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Author Topic: Don't let Blair see this!  (Read 4054 times)

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Offline Tronix

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Re: Don't let Blair see this!
« Reply #1 on: 02/06/2005 18:27:38 »
The future of texas politics.

"trust me, its only mineral water in that mister. Go ahead cool off son."

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Offline chimera

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Re: Don't let Blair see this!
« Reply #2 on: 02/06/2005 20:16:34 »
Some types of ants use those 'submission' pheromones on other species for all kinds of obvious bonuses. Doesn't allways work, though. If a worker *witnesses* the strange ant doing something totally out of kilter, it will kill it regardless of the amount of pheromone. It's more of a 'convincing' element, than a 100% obedience guarantee- like hypnosis.

The living are the dead on holiday.  -- Maurice de Maeterlinck (1862-1949)
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Don't let Blair see this!
« Reply #3 on: 03/06/2005 12:59:39 »
quote:
It's more of a 'convincing' element, than a 100% obedience guarantee- like hypnosis

Rob - I fully appreciate that: but even so it could be a very powerful tool. What if some were introduced into the air conditioning in parliament just as the PM (in Britain's case) were about to ask for a vote on, say, going to war on Iran? If it were a vote he was expecting to lose narrowly and introducing the chemical made even 5% difference to how much people were "convinced" by him, it could make the difference between going to war or not & that is a very serious consequence.
I'm not saying that any of our current administration would actually do it (I would never dream of suggesting such a thing... ahem) but looking at "politicians" in other countries, & some from history, I think the potential for such chicanery is there.
As for the hypnosis analogy: there's a lot of rubbish spoken about hypnosis. It's accepted that you can't make a person do something that's against their basic character. That's bull! It's simply a matter of convincing them, under hypnosis, that what you are asking them to do does fit in with their moral code. For instance, a person may be non-violent by nature but believe that paedophiles should be hanged. If you wanted to get that person to commit an assault for you, you convince the person under hypnosis that whoever it is you want assaulted is a paedophile & that there is no other way for him to be punished for his crime. It's a mixture of hypnosis & brainwashing. Maybe not 100% effective but it would certainly increase the possibility of the person doing as you have asked.
« Last Edit: 03/06/2005 13:06:02 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Don't let Blair see this!
« Reply #4 on: 04/06/2005 12:38:56 »
True about the hypnosis, although making a vegetarian eat meat will take some convincing - deep emotions/revulsions are harder to overcome. And there's still a large distance between 'hating' people in a remote sense and actually doing them any GBH. You cannot turn a basic coward into a unwilling hero, I think.

It IS true our gullibility is much greater than most people would like to admit. That's why they recruit youngsters for armies, not cynical old geysers like us, whose reaction would be to question the wisdom of the first command thrown at them, in all likelihood.

But if the 'conviction' really works on the 'revulsion level', it'll be harder to overcome, for instance. Some deep-seated emotions are pretty hard to suppress. Try coaching your paedophile basher into more 'apologetic' or understanding behaviour - good luck. I don't think it will work. Trying to cross the threshold to actually resort to violence might violate some other deep barrier, I mean.

But again, I agree it is not such a clear-cut thing as most people would like to have it.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Don't let Blair see this!
« Reply #5 on: 05/06/2005 13:33:31 »
Rob - I appreciate what you say but there ways around everything. If you can't get there directly, use a circuitous route. Seemingly disparate subjects can be linked if you can find what that link is. So, A could be the cowardly instinct & C the hero. A->C may not be feasible. But if you can identify B, or maybe even B1, B2 & B3, the link can be made. Once it's made it can be reinforced.
Also, don't forget how effective brainwashing by itself can be. Imagine backing that up with hypnosis.
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Don't let Blair see this!
« Reply #6 on: 05/06/2005 20:20:24 »
I think psychiatric fact speaks in my favour here... wouldn't more behaviour be 'normalised' via all sorts of therapies if it weren't? So people would seem to be more fixed in their behaviour than you seem to suggest.

Take your specialty, addiction. How much success do therapies have there? I think most addicts somehow 'grow' out of their addiction with age. In Holland, where we've had programs for over a few decades now, we see that happen with quite a few different drugs. Probably something to do with metabolism and endocrine balance, just to underline the fact that physical factors also decide our psychological make-up, not only our *perception* of reality.

The living are the dead on holiday.  -- Maurice de Maeterlinck (1862-1949)
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Don't let Blair see this!
« Reply #7 on: 05/06/2005 21:26:21 »
Define "normalised"
The fact that most people conform with societal norms (or, at least, pretend to) shows the efficacy of brainwashing. We are taught from a very early age that behaviour A is acceptable, behaviour B isn't... thinking A is ok but thinking B is perverse. We are brought up to live within the moral & ethical framework that our society dictates. If that were not the case there would be many more people challenging the values society holds dear.
That's a large part of the problem people from different cultures have with understanding each other. For instance, the general view in the Christian world is that the Islamic practice of chopping off the hands of a thief is barbaric. But is it really? Is it not simply the case that we are applying the values we were brought up with to a society that was raised with very different beliefs (and look how low their crime rate is in comparison to The West)? That doesn't make their beliefs inferior... but that's what we've been taught & it's what we believe to be true. Don't underestimate the power of brainwashing.
However, back to the topic... addiction therapies do not use brainwashing. In general they are alternative-drug-based in collaboration with a form of behavioural conditioning (there are exceptions to that), rewarding good behaviour with praise.
I don't know what figures you've seen for Holland, but a 25% success rate in the UK is outstanding (I've looked at some Dutch studies as well as American, Australian, Norwegian & Japanese. They all give roughly the same results). You can't grow out of an addiction: a dependence, maybe... but not an addiction.
 

Offline rabeldin

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Re: Don't let Blair see this!
« Reply #8 on: 29/06/2005 20:52:20 »
Judging from last year's elections, most of the US water supplies have been contaminated.

R A Beldin,
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Re: Don't let Blair see this!
« Reply #8 on: 29/06/2005 20:52:20 »

 

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