lie for rich people to think they will live forever. Mainly because the way they freeze people pretty much destroys there cells, it’s like when you freeze a lettuce and then let it defrost, it goes all squigee and just falls apart to mush. To successfully cryogenically freeze someone you want to use some sort of protein or other chemical that acts like antifreeze to keep ice crystal growth to a minimum (ok so I read around they do this, but I doubt it works all that well :P you need something with nanoscale control within the cell). This way cell membranes won’t rupture causing damage.  Some cool frogs that live high up in mountains do this, they let there whole body freeze, and some rodents do to, but to a lesser extent. As far as I know, its highly unlikely the people who are frozen at present will ever be "resurrected" until very far into the future where we have some awesome machine that can pretty much rebuild your whole body from scratch (not likely). In fact at present we haven’t even got a good way of transporting ice cream! Ice cream has to be kept frozen when transporting because if it melts and re-freezes it goes into a giant solid block (large ice crystals) and loses the nice creamy (small ice crystal) texture. This is because when ice cream is made its jostled about to keep crystal growth to a minimum. If we can't do ice cream, we sooooooo can’t do humans...  Plus the brain is so un imaginably delicate I wouldn’t think that synapses would last long under that kind of condition indefinitely, obviously I’m just guessing. I think I’d rather be burned when I die than frozen, plastification might be good though if they could reverse it with some neat way of tagging plastics n stuff.

I tell you what im likely to live 50 years from now, by my reckoning we will have awesome computing power near to my death, just plug all the dead people in to some heaven like “matrix” computer that orbits the sun and is powered by the solar wind. In fact i'll spend the next 50 years inventing/making it ;) but you will have to give me $500 yearly membership fee while I work. Plus with my neato idea which im gunna call: Space Heaven Intelligence Transmogrification, S.H.I.T. for short you can be re invented as who you are on the "inside". So all those peeps that are unhappy in life, are liberated by my amasing and totally accessible product. For a mere $500 a year you to could be the cybar hotty you always wanted to be in life! What’s that, you don’t like the people who are in cybar heaven! No worries have your own personal “world instance” populated by your ideal society; meet the partner of your dreams! All for a mere $500 a year!

Man if I made that I would be so minted… also it would be great, my kind of after life :D. Plus there wouldn't be any need for upgrading the processing power of the computer, since as I add more people i'll just reduce their time share of heaven accordingly... it's not like they are gunna notice ;) Omg this is the sweetest business idea I have ever come up with.

wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 27/05/2005 18:18:10 by Ultima »
 

Offline goofkid

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/cooldanyal/science_ideas.html
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #2 on: 27/05/2005 19:27:21 »
Lol...seems like your pretty advanced in science looking at your ideas. ;)...Who knows, sciece seems to have no end. In 50-100 years, many more science marvels will have been invented [8D]. It's just a matter of time. Too bad i won't be alive to see all that. :(

Goofkid
 

Offline PhirePhly

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #3 on: 29/05/2005 11:58:18 »
I had a buddy in HS who froze a rat in liquid nitrogen and revived it.  He knocked it out with chloroform and just dipped the poxy thing until it was hard as a rock.  

Don't know if the rat suffered any ill effects as a result because, well, it was a rat - we weren't on speaking terms and I was in HS and far more concerned with girls than with rats.

He had a goldfish that he froze and revived three times (it died of ick, later).

I don't know how he revived the rat, but the goldfish, he just dropped it in it's bowl and let it thaw.

Thanks,
 
L. Lisov
 

Offline Ultima

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
    • View Profile
    • My Homepage
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #4 on: 29/05/2005 15:27:22 »
LOL cool! but also cruel, poor little rat:P

wOw the world spins?
 

Offline goofkid

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/cooldanyal/science_ideas.html
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #5 on: 29/05/2005 15:38:03 »
Wow Dude! Reviving a dead rat at HS level is pretty darn good! ;) Over time, we'd be able to do something similar to human beings too. Agree or not?

Goofkid
 

Offline Ultima

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
    • View Profile
    • My Homepage
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #6 on: 29/05/2005 16:25:58 »
Some thing tells me that the rat would have died.. putting it straight into something that cold woulda destroyed it. Reviving a person would be hard enough in the future, but with the added problem that all the people are dead or ill doesn't help. I think cryostasis for long stella travel is far more likely, where the body is chilled right down but not frozen.

wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 29/05/2005 18:24:48 by Ultima »
 

Offline goofkid

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/cooldanyal/science_ideas.html
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #7 on: 29/05/2005 17:11:39 »
quote:
Originally posted by Ultima

Some thing tells me that the rat would have died.. putting it straight into something that cold woulda destroyed it.
wOw the world spins?


I agree :D. Accoring to my level of thinking, the rat cells would have been destroyed due to the sudden extreme temperature change. But I might be wrong because I don't have enough knoledge on this subject.

Goofkid
 

Offline PhirePhly

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #8 on: 29/05/2005 20:43:21 »
I've always thought that you could probably do something with the electrolytic concentrations in the body to drop the temperature below freezing without actually creating any water ice in the system.

I do know that there has been some recent work done in cryo to slow brain damage in cases where blood loss was an issue and surgical repair was necessary but there wasn't time without some drastic measures being taken.

Thanks,
 
L. Lisov
 

drkev

  • Guest
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #9 on: 01/06/2005 16:19:13 »
Doing some pre-hospital care training right now and we have been learning that creatures with small body mass are generally quite good at hibernation which explains why so many small children survive long immersion in ice cold water. After 45 minutes immersion people have been known to survive following reuscitation with no ill effect.

Liquid nitrogen would immediately destroy a rat and I suspect the story is an urban legend.

I think the answer lies in lowering the body temperature slowly and giving some kind of "anti freeze" to the body. As to whether the body will be reanimated I doubt it. What exactly is death? How is death reversed? The answer is theological and not scientific.

I do not think we will ever be able to find everlasting life because I do not think it should exist. After all death is nature's way of keeping the population low enough for us to survive without destroying each other.

Nature has not discovered immortality and neither do I believe will we.

Live long and Love life

Kevin Fisher
 

Offline chris

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5336
  • Thanked: 65 times
  • The Naked Scientist
    • View Profile
    • The Naked Scientists
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #10 on: 01/06/2005 18:50:32 »
Kev has hit the nail on the head. When you freeze something, unless you are an artic ice-fish or one of a group of cold-adapted amphibians, all of which contain a form of natural antifreeze, the water that makes up at least 60% of our body weight (two-thirds of which is inside our cells) forms huge ice crystals with jagged edges.

One only has to consider what an iceberg did the Titanic to appreciate that cellular ice crystals are equally destructive to our tissues. As soon as freezing occurs the ice crystals punch enormous holes in the walls of cells which then fall apart and spill their contents as soon as thawing occurs.

For the same reason, frozen vegetables are a much less healthy option because freezing disrupts their cellular structure, encouraging all of the nutrients to leach out into the cooking water, rather than into you.

But there are ways to prevent this from happening. It's possible these days to 'bank' stem cells collected from your umbilical cord at birth, for later use in the event of illness as an adult.

Newborn blood is richly endowed with pluripotential stem cells capable of turning into a wide range of adult differentiated tissues such as heart muscle, bone marrow, brain cells, insulin-producing cells and so on. These cells are stored over liquid nitrogen at -200 degrees celsius and remain viable for extended periods of time (we presume a life time) yet can be thawed out (gently) and infused into a patient to replace a diseased bone marrow, for instance in the context of leukaemia.

This is achieved by perfusing the cells with an agent such as DMSO (dimethyl sulphoxide) which (at therapeutic concentrations) is non-toxic and can cross cell membranes very efficiently to penetrate the insides of cells. Once within a cell the DMSO inserts itself between water molecules, preventing the formation of chunky jagged intracellular ice crystals, and hence protecting the cell from ice-damage.

This is easy enough to do to a bag of cells, but a whole live human is another matter.

And besides, the people who are currently being cryo-preserved are already dead, and they presumably died for some reason ! So you'd need to put that right first, before evening beginning to worry about bringing them back to life !

Another useful link :

Radio show featuring an interview with Soren Muller Bested who runs an umbilical cord blood stem cell bank in Singapore

Chris

"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
 - Groucho Marx
« Last Edit: 01/06/2005 18:51:55 by chris »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #11 on: 04/06/2005 13:29:22 »
Remember reading about a couple of toddlers that were frozen and made a recovery, thought it might add a little more confusion to this subject.

Although extremely rare, this is not the first time a Canadian child has been revived after being frozen for so long.

It happened in Saskatchewan seven years ago, when a two-year-old named Karlee Kosolofski was locked outside in even colder temperatures for six hours.

Karlee was declared clinically dead that day, but survived. Part of a leg had to be amputated, but her father says today she is a healthy nine-year-old girl.

Robert Kosolofski also had a message on Monday for the family of the Edmonton girl. "They've got her back. They've got a second chance," he said. "Just keep working with that."
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2001/02/26/edmonton_child010226

Article in The Province  (Vancouver)

Edmonton (Alberta, Canada) - Doctors in Edmonton are working to
save a one year old girl who was frozen almost solid, when she
slipped outside before dawn yesterday.
   Edmonton police say the child, who has not been identified,
was sleeping with her mother at a friends house, when she
apparently got out of bed and wandered outside into the backyard
of a home in northeast Edmonton.
   The mother awoke at about 3 a.m. to find her daughter
missing and, after a frantic search, found her about 45 minutes
later.
   A police detective said the baby was  frozen solid , when
she was discovered.  No one knows how long she was outside in the
-20^ C (- 4^ F)cold, clad only in a diaper, but when the infant
arrived in hospital, she had no vital signs.
    She wasn t breathing  said Dr. Allan De Caen, a pediatric
intensive care specialist at Stollery Children s Hospital.   She
didn t have any pulse .  She looked dead.
   The child s toes were frozen together.  Her body temperature
was 16^ C, less than half the body s normal temperature of 37^ C.
   Paramedics had difficulty getting a breathing tube into the
child s throat, because her mouth was frozen shut.  But they tied
to resuscitate her and in hospital 90 minutes later, she had
warmed a couple of degrees and her heart started beating on its
own.
    Within a couple of hours she was opening her eyes and
moving around, acting like a very sick one year old, but clearly
dramatically better than she had been,  said Dr. De Caen.
    She is a very lucky girl.   He said the next 12 to 24 hours
would be critical to her recovery.
    We are not looking at this as a case of child abuse, but as a
tragedy,  said a provincial health official.
   De Caen said, the baby s family can take some solace from
the case of Karlee Kosolofski.
   Karlee, 2, was inadvertently locked out of her parents  home
in Roleau, Saskatchewan in February 1994 for six hours, after she
followed her father out the door , as he went to work.  She was
clinically dead, when she arrived at the hospital and both her
legs were nearly frozen solid, but she survived.  - CP

http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=15742

Andrew
 

Offline rosy

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Chemistry
    • View Profile
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #12 on: 05/06/2005 00:24:54 »
Hmm-mm. All this stuff about people being "frozen" and then recovering...
The child in the article Andrew has posted had a body temperature of 16 C, which whilst well below normal body operating temperature is a fair way above freezing point.
I saw a documentary (fairly) recently about a woman who'd had a ski-ing accident and ended up with her head in a pool of water just beneath the ice. Because the scalp's got loads of near-the-surface blood vessels, the blood cooled very fast... with the result that the cell damage that normally results from oxygen depletion didn't occur.
To a reasonable approximation (I'm told, I haven't time to do the maths myself right now) reaction rates for a general reaction in this sort of temperature regime (20-100C) halve for every 10C drop in temperature... so the reaction rate would fall by 75% for a temperature drop from 37C to 16C (as in the case of the Canadian child).
I think the rate at which blood cooling occurs is important... it has to be quick or the brain is deprived of oxygen too soon.
I think I heard from somewhere else that in some places paramedics are using rapid cooling to slow brain damage due to head injuries.

BUT it's important to draw the distinction between someone being suffieciently cold that their internal reactions are slowed enough to prevent too much cell damage occuring between circulation stopping and restarting over a period of minutes or even a couple of hours, and someone being cooled so far that they can be left "on ice" indefinitely without reactions within their cells causing irreprable damage even over a prolonged period. To do that, you're looking at going well below freezing. Cells are basically just little bags of very concentrated aqueous solution (OK with some other stuff floating in it)... and if you freeze water it tends to expand, and the cells will tend to go "pop". Unless you do smart things to them with DMSO, which will be very difficult to get to work reliably in a whole body.

Rather a long and rambling post, sorry.
 

Offline goofkid

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/cooldanyal/science_ideas.html
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #13 on: 05/06/2005 03:30:43 »
Aaaa. I guess the only thing that'll clear our doubts is time. It's a pretty new subject to science. But interesting and kinda creepy. :D

Goofkid
 

Offline chris

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5336
  • Thanked: 65 times
  • The Naked Scientist
    • View Profile
    • The Naked Scientists
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #14 on: 06/06/2005 15:48:57 »
Yes, the press attention-grabbing "frozen solid" headline followed by the statement that body temperature was 16 degrees C, wasn't lost on me either !

Chris

"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
 - Groucho Marx
 

Offline qazibasit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 344
    • View Profile
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #15 on: 10/06/2005 10:54:20 »
well that was intresting but i think genetic engineering is better than this cryonics.
 

Offline goofkid

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
    • http://www.geocities.com/cooldanyal/science_ideas.html
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #16 on: 11/06/2005 19:56:29 »
quote:
Originally posted by qazibasit

well that was intresting but i think genetic engineering is better than this cryonics.




Yep. Same here :D. Genetic engineering makes more sense to me.

Goofkid
 

Offline rabeldin

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
    • http://www.stormloader.com/dickbeldin
Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #17 on: 29/06/2005 20:48:40 »
Somehow, spending gobs of money on getting frozen with the (vain, imho) expectation that someday, someone, somewhere will want to wake you up, sounds like a diagnosis of P.T.Barnum's ailment. There's a sucker born every minute.

R A Beldin,
Improbable Statistician
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Cryonics: Attempt To Revive "Dead" People
« Reply #17 on: 29/06/2005 20:48:40 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums