The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: How does time relate to the photon?  (Read 32075 times)

Offline Mr. Scientist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1451
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • http://www.facebook.com/#/profile.php?ref=profile&
    • View Profile
    • Time Theory
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #25 on: 09/04/2009 22:19:11 »
I'm going to suggest a hypothetical circumstance which is quite impossible, nevertheless, it has raised a question in my mind which has many possible interpretations.

If one could hitch a ride on a photon, present theory suggests they would experience absolutely no passage of time. If I'm correct in this understanding, starting with the Big Bang, and progressing forward in time until the theorized heat death of the universe, how would the rider view the total experience? Would I be correct in saying; Because no time had elapsed for this passenger, the Big Bang and the Heat Death of the universe would be a single event with absolutely no time occuring in between. And with such a perspective, would the passenger have, from their position, already arrived at the Heat Death?

If this assumption is correct, then the future is already determined and it can't be changed...........................Ethos

You kind of answered your own question, but a good question at that. Let me go through it for you:

''If one could hitch a ride on a photon, present theory suggests they would experience absolutely no passage of time. If I'm correct in this understanding,''

Yes you are right, from a photons point of view, it experiences no time because space is stretched into infinity

''starting with the Big Bang, and progressing forward in time until the theorized heat death of the universe, how would the rider view the total experience?

Going back to the original assumption, correct at that which you made, the photon would actually experience no time passing, so even from big bang to heat death, or even big rip to big crunch, it would never know, because it never lived for a single chronon, or a single Planck Time which stands at around 84b67d9bffd9fd24efa2191f21390f05.gif of a second.

and thus your final remarks

''Would I be correct in saying; Because no time had elapsed for this passenger, the Big Bang and the Heat Death of the universe would be a single event with absolutely no time occuring in between. And with such a perspective, would the passenger have, from their position, already arrived at the Heat Death?''

Are absolutely sound :)

 

Offline lightarrow

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4586
  • Thanked: 7 times
    • View Profile
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #26 on: 10/04/2009 00:15:19 »
...
and thus your final remarks

''Would I be correct in saying; Because no time had elapsed for this passenger, the Big Bang and the Heat Death of the universe would be a single event with absolutely no time occuring in between. And with such a perspective, would the passenger have, from their position, already arrived at the Heat Death?''

Are absolutely sound :)


Actually, it's nonsense saying "the passenger have, from their position, already arrived at the Heat Death". If you want to relate events in our frame of reference with events in his frame of reference then he *is not* arrived there, he's arrived exactly where we are in this moment. Nonetheless it's true that he will experience just a few instants to go in our far future.
 

Offline LeeE

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3382
    • View Profile
    • Spatial
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #27 on: 10/04/2009 21:06:27 »

But that is true only in the hypothesis that our universe had a finite time of existence, because a finite number (universe time of existence) multiplied zero (Lorentz factor) is zero (time elapsed for the photon); but if the universe has an infinite time of existence (and, sincerely, neither me, nor you can know it) then infinite multiplied zero is undetermined (which means that it could be zero, a finite number or an infinite number).

If we accept the BB hypothesis, only a finite amount of time can have elapsed for the universe up to this point in time.  Whether the universe goes on to exist for an infinite amount of time or not is open to debate, but for any specific time in the future only a finite amount of time can have elapsed.
If you are in a starship travelling at c you have lived zero time from the BB up to know, but since you live in a different time, you keep going ahead, till the end of the universe, so don't know how your consideration applies here.


If you've lived zero time up until now, you're not living in a 'different' time; you've lived, as you said, zero time.  With time being absent as a factor in your frame of reference, you don't keep going because you aren't doing anything.  Nothing can happen and there is no scope for change to occur because there is nowhere else for a different state to exist.
 

Offline lightarrow

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4586
  • Thanked: 7 times
    • View Profile
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #28 on: 11/04/2009 09:01:19 »
If you've lived zero time up until now, you're not living in a 'different' time; you've lived, as you said, zero time.  With time being absent as a factor in your frame of reference, you don't keep going because you aren't doing anything.  Nothing can happen and there is no scope for change to occur because there is nowhere else for a different state to exist.
That I have coloured is wrong.
 

Offline amrit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 103
  • Power of science is uncompromised search for truth
    • View Profile
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #29 on: 11/04/2009 09:43:02 »
I'm going to suggest a hypothetical circumstance which is quite impossible, nevertheless, it has raised a question in my mind which has many possible interpretations.

If one could hitch a ride on a photon, present theory suggests they would experience absolutely no passage of time. If I'm correct in this understanding, starting with the Big Bang, and progressing forward in time until the theorized heat death of the universe, how would the rider view the total experience? Would I be correct in saying; Because no time had elapsed for this passenger, the Big Bang and the Heat Death of the universe would be a single event with absolutely no time occuring in between. And with such a perspective, would the passenger have, from their position, already arrived at the Heat Death?

If this assumption is correct, then the future is already determined and it can't be changed...........................Ethos

photon moves in atemporal space only and not in time
time is a clock run that measure photon speed
you can not move woth photon speed, so your question has no answer
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1451
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • http://www.facebook.com/#/profile.php?ref=profile&
    • View Profile
    • Time Theory
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #30 on: 12/04/2009 02:51:54 »
...
and thus your final remarks

''Would I be correct in saying; Because no time had elapsed for this passenger, the Big Bang and the Heat Death of the universe would be a single event with absolutely no time occuring in between. And with such a perspective, would the passenger have, from their position, already arrived at the Heat Death?''

Are absolutely sound :)


Actually, it's nonsense saying "the passenger have, from their position, already arrived at the Heat Death". If you want to relate events in our frame of reference with events in his frame of reference then he *is not* arrived there, he's arrived exactly where we are in this moment. Nonetheless it's true that he will experience just a few instants to go in our far future.

Actually, to every beginning there is an end. If you want to get technical about this, then the photon never really existed at all, because it has no beginning of existence in time (this is why we say if the photon really has any kind of birth, it would simultaneously be its death also). This is why, as soon as big bang imploded, and photon where released - the very basic building energy tools of all matter - from ''their point of perspective,'' not a single bit of time passes, so any symmetry in time (such as a big crunch where the time direction has flipped due to gravity), from their point of perspective, there existence accounts to nothing, so it has experiences nothing, but can be said to have a birth and death (the beginning and end) which cancel out entirely.
 

Ethos

  • Guest
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #31 on: 12/04/2009 03:01:57 »

Actually, to every beginning there is an end. If you want to get technical about this, then the photon never really existed at all,

And this exposes a contradiction in terms because; If the photon never really existed within it's own time, why did it exist in ours? My own take on this is that the photon experiences it's birth and it's death even though these are crowded into a singular event.
 

Offline LeeE

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3382
    • View Profile
    • Spatial
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #32 on: 12/04/2009 19:43:54 »
If you've lived zero time up until now, you're not living in a 'different' time; you've lived, as you said, zero time.  With time being absent as a factor in your frame of reference, you don't keep going because you aren't doing anything.  Nothing can happen and there is no scope for change to occur because there is nowhere else for a different state to exist.
That I have coloured is wrong.

What you have coloured is correct.
 

Offline lightarrow

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4586
  • Thanked: 7 times
    • View Profile
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #33 on: 12/04/2009 21:21:52 »
If you've lived zero time up until now, you're not living in a 'different' time; you've lived, as you said, zero time.  With time being absent as a factor in your frame of reference, you don't keep going because you aren't doing anything.  Nothing can happen and there is no scope for change to occur because there is nowhere else for a different state to exist.
That I have coloured is wrong.

What you have coloured is correct.
Then we're on a loop...
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 11978
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #34 on: 13/04/2009 13:14:40 »
Ok, I'm a photon, yes I am :) Now, what can I see? looking out wth my photonic eyes I see nothing at all. Why I think so? There is no distance to see anything in. When I'm at 'c' distance as well as time disappear. At 'c' our spacetime is nothing more than a un-dimensional point and whatever travel it does from our point of view, won't even exist from the view of that photon, as I understand it. To it, it does not 'travel', the only thing it may do from its own point of view is to 'break down' into spacetime. And when it do, it disappears.

---

But this is when discussing bosons like photons. They don't obey the rules of fermions, even thought they seem, as from our frame of reference, to obey both gravity and time. Fermions won't get up to 'c' as I understand it, if ever matter was at 'c' it would have a infinite amount of everything, from momentum to energy to 'mass' to??? As Lightarrow say, if fermions was at 'c' what he describes should be true. So, I think there are a collision of 'frames' here:)

To test the idea of time slows down 'internally' should be possible, the question here is not so much if an accelerated frame is 'slower' in all it does as compared to an unaccelerated frame. The question is rather if 'thinking' would stop at 'c' for us. The first question is defined by a comparison between frames, but with two truths to it, depending on your frame of reference.The other question is a question about what 'internal experience' you might have while traveling at 'c' and that can only be described from the 'internal' frame of reference. There I believe Lightarrow to be right, as time for 'fermions' never stops.
« Last Edit: 13/04/2009 13:50:58 by yor_on »
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1451
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • http://www.facebook.com/#/profile.php?ref=profile&
    • View Profile
    • Time Theory
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #35 on: 13/04/2009 13:37:55 »

Actually, to every beginning there is an end. If you want to get technical about this, then the photon never really existed at all,

And this exposes a contradiction in terms because; If the photon never really existed within it's own time, why did it exist in ours? My own take on this is that the photon experiences it's birth and it's death even though these are crowded into a singular event.

Shhh... :) That is where relativity comes in. Our frame of reference does not effect our ability to notice the distortions of spacetime themselves, even if there are photons and gluon ect ect all moving at speeds which defy their own existence. But this has to do with ''frame of references'' and it depends on what frame of reference you take.

You could say the photon is absolutely and utterly meaningless and utterly non-energetic, if there was no reference frame to destinguish it at all. Remember, the photon, is just a wave of possibilities, and the probability of finding that particle depends on some kind of decoherence due to observation.

It may seem contradictory, but relativity explains it quite well, and if my explanation is not good enough, i will try again.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1451
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • http://www.facebook.com/#/profile.php?ref=profile&
    • View Profile
    • Time Theory
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #36 on: 13/04/2009 13:40:56 »

Actually, to every beginning there is an end. If you want to get technical about this, then the photon never really existed at all,

And this exposes a contradiction in terms because; If the photon never really existed within it's own time, why did it exist in ours? My own take on this is that the photon experiences it's birth and it's death even though these are crowded into a singular event.

Shhh... :) That is where relativity comes in. Our frame of reference does not effect our ability to notice the distortions of spacetime themselves, even if there are photons and gluon ect ect all moving at speeds which defy their own existence. But this has to do with ''frame of references'' and it depends on what frame of reference you take.

You could say the photon is absolutely and utterly meaningless and utterly non-energetic, if there was no reference frame to destinguish it at all. Remember, the photon, is just a wave of possibilities, and the probability of finding that particle depends on some kind of decoherence due to observation.

It may seem contradictory, but relativity explains it quite well, and if my explanation is not good enough, i will try again.

I will also add, since i mentioned the birth of photon, so-to-say, at the big bang, their goal must be evident and plain. It must be as plain as:

1) They desired to become rest matter

2) They desired to experience time under a rest matter's frame of existence

Without these ''desires'', then the world as we know it would just be a ghostly apparition of photons, if it would exist [at all].
 

Ethos

  • Guest
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #37 on: 14/04/2009 01:50:36 »
It may seem contradictory, but relativity explains it quite well,

Yes, I understand. The only disagreement I have with this rationale is this: I believe the photon's experience, from birth to death, is crowded into a single moment. I don't accept the argument that this moment never existed within the photon's frame of reference.

Some will argue that a moment of time can't equal zero, and I would agree. For this moment I propose one attosecond. One unit of Plank time equal to: (10^-18) seconds.....................Ethos

« Last Edit: 14/04/2009 03:54:21 by Ethos »
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 11978
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #38 on: 14/04/2009 23:46:23 »
It's a nice question Ethos. We should have it on record. Ah, possibly :)
How long can the interaction of a photon in spacetime be.
The light I mean, from one photon.
 

Ethos

  • Guest
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #39 on: 14/04/2009 23:53:25 »
It's a nice question Ethos. We should have it on record. Ah, possibly :)
How long can the interaction of a photon in spacetime be.
The light I mean, from one photon.
From it's frame of reference or that of an observer?
 

Offline LeeE

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3382
    • View Profile
    • Spatial
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #40 on: 15/04/2009 01:03:13 »
If you've lived zero time up until now, you're not living in a 'different' time; you've lived, as you said, zero time.  With time being absent as a factor in your frame of reference, you don't keep going because you aren't doing anything.  Nothing can happen and there is no scope for change to occur because there is nowhere else for a different state to exist.
That I have coloured is wrong.

What you have coloured is correct.
Then we're on a loop...

You have acknowledged that that zero time has passed in that frame of reference, so how can it be a factor if it's value is zero?  How can this be incorrect?

Just high-lighting a bit of text and saying it's incorrect without explaining why is worthless.
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 11978
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #41 on: 15/04/2009 09:09:22 »
From a photons perspective nothing can be, it is its 'destruction' we measure from our perspective, do you agree? There is no way I know of, measuring anything from a photons 'perspective'. But it's still interesting to wonder if one can observe a single photon and 'isolate' its action on one atom f ex. Probably it isn't possible?
 

Offline lightarrow

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4586
  • Thanked: 7 times
    • View Profile
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #42 on: 15/04/2009 11:28:48 »
If you've lived zero time up until now, you're not living in a 'different' time; you've lived, as you said, zero time.  With time being absent as a factor in your frame of reference, you don't keep going because you aren't doing anything.  Nothing can happen and there is no scope for change to occur because there is nowhere else for a different state to exist.
That I have coloured is wrong.

What you have coloured is correct.
Then we're on a loop...

You have acknowledged that that zero time has passed in that frame of reference, so how can it be a factor if it's value is zero?  How can this be incorrect?

Just high-lighting a bit of text and saying it's incorrect without explaining why is worthless.
Because I have already explained it, and sincerely I don't know how to explain it in a different way.
« Last Edit: 15/04/2009 11:31:06 by lightarrow »
 

Offline LeeE

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3382
    • View Profile
    • Spatial
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #43 on: 15/04/2009 20:19:21 »
Oh I give up.
 

lyner

  • Guest
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #44 on: 15/04/2009 23:55:52 »
How can you guys get so airated about something which can't have any meaning? If time doesn't exist in a particular model then what is the point of discussing things as if it did?
Too much concrete thinking, I feel.
 

Offline lightarrow

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4586
  • Thanked: 7 times
    • View Profile
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #45 on: 16/04/2009 00:50:08 »
How can you guys get so airated
???

Quote
about something which can't have any meaning? If time doesn't exist in a particular model then what is the point of discussing things as if it did?
Too much concrete thinking, I feel.
What do you mean? I was discussing about time in a very fast starship (because, as already said tens of times, the photon's frame of reference doesn't exist).
 

Offline amrit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 103
  • Power of science is uncompromised search for truth
    • View Profile
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #46 on: 23/04/2009 10:12:46 »
time is run of clocks and does not relate to photon in any way
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 11978
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #47 on: 03/10/2010 06:45:08 »
Let's put it slightly different.

We have two possible effects.

1. If a photon would be shown to possess a mass.

Can it then be regarded as intrinsically timeless?
And what kind of Boson would it be then?
After all, we can 'make' them in a Bose Einstein condensate?

2. What are the actual proofs for it being intrinsically timeless?
I started to look for that but I can't seem to find them?

My own reasoning would possibly be, assuming that light propagates, that we need this as a definition for explaining how it conserves its energy, considering the 'distances' it covers, as well as the 'time' we notice it to have.

On the other hand. Without a clock, how can it propagate?
Not easily, if we assume distance needing a clock?

Also, it is often referred to it being a direct consequence of it being at 'c' but how do you prove that relationship? We talk about it as being a boson, and therefore having those properties, but I would still like to see the causality-chain clearer, leading to the conclusion.

You can say that as the equations prove that matter can't reach 'c' as the slope gets infinitely steep there is a clear difference between what we call bosons and fermions, but the idea of a photon possessing a mass would in my eyes degrade it from being 'time-less' if so?

So, anyone that can show me the proofs?
==

The clock on this server is slightly weird :)
It says ten minutes before my correction 'intrinsically' came to be :)
Hmm, it's relativistic :)

« Last Edit: 03/10/2010 06:58:58 by yor_on »
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 11978
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #48 on: 03/10/2010 09:01:49 »
You can relate it to so called world-lines and say that a photon motion is totally through space, leaving nothing to left for time as it 'moves' as fast that's possible for any object in SpaceTime. Normally we move in Space and in Time, but on the other hand this seems to build on on the (pre?)conception that a photon actually do move as fast as it is possible inside SpaceTime.

But assume that it would be found to have an ever so slight 'restmass'?
Could we then say with certainty that nothing can move faster?

And what would that do this axiom?
==

In a way this idea seems sort of circular, as it build on the premise that light is as fast as anything can be and from there reasons that if we assume that we normally have a motion through both space and time, then with a faster motion you will have a lesser motion through time, all the way up to a photons 'no-time'.

If we go back and look at the theory of relativity, it builds on the idea that light will have the same velocity no matter what frame you measure it from, right? So if I use this definition of world-lines and assume that I send a light-corn from a speeding rocket near light-speed I will still measure it to be 'c' but what have I done to its worldline? Nothing it seems, as it already was as fast as can be? But I must have done something? The photon will see the exact same plane in both cases, that is, nothing.

So how do it do it, seeing nothing, but interacting with us?
Because it do interact, and have a speed as measured by us.

You can relate that to your 'invariant frame' as in your frame time never change, only the 'relations' do.

« Last Edit: 03/10/2010 09:27:46 by yor_on »
 

Offline JP

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3366
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #49 on: 03/10/2010 09:06:01 »
There are two possibilities:
1) A photon is massless, in which case it always moves at c, the cosmic speed limit, and it's probably a meaningless question to ask what it experiences, since we, as objects with mass, can't ever see what it "sees," nor can we measure it, since our detectors also have mass.

2) A photon has mass, in which case we would have to rename the cosmic speed limit something other than "the speed of light"!  Special relativity should still hold, although now photons are like all particles with mass and can't reach that fastest possible speed.  There are probably other tiny fixes that need to be made in various theories.  But, since we know a lot of theories do hold to a high degree of accuracy, and various tests have been made looking for photon mass, the maximum allowable photon mass has to be very tiny, if it is non-zero.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

How does time relate to the photon?
« Reply #49 on: 03/10/2010 09:06:01 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums