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Author Topic: How much is the increase in CO2 every year?  (Read 72300 times)

Offline Bored chemist

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What about energy from human activities - e.g.all these Abombs and rockets? &.......(fill in)


Why are you asking this again?
Didn't you like the answer you got last time?
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=22348.0


Mod edit - Good point - topics merged
« Last Edit: 15/08/2009 17:30:42 by BenV »
 

Offline Richard345

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How much is the increase in CO2 every year?
« Reply #51 on: 16/07/2009 19:17:44 »
Greetings all. I came across this thread Googling for "experiments using various CO2 concentrations global warming" and similar terms. So far, I've only been able to come across people asking the same question, and no experiments. In reading this thread, I share many of the thoughts of Henry Pool.

To be honest, I did come across these two experiments:

newbielink:http://www.espere.net/Unitedkingdom/water/uk_watexpgreenhouse.htm [nonactive]


newbielink:http://www.rsc.org/education/teachers/learnnet/JESEI/co2green/home.htm [nonactive]


What strikes me as odd is that they both use 100% CO2 in their experiment, and it results in a temperature difference of a few degrees. Replicating the atmosphere of Venus and proclaiming CO2 to be a greenhouse gas is a bit overreaching, yes?

So far, I've seen experiments or studies where the entire Earth or the entire atmosphere is used as a test bed. I didn't go to college, but doesn't basic scientific method dictate that you test one variable at a time? How is this possible if you use the whole atmosphere?

What I have not seen, and what Henry Pool also wants to see, is a simple experiment with 2 enclosed boxes.

Box A: ambient air, some dirt and water at the bottom.

Box B: air with 500ppm CO2, some dirt and water at the bottom.

Put a sun lamp on them. Record the temp until it maxes. Shut the sun lamps off. Record the temp until it reaches its low point. Compare the two.

Repeat the experiment with Box B having 750PPM, 1000ppm, 2000ppm CO2.

This elementary experiment, which should be the cornerstone of the global warming argument, is nowhere to be found. Why am I having such difficulties finding this experiment? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

The absence of this experiment, or the difficulties in me finding it, speaks volumes.

I get the sneaking suspicion that any temperature changes would be absolutely minuscule, and that's why such an experiment is not easy to find.

 

paul.fr

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How much is the increase in CO2 every year?
« Reply #52 on: 16/07/2009 19:51:10 »
To be honest, I did come across these two experiments:

http://www.espere.net/Unitedkingdom/water/uk_watexpgreenhouse.htm

If you found Espere, did you also find thire climate encyclopedia? From memory, it has quizzes at the end of chapters / sections so you can see if you understood what you have just read.

CLIMATE ENCYCLOPEDIA

You can even download it, free of charge, HERE
 

Offline Richard345

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How much is the increase in CO2 every year?
« Reply #53 on: 16/07/2009 22:03:04 »
Thanks Paul. I'll download the entire PDF and come back to the thread in the coming days.
 

paul.fr

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How much is the increase in CO2 every year?
« Reply #54 on: 16/07/2009 22:40:50 »
Im pretty sure you can only take the quizzes on the online version, but the pdf is well worth dowloading and keeping.
At the end of the day all you can do is read whats out there and make your own mind up, but do keep questioning both sides of the argument. Even when you have decided which side you favour, keep reading what they both put out and see if their or your position changes. Both side do publish peer reviewed work, both sides have their critics of the other, and both sides have people with great personalities who can easily persuade you that they are right.

Two places to start are:

ICECAP

ICECAP, International Climate and Environmental Change Assessment Project, is the portal to all things climate for elected officials and staffers, journalists, scientists, educators and the public. It provides access to a new and growing global society of respected scientists and journalists that are not deniers that our climate is dynamic (the only constant in nature is change) and that man plays a role in climate change through urbanization, land use changes and the introduction of greenhouse gases and aerosols, but who also believe that natural cycles such as those in the sun and oceans are also important contributors to the global changes in our climate and weather. We worry the sole focus on greenhouse gases and the unwise reliance on imperfect climate models while ignoring real data may leave civilization unprepared for a sudden climate shift that history tells us will occur again, very possibly soon. 

Through ICECAP you will have rapid access to our experts here in the United States and to experts and partner organizations worldwide, many of whom maintain popular web sites or insightful blogs or newsletters, write and present papers, have authored books and offer interviews to the media on climate issues. We spotlight new findings in peer-review papers and reports and rapidly respond to fallacies or exaggerations in papers, stories or programs and any misinformation efforts by the media, politicians and advocacy groups.

ICECAP is not funded by large corporations that might benefit from the status quo but by private investors who believe in the need for free exchange of ideas on this and other important issues of the day. Our working group is comprised of members from all ends of the political spectrum. This is not about politics but about science.

We are an open society that welcomes your membership and appreciates your endorsement and support.  Icecap is now a 501C3 corporation. As such, contributions are tax exempt under section 170 of the Internal Revenue Code. Any bequests, transfers or gifts are also exempt under sections 2055, 2106 and 2522 of the code. For your records, we are ICECAP US.

REAL CLIMATE

RealClimate is a commentary site on climate science by working climate scientists for the interested public and journalists. We aim to provide a quick response to developing stories and provide the context sometimes missing in mainstream commentary. The discussion here is restricted to scientific topics and will not get involved in any political or economic implications of the science
 

Offline Henry Pool

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How much is the increase in CO2 every year?
« Reply #55 on: 20/09/2009 07:25:16 »
Hi there. I have posted my in the "new theory" box but it seems Ben decided to close it. Anyway I decided to share my experiences as to how I came to my theory. I grew up as a young man in western Europe where it was mostly cold and wet and humid. I remember only feeling the "heat" (which we know is infra red) of the sun only during a few weeks in summer, if we were lucky. I then moved to Africa and we live inland where it is very dry, humidity usually below 30%. Now  here we do feel the heat the sun! Both in winter and in summer. In fact in summer the heat is so scorching that only after ten minutes you will look for cover or shade. But on a sunny day moving to the coast going from west to east on the same height you can actually see a) a rise in humidity the nearer you get to the sea and b)  a lowering of the temperature. You can actually feel that the heat from the sun is being lessened by the presence of water vapor. These experiences of mine were like the apple on Newtons head and in my mind I was able to formulate a simple rule: the higher the humidity the less infra red heat you feel from the sun, the cooler it gets. Obviously we know that carbondioxide reacts similar to water vapor, so from this I was able to formulate the general rule: the higher the humidity and carbon dioxide levels the more it covers us as a shield against infra red. So all this talk about the greenhouse effect and then to ignore the cooling effect makes no sense to me whatsoever.  Hence here is my theory, for those who are interested:If carbon dioxide traps infra red radiation (IR) from earth (keeping us warm) then it must follow that carbon dioxide also blocks IR coming from the sun (similar to ozone blocking UV, keeping us cool). So the logical question everyone must ask, is: what is the nett effect, especially at the relevant levels of carbon dioxide 0.02-0.04%? Using my body as the sensor, I can measure that the IR coming from earth must be a lot less than the IR coming from the sun. This means that the cooling effect of carbon dioxide must be greater than the warming up effect. So I say: carbon dioxide is good. So my theory is this:Global warming is probably caused by energy released by human activities and/or unseen volcanic activity in the oceans or the change in salinity in the water , & probably has little or nothing at all to do with the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. (Human population has doubled in the past 50 years).


 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #56 on: 20/09/2009 09:55:48 »
That's not a theory,it's a collection of logical fallacies.
That may explain why it was locked.
I sugest that you lookup the definition of relative humididty; in pparticular how it relates to absolute humidity and the effect that temperature has on that relationship.
Here's a quick summary.
If you take some air and heat it, the relative humidity falls.
So, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the low RH in the centre of Africa is due to the high temperature. The high temperature is, in turn, due to the distance from the sea.

I guess we can close this thread too now.
 

Offline Henry Pool

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How much is the increase in CO2 every year?
« Reply #57 on: 20/09/2009 11:48:27 »
I did not start this thread again to have another debate or discussion. Believe it or not, but I am actually worried that my theory is correct. If it is, we will be making the wrong decisions in Copenhagen. All I am asking for is to see the results of actual measurements of actual tests caried out during actual experiments that will give a clear answer to the logical and relevant question that I asked. We need to help each other here, that is why I posted again. If you do not have the figures then I suggest you do not interfere.
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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How much is the increase in CO2 every year?
« Reply #58 on: 20/09/2009 12:37:22 »
What cooling effect? Carbon dioxide absorbs IR energy, meaning the atmosphere is heated. Where else do you think the energy goes?

If you shield your face from a fireplace it will make your face cooler, but it won't cool the whole room down will it.
 

Offline Henry Pool

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How much is the increase in CO2 every year?
« Reply #59 on: 20/09/2009 13:29:57 »
So where does the UV go that is being blocked by ozone? The term absorbtion comes from the way as to how we measure this blocking action (with an infra red spectrophotometer). If I can feel and notice a  difference in the heat from the sun on earth when humidity is high,then surely that additional Infra red (heat) must have been mirrored to outside? Perhaps the H2O and CO2 molecules keep on working as mirrors even when it is saturated in heat? I can also reverse your question: why is heat trapped when IR from earth bounces back to earth due to the presence of H2O and CO2 in the atmosphere. Is it not precisely because of the blocking action and the molecules being saturated with heat?
Anyway, as I said, I am not really interested in starting another debate or discussion. I am hoping to find someone who has some real figures from some real experiments that would somehow convince me that that 0.01 % increase in carbon dioxide that happened over the past 50 years is really significant. (please note the logical question that I am posing in my theory. )   
 

Offline Bored chemist

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How much is the increase in CO2 every year?
« Reply #60 on: 20/09/2009 15:51:27 »

OK, for a start if this "I did not start this thread again to have another debate or discussion. " is true then you are on the wrong website.
You say "Believe it or not, but I am actually worried that my theory is correct. "
Well, stop worrying- you are totally and hopelessly wrong.

"So where does the UV go that is being blocked by ozone?"
It is turned into heat.

"surely that additional Infra red (heat) must have been mirrored to outside? "
No.
Why can you not understand that the IR isn't reflected at all?
it is absorbed.
"The term absorbtion comes from the way as to how we measure this blocking action "
No, it doesn't. It comes from the fact that the IR is absorbed. For what it's worth you can do measurements of IR reflectance and  at wavelengths where the stuff absorbs radiation it doesn't reflect it.

"(please note the logical question that I am posing in my theory. "
You have yet to put forward anything remotely close to a theory.
Your ideas are based on a total misunderstanding of the effects of the sun's radiation. Accordingly, you have yet to ask any logical question.
 

Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #61 on: 20/09/2009 16:51:02 »
I thought I had asked for the relevant measurements and the figures? So where are they? You don't have them??? I am glad that you are sure that I am 100% wrong. It seems to me when it comes to the theory about carbon dioxide you just have to have "faith" . I am gald you are one of the "fainth" . But your figures have not convinced me.You can laugh at me - it does not really bother me. I am still standing.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #62 on: 20/09/2009 20:19:22 »
"I thought I had asked for the relevant measurements and the figures? So where are they?"

This graph of the figures
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/
was posted as the first reply to the first time you asked the question.
Had you forgotten?
Why ask silly questions like "So where are they? You don't have them?"

And it's not a matter of "faith" that gases absorb IR.
I sometimes use a photoacoustic IR spectrometer at work.
If the gas didn't absorb IR it wouldn't heat up so there wouldn't be a pressure change so the microphone wouldn't get a signal and the thing wouldn't work.

My assertion that CO2 and water absorb IR is based on my own personal observation. There are, of course, other observations made by other people all over the world doing similar things.

You may be still standing but your ideas don't stand up; they never did.
The reason they don't stand up is that they do not fit with reality, yet you continue to trot them out.
The one blinded by faith is you not the rest of us.
 

Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #63 on: 21/09/2009 06:00:57 »
Ok, I will try and explain to those of you who really want to understand. First of all, even though infra red is warm/hot to the skin, it still behaves like light. To infra red, the molecules of water and carbondioxide are like 2 way mirrors. They form a three dimensional sherical ring up in the air, thereby acting as a complete spherical mirror. During the night when infra red is reflected from earth into the air, the mirrors act as a reflector and the infra red bounces at an angle back to earth. This explains the greenhouse effect that we do notice. During the day, the infra red of the sun hits the mirror on the outside and again the infra red is deflected at an angle, which means that most of it will be scattered back into space. This explains my observation that the heat from the sun becomes less when I see that the humidity rises. So my theory is as it stands. One of my main questions is still: what ,if anything, would a difference of 0.01% in CO2 make if most of the greenhouse effect is caused by moisture? Why does nobody talk about the cooling effect that I have observed?
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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How much is the increase in CO2 every year?
« Reply #64 on: 21/09/2009 10:38:57 »
Are you even reading any of our replies?
 

Offline Henry Pool

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How much is the increase in CO2 every year?
« Reply #65 on: 21/09/2009 11:26:08 »
The replies do not fit my own observations?
 

Offline Henry Pool

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How much is the increase in CO2 every year?
« Reply #66 on: 21/09/2009 16:53:40 »
I did check the textbook on the absorption issue. It says that a little energy is indeed absorbed, but most of the infra red is re-emitted back. So I think all three of us were right? I think my mirror protrayal is still reasonable.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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How much is the increase in CO2 every year?
« Reply #67 on: 21/09/2009 19:09:08 »
I did check the textbook on the absorption issue. It says that a little energy is indeed absorbed, but most of the infra red is re-emitted back. So I think all three of us were right? I think my mirror protrayal is still reasonable.
No competent textbook will tell you that IR is reflected by CO2- the clouds reflect some, but that's another matter.

Much energy is absorbed. For wavelengths where CO2 is a reasonable absorber essentially none gets through- it's all absorbed.

Only two of the 3 of us were right - and you are the odd one out.

Why on earth do you think that it's reasonable to portray something which, if you could see in the IR would look black, as a mirror?

Do you understand that this idea of yours "To infra red, the molecules of water and carbondioxide are like 2 way mirrors. " is quite simply wrong.
There is ample evidence against it and no evidence for it.

"Why does nobody talk about the cooling effect that I have observed?"
We have talked about it at some length. We have pointed out that it is nonsensical. You do not cool something by letting it absorb radiation and, no matter how often you say otherwise, CO2 does't reflect IR it either lets it through or it absorbs it.
We have also explained that using a black umbrella might keep the sun off you- but it doesn't stop the earth picking up that heat.
I admit we have not even started on the fact that the most likely reason you feel hotter when the RH is high is because you are sweating- no offense; humans are the sweatiest aninmals on the plannet so of course the humididty affects how hot or cold we feel.
Did you not realise this?
Do you not understand what sweating is for?
 

Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #68 on: 21/09/2009 19:45:25 »
Quote from Wikipedia (on the interpretation of the greenhouse effect): "The Earth's surface and the clouds absorb visible and invisible radiation from the sun and re-emit much of the energy as infrared back to the atmosphere. Certain substances in the atmosphere, chiefly cloud droplets and water vapor, but also carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, sulfur hexafluoride, and chlorofluorocarbons,[23] absorb this infrared, and re-radiate it in all directions including back to Earth." End of quote.
This quote supports my theory. It also supports the cooling effect: the water & CO2 radiates and dissipates the IR from the Sun (in all directions, including much of it back to outer space). This explains why I can feel that the heat is lessened when the humidity increases.
The sweat issue is something else, has to with biology. Ask Chris..

As we all know, the humidity in the air is much more than the carbon dioxide. Again, the real question (which everyone keeps avoiding)is: whatever would a difference of only 0.01% carbondioxide make? Even if you  cannot accept my theory, cannot you see that this whole carbon emission issue is a complete and total non-issue?
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #69 on: 22/09/2009 09:49:23 »


"The Earth's surface and the clouds absorb visible and invisible radiation from the sun and re-emit much of the energy as infrared back to the atmosphere. Certain substances in the atmosphere, chiefly cloud droplets and water vapor, but also carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, sulfur hexafluoride, and chlorofluorocarbons, absorb this infrared, and re-radiate it in all directions including back to Earth."

The word reflect isn't even in there
 

Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #70 on: 22/09/2009 10:59:34 »
"and re-radiate it in all directions including back to Earth"
it is just a choice of words, re-radiate= reflect?
So, to explain to you the cooling effect of humidity and carbon dioxide that I have observed I could say: the infra red from the sun is absorbed and re-radiated in all directions including back to space (for at least 50%). I assume you know the properties of light? It cannot get stuck in the atmosphere. No need for insulting pictures.
 

Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #71 on: 22/09/2009 15:10:45 »
"I did check the textbook on the absorption issue. It says that a little energy is indeed absorbed, but most of the infra red is re-emitted back. So I think all three of us were right? I think my mirror protrayal is still reasonable"

Do we all agree on this point now? Or do you still have another opinion/quote? The molecules can only absorb a little bit, until it is saturated which is why we can measure it with FTIR.After that, the molecules re-emit or re-radiate the IR or whatever term you prefer to use. My mirror idea was just used as a way to explain what I see is happening.
 
 

Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #72 on: 23/09/2009 04:18:17 »
Geewhizz! what happened? Are all the tails between the legs? Surely, everyone can understand that the same physical laws that cause the greenhouse effect also cause the cooling effect? Come to think of it, the cooling effect of carbon dioxide might be more because I think in 12 hours the sun puts a hell of lot more IR out than the earth in 24 hours as earth is covered mostly in water.
Where does that leave us with global warming? Well, I remember somebody on this forum saying: let us have a planet, add more carbon dioxide, see if the temperature goes up, it did, so that must be it. The tragedy: this is exactly what happened. We have Al Gore and a couple of profs in the US who said the same thing: see, the temp rises as the CO2 rises!(1). That must be it. Then they analysed ice cores going back as much as 650000 years. Then they said, and I quote:" whenever the carbondioxide was higher the climate was warmer." So I asked myself: but why were there periods in history (before man) where the carbondioxide was higher? Well, where does all carbondioxide come from? Wow, it comes from volcanic activities (2)! That is why life exists. So when there is more volcanic activity, should we not expect a temperature rise? So that explains that correlation. Efforts by me to get in touch with Al Gore have not been successfull. So that DVD of him you can also throw out of the window. 
I thought I would just poke some fun with the naked scientists by posting my theory on the website. Shake things up a bit. Wanted a laugh. See if you have some figures to prove me wrong. Now I realize this is not a joke. This is really a tragedy. Because if, as I suspect, global warming is not caused by carbon dioxide, then what does? well I have given you the clues in (1) and (2). CO2 rises as the population increases. More energy is released. Simple arithmetic. Luckily, if I am right, we donot have to worry anymore about reducing carbon emissions.We have to reduce energy output per person. We have to steal energy from nature. Nuclear is not green. Secondly, we have to make sure that there is no  volcanic activity going on somewhere that we are not aware of. Perhaps all the atomic boms that were exploded in the Indian Ocean may have caused instability in that region. Hence, earthquakes and tsunamis in that region. Does somebody have temperature measurements of the oceans? Perhaps we can pick up something unusual there.
I am signing off again. I hope I made you laugh. 
 

Offline SkepticSam

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How much is the increase in CO2 every year?
« Reply #73 on: 23/09/2009 04:59:10 »
Henry. The answer to your initial question is 1.5 ppm or 7 billion tons 3.5 billion are reabsorbed by various means and the other 3.5 billion reamains airbourne. I'm sure someone has already said this.

Have you read about stratospheric cooling?

Why do you want to know oceanic temperatures? And do you want surface or temperatures from depth?
Being a skeptic and questioning is a good thing, but you do need to do some research before you do the questioning. Simply asking for information when you have already made your mind up that it's wrong is not cricket.

As for oceanic temperatures, there is a whole new argument gong on there with different data sets. If you really want to have this data then it's avaliable from NOAA, NCAR and various skeptic sources.

Hope this helps.   
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #74 on: 23/09/2009 12:36:58 »
"and re-radiate it in all directions including back to Earth"
it is just a choice of words, re-radiate= reflect?
So, to explain to you the cooling effect of humidity and carbon dioxide that I have observed I could say: the infra red from the sun is absorbed and re-radiated in all directions including back to space (for at least 50%). I assume you know the properties of light? It cannot get stuck in the atmosphere. No need for insulting pictures.


The light that comes from the Sun goes mostly into heating up the ground and ocean. When the surface becomes heated, it starts radiating infra-red light. This energy would radiate straight back out into space if it were not for greenhouse gases, which, because they absorb infra-red light, become heated from it. So it's holding energy in. It doesn't block the energy from getting to the surface because it's mostly in other wavelengths on the way in, but after it's converted to infra-red then the greenhouse gases absorb it on the way out.

Where's the cooling effect?
 

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