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Offline allien

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Was Jesus real or was he a great magician?
« Reply #25 on: 03/04/2009 23:06:06 »
According to Muslims, Jesus did not killed. He was taken to the sky.
Some of Muslims saying, his soul is taken to sky and he is dead.
But the others saying that he was taken while living,
and he will come back at the same age (between 30 and 40)

The estimated time corresponding to this century. :)
So if/when he came back, you ask directly to him, who really is. 
 

Offline akhenaten

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Was Jesus real or was he a great magician?
« Reply #26 on: 03/04/2009 23:34:08 »
Maybe the question "Was Jesus real or was he a great magician?" has caused problems here. I guess what was meant was did Jesus perform real miracles or did he trick people. And some people have taken the question to ask was Jesus real, meaning did he exist; was he a historical person or a character in a work of fiction.
Personally I see no scientific evidence for either the material existence of "God" or "Jesus" although I have thought about (as my user name would indicate). Both exist in the same sense the Sherlock Homes and Superman exists, most people known of these characters, but for me they are fictitious. What interests me is their origions and how the related religions developed. I guess this would really be another topic for for instance if there were Hebrews in ancient Egypt before the new Kingdom did they have a monotheistic religion or did Ikhnaton indeed formulate the first monotheistic religion?
 

Offline demadone

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Was Jesus real or was he a great magician?
« Reply #27 on: 04/04/2009 00:01:15 »
Quote
War or Peace?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen
--------------------------------------------------------
Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
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Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The number of beasts in the ark

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
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There are many more

1) War and peace: Is the United nations a body for causing war or trying to gain peace? God brings war to those who oppose him. No contradiction here. He has the right to make the world the way he wants he being the creator

2)Joseph was the son of Jacob. But in fact Mary was the daughter of Heli. The passage in Luke chapter 3 traces the ancestral line of Mary who was a descendant of king David. God made a promise to David that the messiah would be born to him. Since Joseph didn't father Jesus, that would be an incomplete fulfillment to that promise. Thus he had David's genes.

3)God is greater than Jesus. Even people can be one with God and Jesus, one with each other. This means in union. Same line of thought. John 17:11, 21.

4) The extra 5 animals were not really regarded as they were used for sacrifice, the other 2 were more significant as they would continue procreation. Simple huh?

As you see, no contradiction. In fact all these facts lay a good basis to learn more about the bible. It is worth learning. As me for any more clarifications if needed.
« Last Edit: 04/04/2009 00:07:46 by demadone »
 

Offline Don_1

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Was Jesus real or was he a great magician?
« Reply #28 on: 04/04/2009 13:18:46 »
Demadone, you say
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Joseph was the son of Jacob. But in fact Mary was the daughter of Heli. The passage in Luke chapter 3 traces the ancestral line of Mary who was a descendant of king David. God made a promise to David that the messiah would be born to him. Since Joseph didn't father Jesus, that would be an incomplete fulfillment to that promise. Thus he had David's genes.

The anomaly of Jesus parentage is explained that when the Bible (LUK 3:23) quotes: "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli." it actually means 'which was the son-in-law of Heli.' Yet I am unaware of any other such references to son or daughter-in-law in this manner anywhere else in the Bible. Strange eh! Smacks a little of somebody changing the rules to fit their purpose.

More importantly, the question 'who was Jesus?' needs to be addressed before you can determine his parentage. There are no reference to Jesus in Roman or Jewish history. A man who the New Testament alledges to have been of great concern to both parties. Was Jesus actually Ben Stada, Yehoshua Ben Perachiah or one of his 5 disciples. Why does the Talmud refer to these minor thorns in the side of Judaism yet not to Jesus.


akhenaten
The Hebrews were probably descended from the ancient Egyptian tribe known as the Hebra & may well have been lead out of Egypt by Moses, or forced out by the Pharaoh Thutmose III.
 

Offline allien

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Was Jesus real or was he a great magician?
« Reply #29 on: 05/04/2009 20:23:35 »
I am catholic but i have a hard time believing in Jesus. When he made the blind man see the blind man probably wasn't blind to start with and was helping jesus in his con. either that or the people who wrote the bible just made it all up.(there are many contradictions in the bible)

Miracles did not started with Jesus. Unless you say both Mary and Jesus magicians, your theory could not be true.

From Kuran;

3. The Family Of Imran

33. Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of Ìmrán above all people,-

34. Offspring, one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

35. Behold! a wife of Ìmrán said: "O my Lord! I do dedicate into Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service: So accept this of me: For Thou hearest and knowest all things."

36. When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"- and Allah knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the male like the female. I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from Satan, the Rejected."

37. Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity and beauty: To the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (her) chamber to see her, He found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?" She said: "From Allah. for Allah provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure."
 
38. There did Zakariya pray to his Lord, saying: "O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!"

39. While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: "Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahyá, (John)witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a prophet,- of the (goodly) company of the righteous."

40. He said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son, seeing I am very old, and my wife is barren?" "Thus," was the answer, "Doth Allah accomplish what He willeth."

41. He said: "O my Lord! Give me a Sign!" "Thy Sign," was the answer, "Shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three days but with signals. Then celebrate the praises of thy Lord again and again, and glorify Him in the evening and in the morning."

42. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.

43. "O Mary! worship thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."

44. This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger.) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with pens (or arrows), as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).

45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah."

46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so; Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!"


48. "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel,"

49. "And (appoint him) as a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I bring the dead into life, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

50. " '(I have come to you), to attest the Torah which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

51. " 'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

52. When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said: "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims."

53. "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger. then write us down among those who bear witness."

54. And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

55. Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

56. "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with severe agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

57. "As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong."

58. "This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."

59. The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

60. The Truth (comes) from thy Lord alone; so be not of those who doubt.



 
 

Offline latebind

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Was Jesus real or was he a great magician?
« Reply #30 on: 05/04/2009 21:29:26 »
In my opinion, the bible was written long ago, and we have no way of telling whether it is true or not. So the real question here is whether you as the reader believes it and thats all that really counts.Because no-one in the world will be able to show you the truth or hide it from you.
« Last Edit: 05/04/2009 23:25:09 by latebind »
 

Offline demadone

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Was Jesus real or was he a great magician?
« Reply #31 on: 05/04/2009 23:16:17 »
Quote
The anomaly of Jesus parentage is explained that when the Bible (LUK 3:23) quotes: "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli." it actually means 'which was the son-in-law of Heli.' Yet I am unaware of any other such references to son or daughter-in-law in this manner anywhere else in the Bible. Strange eh! Smacks a little of somebody changing the rules to fit their purpose.
It's good you do much research. It's great when questions have a good background research and not just sarcastic as is too often on religious questions on this board.
Actually there is another case. Certain texts indicate that Jeconiah (King Jehoiachin) was the fleshly father of Shealtiel. (1 Chronicles 3:16-18; Matthew 1:12) But the Gospel writer Luke called Shealtiel the ?son of Neri.? (Luke 3:27) Neri apparently gave his daughter to Shealtiel as a wife. Since the Hebrews commonly referred to a son-in-law as a son, especially in genealogical listings, Luke could properly call Shealtiel the son of Neri. Interesting hhhmm?

As you may conclude yourself, Luke seems to have a definitive tendency to call parents-in-laws parents. Other bible writters refer to actual parents. You have to understand one things though. The lineage from Adam to christ is very important in the bible. So sometimes where a person is linked to that lineage through a woman, then reference is given to the father-in-law, perhaps to cut the long story short. I call my mother-in-law my mother. So if someone were to read my letters after many years, they would probably think I married my sister if they didn't know the background of the matter well enough.

thanks.
 

Offline demadone

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« Reply #32 on: 05/04/2009 23:24:55 »
Quote
More importantly, the question 'who was Jesus?' needs to be addressed before you can determine his parentage. There are no reference to Jesus in Roman or Jewish history. A man who the New Testament alledges to have been of great concern to both parties. Was Jesus actually Ben Stada, Yehoshua Ben Perachiah or one of his 5 disciples. Why does the Talmud refer to these minor thorns in the side of Judaism yet not to Jesus.

There are references:

For instance, consider the testimony of Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian who was a Pharisee. He referred to Jesus Christ in the book Jewish Antiquities. Although some doubt the authenticity of the first reference where Josephus mentioned Jesus as the Messiah, Professor Louis H. Feldman of Yeshiva University says that few have doubted the genuineness of the second reference. There Josephus said: ?[Ananus the high priest] convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ.? (Jewish Antiquities, XX, 200) Yes, a Pharisee, a member of the sect many of whose adherents were avowed enemies of Jesus, acknowledged the existence of ?James, the brother of Jesus.?

The influence of Jesus? existence was felt through the activities of his followers. When the apostle Paul was imprisoned in Rome about 59 C.E., the principal men of the Jews told him: ?As regards this sect it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against.? (Acts 28:17-22) They called Jesus? disciples ?this sect.? If they were everywhere spoken against, secular historians would likely report about them, would they not?

Tacitus, born about 55 C.E. and considered one of the world?s greatest historians, mentioned the Christians in his Annals. In the account about Nero?s blaming the great fire of Rome in 64 C.E. on them, he wrote: ?Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus.? The details of this account match the information regarding the Jesus of the Bible.

Another writer who commented on Jesus? followers was Pliny the Younger, the governor of Bithynia. In about the year 111 C.E., Pliny wrote to Emperor Trajan, asking how to handle Christians. People who were falsely accused of being Christians, wrote Pliny, would repeat an invocation to the gods and worship the statue of Trajan, just to prove that they were not Christians. Pliny continued: ?There is no forcing, it is said, those who are really Christians, into any of these compliances.? That testifies to the reality of the existence of the Christ, whose followers were prepared to give their lives for their belief in him.
 

Offline Don_1

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« Reply #33 on: 06/04/2009 12:01:28 »
Quote
Was Josephus always correct? Certainly not. His inaccuracies range from vagueness to blatant exaggeration.
Shaye Cohen

Quote
DID JESUS OF NAZARETH EXIST? (The Talmud)      The thirty-second and thirty-third issues of BE discussed a group of non-Christian writers whom biblicists allege referred to Jesus in their writings. Both issues clearly showed that ancient writers such as Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger are not referring to Jesus of Nazareth in their most commonly quoted passages, and only by twisting and quoting out of context can their extrabiblical writings be employed in this manner. Another extrabiblical source occasionally cited as well is the Talmud. It is the collection of writings constituting the Jewish civil and religious law, and consists of two parts--the Mishnah (text) and the Gemara (commentary). In Judaism, the Torah, i.e., the law, is the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Old Testament, and the Mishnah is the oral Torah supplementing it. For several centuries after the codification of the Mishnah, rabbis and scholars wrote commentaries on it, known as the Gemara, i.e. completion. The Talmudic comments most often relied upon by biblicists were not cited earlier because their strength ranges from poor to pathetic. But to forestall any possibility of their being used to deceive the unwary, an exposure of the most prominent references and their deficiencies is well advised.
Dennis McKinsey – Whole text at http://www.skeptically.org/bible/id4.html

As I pointed out in an earlier post, there are no references in Roman or Jewish history during the supposed life of Jesus. The people you refer to, were all POST Jesus, NOT pre, or during.

Does it not strike you as inconceivable that nobody, not even his alleged disciples, wrote anything whatsoever on or about a man of, supposedly, the ultimate standing and importance during his lifetime?

Christianity appears to have arisen shortly after the alleged life of Jesus, therefore, it must be concluded that something happened at around that time. But what happened, why, how and who instigated it is open to question.

How do you account for the fact that, according to Judaism, the Saviour has yet to come? This man, Jesus, did not exist.  How do you account for the fact that, according to Islam, Jesus was a prophet, not the Son of God? Remember that Islam did not arise until more than 500 yrs after these events; therefore, its account of Jesus must be viewed with the same scepticisms, as its reference to Jesus the prophet can only be based on the same hearsay as the New Testament.
 

Offline Titanscape

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Was Jesus real or was he a great magician?
« Reply #34 on: 08/04/2009 03:03:25 »
All these contradictions quotes have old explanations.

The historicity of Jesus has more evidence to support it than the Battle of Waterloo.

You can't prove he was god, or that he did miracles. It is not science. It is relational and revelatory. The idea is God's spirit reveals himself to people. Sometimes dualists with a guilty conscience fear judgment in old fashioned preachings, and come to Christ, and then have an inner knowing of Jesus spirit's presence. As criticized by Dawkins, a highly public, fringe Christian, George W Bush, who said god told him to send the huge power of the US military to Iraq. Which looks like a mistake.

Our reasons and emotions for believing are varied, but relational. Very few would have faith for Creation Science writings...

Also people see modern miracles, healings, deliverance from demons, they speak Latin... secret thoughts are revealed, there is glossolalia, NDE's, and the wisdom of the Bible in where we come from, what we are for, where we go, how and why, and the great hope set before them. It fits with some.
« Last Edit: 08/04/2009 03:07:03 by Titanscape »
 

Offline Don_1

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« Reply #35 on: 08/04/2009 10:14:27 »
All these contradictions quotes have old explanations.

None of which are satisfactory.

The historicity of Jesus has more evidence to support it than the Battle of Waterloo.

I seriously doubt the most devout Christians or even The Pope himself would agree with that.

Very few would have faith for Creation Science writings...

There is no science in creation and no creation in science.

Also people see modern miracles, healings, deliverance from demons, they speak Latin... secret thoughts are revealed, there is glossolalia

I have never witnessed nor heard of a modern day miracle. I have never seen nor heard of any Latin speaking demon, save those in The Exorcist and such like fiction. I think you have been watching too many films.

Religion is based on faith, not evidence, which is convenient, since there is none. Science is based on evidence; scientific theory is just that until evidence proves it to be fact.

Why believe in this one God when there have been, and still are, so many other gods? What puts this one God above the others? Nothing, they are all the same.
 

Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #36 on: 08/04/2009 18:33:11 »
In the ancestry question, for example, I can accept, one ancestry is that of Joseph and the other of Mary.

And with regard to equality, that Jesus was emptied of use of godly powers, Phil 2:6-9 and on return was re-glorified.

About war and peace, god saved Israel for the peace of our race by then giving us the prophets and Jesus. And the Egyptian Copts accepted that and still do. Most people accept the explanations for apparent contradictions. The god of peace means first, that he has the power to heal and enliven, to make a person whole, and give them the hope of perfect peace in all aspects of life.

Archeology has studied Jesus a lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

"In The Historical Figure of Jesus, E.P. Sanders used Alexander the Great as a paradigm—the available sources tell us much about Alexander’s deeds, but nothing about his thoughts. "The sources for Jesus are better, however, than those that deal with Alexander" and "the superiority of evidence for Jesus is seen when we ask what he thought."[83] Thus, Sanders considers the quest for the Historical Jesus to be much closer to a search for historical details on Alexander than to those historical figures with adequate documentation."

"Nevertheless, the historicity of Jesus is accepted by almost all Biblical scholars and classical historians. James Dunn describes the mythical Jesus theory as a 'thoroughly dead thesis'."

A Google search will show the credibility of the historicity of Jesus.

Creation science is a work of Christians who bring the Bible and science for the classroom together. I don't snap at them or support them. I also believe the Bible over sciences views, because I don't think god created man through evolution.

Faith is partly based on evidence, for a verdict rather than a test for a fact.

I know someone who was exorcised and spoke Latin, and I saw people exorcised who began to scream together, and who fell silent when commanded in Jesus name. I don't believe the films.

Jesus is different to other gods, because of his sacrifice and answers to the religious questions and problems of old.

Don_1 you seem to make up and hold to new myths.

« Last Edit: 08/04/2009 18:38:33 by Titanscape »
 

Offline demadone

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« Reply #37 on: 08/04/2009 23:28:07 »
We can't deny the fact that Jesus was the most influencial and still remains the most influencial man to ever walk this earth. His teachings, much more than his miracles have left a big mark on the earth. You may doubt his miracles but his influence is undeniable. And if all 'christians' and not would apply these, the world be a different place.

Roman and greek historians spoke of the things that mattered to them. Remember Jesus was in Jerusalem. A very small colony, how would these historians know if to write about them.

About Josephus, he is one of the major sources of Roman activities such as the great fire. So why do we know the great fire happened from him and yet when he mentions christians we say he is a liar. He depicted the distraction of Jerusalem so well, yet when we see Jesus prophesying this event we doubt it.
I sense bias.
 

Offline Don_1

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« Reply #38 on: 09/04/2009 11:37:43 »
About war and peace, god saved Israel for the peace of our race by then giving us the prophets and Jesus.

Israel....... Peace...... Who are you kidding???

Quote
A Google search will show the credibility of the historicity of Jesus.

None of this gives any credibility to Jesus whatsoever. All of this 'evidence' is based on hearsay and opinion. You will find there is an equal amount of 'evidence' in support of the Jewish view that he did not exist.

There is no concrete evidence to support the existence or non-existence of Jesus.

Quote
Jesus is different to other gods,

Jesus is God? The Holy Ghost is God? It is not until the 2nd century AD that the Catholic Church manages to deal with the problem of Jesus. Hardly surprising when you consider their answer to this dilemma.  By their own admission Jesus cannot be a God, since there is only one God. So they invent The Trinity, God the Father, the Son & the Holy Ghost. But the Father is not the Son, or the Holy Ghost. The Son is not the Father or the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is not the Father or the Son! (This concept does not appear in the Bible.) Confused? The youngest Abrahamic religion, Islam, considers reference to Jesus or the Holy Ghost as God or of a Holy Trinity to be the ultimate blasphemy. Perhaps they should also consider it to be the ultimate Chinese puzzle.


The "Shield of the Trinity" or "Scutum Fidei" diagram of traditional Western Christian symbolism.

Archeology has studied Jesus a lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Did you bother to read this bit?
Quote from: wikipedia
Attempts to use historical rather than religious methods to construct a verifiable biography of Jesus began in the 18th century with Hermann Samuel Reimarus, up to William Wrede and Albert Schweitzer in the 19th century Reimarus pioneered "the search for the historical Jesus", applying the Rationalism of the Enlightenment Era to claims about Jesus. Although Schweitzer was among the greatest contributors to this quest, he also ended it by noting how each scholar's version of Jesus seemed little more than an idealized autobiography of the scholar himself.


We can't deny the fact that Jesus was the most influencial and still remains the most influencial man to ever walk this earth. His teachings, much more than his miracles have left a big mark on the earth. You may doubt his miracles but his influence is undeniable. And if all 'christians' and not would apply these, the world be a different place.

I would not entirely disagree with that.

About Josephus............. when he mentions christians we say he is a liar.

No one said he was a liar, just given to inaccuracy and exaggeration; therefore, he cannot be taken at face value.

Don_1 you seem to make up and hold to new myths.

The whole point is, I do not believe myths.

Do you believe in Robin Hood? He is attributed as being Robert of Loxley aka Robert Hode aka Robert Dore. Another myth blown out of all proportion to the real man or men. He may have been a conglomerate of several people. Perhaps Jesus was a similar conglomerate of several people, with the resulting story blown out of all proportion to actual events.

Since you cannot accept that there is neither concrete evidence nor substantiated eyewitness accounts to prove or disprove the existence of Jesus, I think it best to leave this debate here, lest we continue to go around in ever decreasing circles, only to disappear up our own jacksies. We must agree to disagree.
 

Offline demadone

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« Reply #39 on: 09/04/2009 15:09:17 »
May it be appropriate to ask what some of these exaggeration were that Josephus made?

I know for sure he used to try to scare his countrymen from revolting against the Romans, but I don't know what the above comments have been referring to.
 

Offline demadone

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« Reply #40 on: 09/04/2009 15:15:06 »
I don't believe the trinity. It obviously was coined outside the bible.
Many will refer to John 1:1 but in Greek it reads:
'In the beginning was [the] word and that [the] word was with [the] God, and that [the] word was God'
The presence of a definite article [the] always means the actual subject and the absence of the definite article means something like.

So the verse literary reads: 'In the beginning was the word and that word was with God, and that word was Godlike'
 

Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #41 on: 09/04/2009 17:27:08 »
The Bible is a relational book, not theological, there is no, "demi-god", "Trinity", "Modes"...

I have read and can pass on a Brilliant 11 page essay by Alan Morrison on the Trinity as revealed in the scriptures. Particularly for modalists. The Blessed Three In One.

The idea is there is one god, in three persons, each is god.
 

Offline Raghavendra

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« Reply #42 on: 10/04/2009 08:57:32 »
Interesting to read.... I like it?
 

Offline demadone

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Was Jesus real or was he a great magician?
« Reply #43 on: 10/04/2009 17:38:54 »
So Titan, are you saying there is a trinity?
 

Offline allien

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« Reply #44 on: 10/04/2009 23:29:01 »
I am not familiar with trinity. Could someone explain it shortly for me?

What is Holly Spirit? what does he do specially to be a God?

Why Jesus must be a God?

Holly Spirit and Jesus are independent from God? Or they are peoples that is given extra properties from God?

Which God spoke with Moses?

Which one do not need any others to be exsist?

In jugment day, if three of them were disagree about something, what will be the last decission? Who is the boss?
 

Offline demadone

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« Reply #45 on: 13/04/2009 09:31:06 »
Allien. There is no evidence in the holy scriptures to support the trinity. I'm sure if it exists, then God would make sure to tell us. More importantly, Jesus was created. So which means that God does not need a trinity in order for him to exist. Only God is the boss.
 

lyner

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« Reply #46 on: 14/04/2009 20:54:15 »
It always amazes me how people seem to want such concrete explanations for something which is, clearly, (if it exists at all) far beyond the comprehension of any human.
I am not a believer but, if it is all true, it's going to be way harder than QM, even. The notion that we could put it in a box is the height of arrogance.
 

Offline mcgiverofthegarden

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« Reply #47 on: 23/04/2009 15:16:24 »
Did anyone see The Life of Brian?

Wasn't it based directly on the bible?
"he's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy"

'Life of Brian' was not directly related to the bible at all, Jesus you remember was in the story. Really 'Life of Brian' was a black comedy which looked at the different cults and groups that existed in Israel at the time of Jesus.

I am catholic but i have a hard time believing in Jesus. When he made the blind man see the blind man probably wasn't blind to start with and was helping Jesus in his con. either that or the people who wrote the bible just made it all up.(there are many contradictions in the bible)

In terms of magic and Jesus, surely as a Catholic, you should know that it's an issue of faith, not magic. I think you should reread the catechise.
« Last Edit: 23/04/2009 15:22:40 by mcgiverofthegarden »
 

Offline mcgiverofthegarden

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« Reply #48 on: 23/04/2009 15:45:25 »
Moving to something more tangable.

I would like to look at Jesus' life, death and resurrection.

It is claimed by the Church and his followers that through these acts Jesus defeated Evil and won victory for good, by destroying the root of evil.

Now what is the root of evil? The root stems all the way back to the garden of Eden and the Original sin. Which was to eat the apple, but really was that the sin? I would argue that actually the sin was to doubt Gods love, and with that doubt to look for safety, the snake inspired this doubt, as no doubt the snake also felt it- that god might not love me or maybe it was a jealousy that 'God might love you more than me'. Either way all three fall, Adam and Eve doubt Gods love even in Eden, so you can how easy it must be for people on earth to do so.

This is the root of all evil, the doubt of gods love, for god is love.

Jesus defeats this evil by coming and showing us, continually in his life, on the cross and even after his resurrection, that God does love us, all of us.

1 John 4 "not that we loved god, but that god loves us"

Some argue that Jesus defeated death this day, but how could he have, the after life was already there, Jesus meets Moses if you remember, on the mountain with Elijah, long after they have both passed away or risen. Although he does show the afterlife with his resurrection, I say his victory is one of proving Gods love.
« Last Edit: 23/04/2009 15:51:25 by mcgiverofthegarden »
 

Offline cedar_tree

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« Reply #49 on: 08/05/2009 06:47:17 »
I like the president, good news that a catholic has questioned a branch of religion like a good racist.

in God you trust is the issue here or we all die fighting! 
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Was Jesus real or was he a great magician?
« Reply #49 on: 08/05/2009 06:47:17 »

 

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