# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: is time drived from motion ?  (Read 4352 times)

#### amrit

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##### is time drived from motion ?
« on: 19/04/2009 10:22:35 »
According to my research motion is not derived from time, it is opposite, time is derived from motion.

Today in physics there are two fundamental approaches to time. The first and most common approach says we use clocks to measure the time component of space-time, space and time being cofounded as the basis of physical reality. However this approach has no experimental support. There is no evidence whatsoever that clocks measure one aspect of space-time, and in truth we cannot observe space-time at all. The second approach says time is cofounded with motion through space. This approach is supported by experiment and observation. We employ clocks to accumulate local internal motion, and then use the result to calibrate duration. This is then employed in the measurement of external motion or material change, and the comparative rate of such change. Our evidence tells us that this rate of change varies with gravity, being commonly known as gravitational time dilation. However we can only measure space and motion, not time, and thus we must assert that the true basis of fundamental reality is space and motion rather than space-time. This means that space itself is in some respect timeless.

#### lyner

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##### is time drived from motion ?
« Reply #1 on: 19/04/2009 13:00:30 »
The equation:
v = s/t
doesn't imply a particular cause - effect relationship and what you say is not unreasonable. It's just a more complicated way of looking at things, I think.

#### amrit

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##### is time drived from motion ?
« Reply #2 on: 19/04/2009 13:44:00 »
The equation:
v = s/t
doesn't imply a particular cause - effect relationship and what you say is not unreasonable. It's just a more complicated way of looking at things, I think.

you move your hand in space only and not in time
when you move it with a speed 0,5 m/s you will need 1 second for one meter. But clock as your hand moves in space only and not in time.
http://www.fqxi.org/data/forum-attachments/TIME_IS_DERIVED_FROM_MOTION.pdf

#### lyner

• Guest
##### is time drived from motion ?
« Reply #3 on: 19/04/2009 21:21:07 »
But the time changes (not controllable by you, admitted) and the position changes. You are traveling 'through' both!

#### amrit

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##### is time drived from motion ?
« Reply #4 on: 22/04/2009 12:53:20 »
you travel in space only
and time is a clock run that measures duration and speed of your travelling

#### amrit

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##### is time drived from motion ?
« Reply #5 on: 24/04/2009 12:53:44 »
real time is clocks run
immaginary time is a math model.
http://www.fqxi.org/data/forum-attachments/REAL_TIME_IS_CLOCKS_RUN_Sorli_2009.pdf

#### _Stefan_

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##### is time drived from motion ?
« Reply #6 on: 24/04/2009 16:23:37 »
Clocks simply represent, or measure time.

#### Chemistry4me

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##### is time drived from motion ?
« Reply #7 on: 25/04/2009 04:38:52 »
Well said mate, well said. I could NOT have done better.

#### amrit

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 103
• Power of science is uncompromised search for truth
##### is time drived from motion ?
« Reply #8 on: 26/04/2009 09:19:15 »
Well said mate, well said. I could NOT have done better.

i would no agree, see below

There is no experimental evidence whatsoever to support the view that space-time exists as the basis of fundamental physical reality. We cannot observe space-time directly, nor can we actually observe a world line, or a light cone. We should remember that space-time is an abstraction, a 3+1 dimensional "mathematical space" devised for ease of calculation. In real experiments we observe motion or the resulting changes in physical space. Space is the arena in which massive bodies move and particles interact. The motion and change is patently observable, we can literally measure a distance, and we can be utterly confident that space exists. We employ clocks to measure duration and we record a sequencing to the motion and the material changes that occur in space. Here time is derived from clocks whose internal mechanisms are themselves in cyclic motion through physical space. Physical space itself is therefore timeless, time is derived from motion through it, and negative motion is an impossibility. Thus travel to the past is out of the question.

A growing number of modern researchers are challenging the view that space-time is the fundamental arena of the universe. They point out that it does not correspond to physical reality, and propose “timeless space” as the arena instead. One recent paper on arxiv is A New Geometric Framework for the Foundations of Quantum Theory and the Role Played by Gravity (1). Another recent paper says “We illustrate our proposal using a toy model where we show how the Lorentzian signature and Nordstroem gravity (a diffeomorphisms invariant scalar gravity theory) can emerge from a timeless non-dynamical space” (2). Julian Barbour says in The Nature of Time: “I will not claim that time can be definitely banished from physics; the universe might be infinite, and black holes present some problems for the time picture. Nevertheless, I think it is entirely possible, indeed likely, that time as such plays no role in the universe” (3). Such challenges are nothing new, and go back as far as Aristotle. Even Ernst Mach said: “It is utterly beyond our power to measure the changes of things by time. Quite the contrary, time is an abstraction, at which we arrive by means of the changes of things”.

Time and clocks are man-made inventions. Motion is primary, time is secondary. Time is an artifice of measurement, a useful tool that permits us to build mental and mathematical models for our daily lives as well as for our physics and cosmology. But time as a fundamental entity has no role in physics.

With a concept of time cofounded with motion rather than space, a new interpretation of relativity emerges. In the Special Theory of Relativity, the rate of clocks and material change is reduced within a fast-moving inertial system. In the General Theory of Relativity, the rate of clocks and material change is similarly reduced within a gravity well. This understanding easily resolves the Twins Paradox. They do not live in time, they live in space. They are made up of atoms and electrons, and as evidenced by pair production and annihilation, they are quite literally "made of light". Each twin might observe reduced local motion in his brother and so reduced ageing, but the twin in the spaceship returns younger than his brother on Earth because his travelling motion through the universe was at the cost of local motion within his body. His reduced rate of local motion was labelled as time dilation, but time is merely a by-product of motion. Clocks "clock up" motion, not time.

Some research indicates that timeless quantum communication is a real phenomenon: “We show how continuous-variable systems can allow the direct communication of messages with an acceptable degree of privacy. This is possible by combining a suitable phase-space encoding of the plain message with real-time checks of the quantum communication channel. The resulting protocol works properly when a small amount of noise affects the quantum channel. If this noise is non-tolerable, the protocol stops leaving a limited amount of information to a potential eavesdropper” (4).
Here it is considered that information does not move through space-time, but instead moves through space, an immediate medium for identifiable quanta. This is echoed by the concept of a photon as a particle which "experiences no time", long-wave radio reminding us that a photon is an extended entity perhaps 1500m long rather than a point particle. The EPR experiment similarly reminds us that physical space is a timeless environment. There is no discernible signal in the form of a photon travelling between A and B. The time of information transfer between A and B is essentially zero, and we might infer that they are similar extended entities which experience no time (5).

Causality problems for Fermi’s two-atom system
Physical space as an “immediate information medium” resolves the causality problem of Fermi two-atom system: “Let A and B be two atoms or, more generally, a ‘‘source’’ and a ‘‘detector’’ separated by some distance R. At t=0 A is in an excited state, B in its ground state, and no photons are present. A theorem is proved that in contrast to Einstein causality and finite signal velocity, the excitation probability of B is non-zero immediately after t=0. Implications are discussed” (6). The excitation probability of B is non-zero because the space in which atoms exists is an “immediate medium of excitation”. There is no time needed for information or excitation to transfer from A to B. Since instantaneous action at a distance remains an uncomfortable concept, we might again infer that A and B are extended entities which experience no time.

Timeless Physical Phenomena
From the above in conjunction with the second approach to time, certain physical phenomena might be said to be timeless, wherein no measurable time can be said to have elapsed. For example within Attosecond Ionization and Tunneling Delay Time Measurements in Helium by Eckle et al, a conclusion is drawn wherein "an electron can tunnel through the potential barrier of a He atom in practically no time"(7).

In similar vein a recent arxiv paper depicts a system of diagrams to represent the various elements of a quantum circuit, in a form which makes no reference to time (8).

According to loop quantum gravity, space itself consists of quanta (9). Taking into account references 4,5,6,7,8 the perspective gained is that energy/information is transferred between spatial quanta whose size is governed by the Planck length. According to this interpretation, the time (t) of direct quantum energy/information transfer between quanta is zero, whilst velocity (v) is infinite. On the other hand, the time (t) of indirect quantum energy/information transfer via photons is more than zero, whilst velocity (v) is light speed.

(I),(E)            immediate (timeless) transfer

(I),(E)          temporal transfer

Real Time and Imaginary Time
Another recent paper examines tunneling: “The physical meaning of the zero real time is that the particle instantly jumps from one side of the barrier to the other regardless of the thickness. This leads to the illusion that tunneling particles could actually travel faster than light. The results of recent experiments in quantum optics concerning tunneling time can be thought of as the first experimental confirmation of the existence of imaginary time. Relativity is not violated” (10).
The interpretation here is that real time t is the familiar time of clocks, and imaginary time it is a component of a mathematical fourth dimension X4 = i c t. With X4 we describe the motion of particles that move at c. X4 is a “coordinate of motion” in timeless space. Tunneling particles cannot travel in mathematical imaginary time it, they transfer immediately through timeless physical space from one side of a barrier to the other. Hence X4 as a coordinate of motion of “light speed particles” is not appropriate for describing of tunneling particles motion.

Conclusion
When physical objects move, they move through space, not through space-time, and not through time. Time is derived from this motion through space, and space itself is timeless. Whilst the speed of light is considered to be a maximum rate of motion above Planck level. At the Planck level energy and information transfers are immediate, timeless. Clocks are macroscopic measuring devices which accumulate local internal motion, and we can record a sequencing of that motion and the changes that occur in space. But we can find no evidence to support the existence of space-time as a fundamental entity. Accordingly we must conclude that we live in a timeless atemporal universe of space and motion, where the past and future only exist in the human mind. Distinguishing between real time t that is clocks run and imaginary time it that is a component of fourth dimension X4 (X4=ict) of mathematical model called "space-time" is essential for further development of theoretical physics.

Acknowledgement: I would like to express my gratitude to John Duffield for his translation assistance.

References:

1. T.N.Palmer, The Invariant Set Hypothesis: A New Geometric Framework for the Foundations of Quantum Theory and the Role Played by Gravity, Submitted on 5 Dec 2008, last revised 17 Feb 2009, http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.1148

2. Florian Girelli, Stefano Liberati, Lorenzo Sindoni, Is the notion of time really fundamental?
Submitted on 27 Mar 2009 http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.4876

3. Julian Barbour, The Nature of Time, submitted on 20 Mar 2009,
http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3489

4. S. Pirandola and others, Quantum direct communication with continuous variables, A
Leters Journal Exploring Frontier of Physics (2008)

5. Fiscaletti D. Sorli A.S. Non-locality and the Symmetryzed Quantum Potential , Physics
Essays, 21(4), (2008)

6. Gerhard C. Hegerfeldt. Causality problems for Fermi’s two-atom system, Phys. Rev. Lett.
72, 596 - 599 (1994) http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v72/i5/p596_1

7. P. Eckle, A. N. Pfeiffer, C. Cirelli, A. Staudte, R. Dörner, H. G. Muller, M. Büttiker, U. Keller,
Attosecond Ionization and Tunneling Delay Time Measurements in Helium, Science, Vol. 322. no. 5907, pp. 1525 – 1529 (2008) http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/322/5907/1525

8. Robert B. Griffiths, Shengjun Wu, Li Yu, Scott M. Cohen, Atemporal diagrams for quantum
circuits, submitted on 21 Jul 2005, http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0507215

9. C. Rovelli, “Loop quantum gravity”, Physics World, November (2003)

10. Zhong Chao Wu, The Imaginary Time in the Tunneling Process, submitted on 1 Apr 2008,
http://arxiv.org/abs/0804.0210

#### amrit

• Sr. Member
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• Power of science is uncompromised search for truth
##### is time drived from motion ?
« Reply #9 on: 28/04/2009 14:10:01 »
Distinguishing between real time t that is clocks run and imaginary time it that is a component of fourth dimension X4 (X4=ict) of mathematical model called "space-time" is essential for further development of theoretical physics. Saying that imaginary time it is a fourth coordinate X4 of space-time is not precise, because X4 is a product of light speed c and imaginary time it. In order of unification of real time and imaginary time it is proposed here that X4 can be written without i: X4 = ct, where X4 is a real coordinate of motion in timeless space. A math model of space-time is developed into a math model of space-motion.

#### amrit

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##### is time drived from motion ?
« Reply #10 on: 05/05/2009 12:56:54 »
Famous English Philosopher Mc Tarrgat concluded in 1908:
Anything Existent Cannot Posses the Characterictic of Being in Time.

http://www.fqxi.org/data/forum-attachments/Why_Anything_Existent_Cannot__Possess_the_Characteristic_of_Being_in_Time_SORLI_2009__MIND.pdf

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##### is time drived from motion ?
« Reply #10 on: 05/05/2009 12:56:54 »