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Author Topic: Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?  (Read 13176 times)

Offline common_sense_seeker

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« on: 22/04/2009 18:04:50 »
It would explain the geomagnetic field more easily. The outer fluid core would flow through the center from north to south. Geomagnetic pole reversals could be explained by the wobble of the inner core relative to the fluid outer core. I even have an idea that is composed of tightly packed neutrons and of a super-high density. It would imply that the sun's inner core was similar in shape and density. It would solve the missing mass problem, due to the fact that it would mean that the mass values from the Cavendish experiment would be severely underestimated. He made a massive assumption in declaring that the entire Earth was composed of the same stuff as lead balls! He's only guessing! Now we have a situation where a quantum theory of gravity appears unobtainable. No wonder!
It's simple psychology when you think about it! lol!


 

Offline Bored chemist

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #1 on: 22/04/2009 20:33:49 »
"He made a massive assumption in declaring that the entire Earth was composed of the same stuff as lead balls! "
Don't talk balls.
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #2 on: 23/04/2009 01:50:06 »
A donut? How exactly do you think it looks like? How thick is this donut?
« Last Edit: 23/04/2009 12:29:38 by Chemistry4me »
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #3 on: 23/04/2009 12:25:03 »
"He made a massive assumption in declaring that the entire Earth was composed of the same stuff as lead balls! "
Don't talk balls.
He's assumed it's similarly baryonic, i.e. made of neutrons and protons. But baryonic matter is mainly empty space due to the distance of the electron bonds between nucleii. Simple 'neutronium' wouldn't have this limiation and could be thousands of times more dense than everyday matter. If matter is more dense than the incoming gravitational field particle flux density, then Newton's law doesn't apply. This is because some of the matter doesn't interact with the incomin gravitons.
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #4 on: 23/04/2009 12:27:45 »
A donut? How exactly do you think it looks like? How think is this donut?

http://prodev.iris.edu/OnePagers/ishii.pdf check this out. An innermost inner core has been discovered. I think that they have just found the hole running down the middle! It explains the geomagnetic field and pole reversals! http://www.spacedaily.com/news/earth-02z.html
 

Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #5 on: 23/04/2009 12:30:11 »
You seem pretty enthusiastic about this idea...
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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« Reply #6 on: 24/04/2009 11:39:53 »
"He made a massive assumption in declaring that the entire Earth was composed of the same stuff as lead balls! "
Don't talk balls.
I've thought about it a bit more. Cavendish was correct in his assumptions. I think that the calculated density of the Earth is correct. It is the subsequent calculation of the mass of the Sun which has the potential to be an underestimate. The gravitational field potential of a body can be determined from the number of it's fundamental particles i.e. it's mass. BUT the force experienced by a body in a gravitational field potential has to be determined from the number and spacing of the fundamental particles i.e. it's density. Newton's big mistake is assuming that a body can be considered a point mass. This is okay when considering a planet or Sun as the radiating body of a gravitational field. BUT when particles are considered as the force carrier, then the direct interaction of these with the subject mass has to be modelled. This depends on the relative densities of the field and the object mass. If the object density is higher than the incoming gravitons, then the acceleration of that object will be lower than anticipated, due to the fact that not all mass particles interact with the gravity field at a particular moment in time.(It's a tricky concept to get your head around)
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #7 on: 24/04/2009 11:47:31 »
You seem pretty enthusiastic about this idea...
It's because I have used a 'jigsaw-like' method of modelling reality. This idea of a super-high density core which is doughnut shaped can explain the ice age cycle mystery of 100,000 years. It is the core's irregular shape which presents a slightly increasing cross-sectional area to the Sun's gravity field every 100,000 years, which relates to the inclination of the earth's orbit. This is the drift above and below the Sun's ecliptic plane (it's equatorial plane is a simpler idea). This difference causes a significant difference in the earth's tidal effects. It is the extra mixing with the cold ocean bottoms which causes the global temperature drop. (again this is a tricky concept to convey)
 

Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #8 on: 24/04/2009 14:17:19 »
There is nothing whatsoever in any of the links you have posted that suggests there is a doughnut shaped inner core. Indeed quite the opposite.Here, taken from your Space Daily link "An odd, previously unknown sphere, some 360 miles in diameter, has been found at the bottom of the Earth."

Even without considering the other problems with your speculations the absence of any evidence for a doughnut shaped core should end this thread right here.
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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« Reply #9 on: 24/04/2009 14:36:13 »
There is nothing whatsoever in any of the links you have posted that suggests there is a doughnut shaped inner core. Indeed quite the opposite.Here, taken from your Space Daily link "An odd, previously unknown sphere, some 360 miles in diameter, has been found at the bottom of the Earth."

Even without considering the other problems with your speculations the absence of any evidence for a doughnut shaped core should end this thread right here.
There's TWO propositions that I'm making. The 'doughnut' or toroidal shape of the inner core is a guess that has the potential to solve many unresolved modelling problems of the Earth's interior. The other main point is that the material of the discovered innermost inner core could be totally unique i.e. tightly packed neutrons of super-high density. When this is considered w.r.t to gravitons being the force carrier, there is a potential problem with Netwon's law of attracting bodies. I believe that Einstein's 'rubber sheet' analogy is actually incorrect and too simplistic, due to the fact that it fails to model the spacing of the mass particles of a secondary object i.e. it's density. The reason a quantum theory of gravity is unachievable in modern day physics is because Newton and Einstein didn't think in terms of 'gravitons' from the beginning. The mathematics evoked from these early stages of work is simply wrong. Newton himself expressed his concerns that he didn't have a mechanism for the gravity effect.
 

Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #10 on: 24/04/2009 17:33:02 »
There's TWO propositions that I'm making. The 'doughnut' or toroidal shape of the inner core is a guess that has the potential to solve many unresolved modelling problems of the Earth's interior..
Fine. The research in no way supports your speculation for a toroidal core.
The research in no way speaks of a superdense material consisting of closely packed neutrons. Indeed the data indicate that the interior could not consist of such superdense material.

In summary, the research you are quoting offers nothing in support of your speculation that the inner core is toroidal and it refutes your contention that it consists of ultra dense, packed neutrons.

We are then left with nothing more that your own unsubstantiated speculations. Let's look at them.

1. Which unresolved modelling problems are you referring to?

2. How does a toroidal inner core address these? Let's see the math please.

3. You say "I believe that Einstein's 'rubber sheet' analogy is actually incorrect and too simplistic." Guess what. That's because it is an analogy. It's to help people who can't handle the math. Forget his rubber sheet, what wrong with his math?
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #11 on: 25/04/2009 11:28:20 »
There's TWO propositions that I'm making. The 'doughnut' or toroidal shape of the inner core is a guess that has the potential to solve many unresolved modelling problems of the Earth's interior..
Fine. The research in no way supports your speculation for a toroidal core.
The research in no way speaks of a superdense material consisting of closely packed neutrons. Indeed the data indicate that the interior could not consist of such superdense material.

In summary, the research you are quoting offers nothing in support of your speculation that the inner core is toroidal and it refutes your contention that it consists of ultra dense, packed neutrons.

We are then left with nothing more that your own unsubstantiated speculations. Let's look at them.

1. Which unresolved modelling problems are you referring to?

2. How does a toroidal inner core address these? Let's see the math please.

3. You say "I believe that Einstein's 'rubber sheet' analogy is actually incorrect and too simplistic." Guess what. That's because it is an analogy. It's to help people who can't handle the math. Forget his rubber sheet, what wrong with his math?

I've come to realise that the the toroidal inner core idea is more appropriate for the Sun; http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/02oct_oblatesun.htm. The work on the innermost inner core is too recent to rule out the possibility of a super-high density material. The unresolved modelling that I'm interested in is the 100,000 year ice age cycle. THIS IS A TOTAL MYSTERY! It's one of the most basic elements of our climate, and we cannot resolve the issue with regard to the Earth's eccentricity cycle. I believe there is a tidal explanation linked to the inclination cycle. The gravitational difference of the Earth's position above the Sun's ecliptic would have to be exaggerated for the idea to work. That's why I'm thinking laterally. The obvious other reason is that we don't have a QUANTUM THEORY OF GRAVITY. Put these two issues together and there is room for a resolution. It requires a lot of faith and thinking in pictures.

If you can consider this simple thought experiment: We all know that dropping a bunch of keys and a ball of paper at the same time will result in both of them falling at the same rate. Why exactly is this? A particle or quantum theory of gravity would explain this effect because the density of the gravitons emerging from the classroom floor is so great that all the matter particles in both the keys and paper interact with a graviton within a given unit of time. Each matter particle is given the same amount of force by the graviton, and so all objects will accelerate at the same rate. Now, if you consider a ball of tightly packed neutrons, some of these matter particles won't interact with the emerging gravitons in a given unit of time. This is because they are much more dense than even the gravitational field itself. This would have the effect of the neutron ball 'hanging in the air' momentarily because of it's inertia. A lot of it's matter particles aren't being directly forced by the gravitons and so act to slow the neutron ball in it's initial movement. This is the scenario which falsifies Newton's simple law of gravitational attraction when particle force carriers are considered. i.e. a mechanism, which Newton didn't have.
« Last Edit: 25/04/2009 11:42:58 by common_sense_seeker »
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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« Reply #12 on: 25/04/2009 12:03:21 »
There's TWO propositions that I'm making. The 'doughnut' or toroidal shape of the inner core is a guess that has the potential to solve many unresolved modelling problems of the Earth's interior..
Fine. The research in no way supports your speculation for a toroidal core.
The research in no way speaks of a superdense material consisting of closely packed neutrons. Indeed the data indicate that the interior could not consist of such superdense material.

In summary, the research you are quoting offers nothing in support of your speculation that the inner core is toroidal and it refutes your contention that it consists of ultra dense, packed neutrons.

We are then left with nothing more that your own unsubstantiated speculations. Let's look at them.

1. Which unresolved modelling problems are you referring to?

2. How does a toroidal inner core address these? Let's see the math please.

3. You say "I believe that Einstein's 'rubber sheet' analogy is actually incorrect and too simplistic." Guess what. That's because it is an analogy. It's to help people who can't handle the math. Forget his rubber sheet, what wrong with his math?

I've decided that the Sun is a more likely possibilty; http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/02oct_oblatesun.htm. It's still too early to rule out a super-high density for the earth's innermost inner core. The 100,000 year ice age cycle is still A TOTAL MYSTERY. I have a working hypothesis that the tidal increase due to the earth's inclination cycle is a likely alternative to the eccentricity cycle. (you have to have a background knowledge to know what I'm talking about). This is why I'm thinking laterally.

Consider this simple thought experiment scenario; we all know that a bunch of keys and a ball of paper fall at the same rate. But why exactly is this? If a particle or quantum theory of gravity is used, one can imagine that because the density of emerging gravitons is so high that all the matter particles interact with one in a given unit of time. This is why all objects are accelerated at the same rate, despite their weight. Now consider a ball of neutrons; it will 'hang in the air' momentarily, because not all it's matter partciles interact with the incoming gravitons. This is because it is more dense than the gravity field itself. Due to inertia, this extra unacelerated matter acts as a drag to it's initial motion. This picturing of events falsifies Newton's law of gravitational attraction. He didn't even have a mechanism for the effect remember.
 

Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #13 on: 25/04/2009 13:31:44 »
I've come to realise that the the toroidal inner core idea is more appropriate for the Sun; http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/02oct_oblatesun.htm. The work on the innermost inner core is too recent to rule out the possibility of a super-high density material.
No. You are mistaken. There is no indication from prior seismic or modelling studies that there is any super-high density material at the core of the planet. This latest research modifies earlier understanding to a small degree, but also excludes the possibility of super-high density material.

To repeat, as clearly as I can, your own cited material falsifies your hypothesis. This - along with other actions - calls into question your entire approach and suggests you are indulging in pseudo science.
1. You did made a false claim about the conlcusion of some valid research.
2. You did not understand that the research demonstrated that your idea was false.
3. When this was pointed out you repeat the misinterpretation while simultaneously switching the goal posts entirely.

The unresolved modelling that I'm interested in is the 100,000 year ice age cycle. THIS IS A TOTAL MYSTERY! It's one of the most basic elements of our climate, and we cannot resolve the issue with regard to the Earth's eccentricity cycle.
The Milankovich cycles character and causes are very well understood. To claim it is a total mystery is either revealing your depth of ignorance on this subject, or is an outright lie.
I would accept that there are details relating to this that can be refined. Perhaps you can point to specifics that concern you.

I believe there is a tidal explanation linked to the inclination cycle. The gravitational difference of the Earth's position above the Sun's ecliptic would have to be exaggerated for the idea to work. That's why I'm thinking laterally. The obvious other reason is that we don't have a QUANTUM THEORY OF GRAVITY. Put these two issues together and there is room for a resolution. It requires a lot of faith and thinking in pictures.
This has all the appearance of meaningless arm waving. Do you want to be specific.

If you can consider this simple thought experiment: ..........yah de yah de yah
This has nothing to do with the character of the Earth's core.

Would you also confirm that you can't do the math on any of this?
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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« Reply #14 on: 28/04/2009 11:34:12 »
I've come to realise that the the toroidal inner core idea is more appropriate for the Sun; http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/02oct_oblatesun.htm. The work on the innermost inner core is too recent to rule out the possibility of a super-high density material.
No. You are mistaken. There is no indication from prior seismic or modelling studies that there is any super-high density material at the core of the planet. This latest research modifies earlier understanding to a small degree, but also excludes the possibility of super-high density material.

To repeat, as clearly as I can, your own cited material falsifies your hypothesis. This - along with other actions - calls into question your entire approach and suggests you are indulging in pseudo science.
1. You did made a false claim about the conlcusion of some valid research.
2. You did not understand that the research demonstrated that your idea was false.
3. When this was pointed out you repeat the misinterpretation while simultaneously switching the goal posts entirely.

The unresolved modelling that I'm interested in is the 100,000 year ice age cycle. THIS IS A TOTAL MYSTERY! It's one of the most basic elements of our climate, and we cannot resolve the issue with regard to the Earth's eccentricity cycle.
The Milankovich cycles character and causes are very well understood. To claim it is a total mystery is either revealing your depth of ignorance on this subject, or is an outright lie.
I would accept that there are details relating to this that can be refined. Perhaps you can point to specifics that concern you.

I believe there is a tidal explanation linked to the inclination cycle. The gravitational difference of the Earth's position above the Sun's ecliptic would have to be exaggerated for the idea to work. That's why I'm thinking laterally. The obvious other reason is that we don't have a QUANTUM THEORY OF GRAVITY. Put these two issues together and there is room for a resolution. It requires a lot of faith and thinking in pictures.
This has all the appearance of meaningless arm waving. Do you want to be specific.

If you can consider this simple thought experiment: ..........yah de yah de yah
This has nothing to do with the character of the Earth's core.

Would you also confirm that you can't do the math on any of this?
No, I don't agree with your opinions at all. I re-read the article and it quite clear that the professor thinks that this new innermost inner core could be the seed of the planets formation. The clue is in the title! Everyone knows that a planet can't result from the coalescing of ordinary lumps of rock, for example. The idea of a super-high gravitationally attracting innermost core that is a remnant from the earlist material of the universe is exactly the kind of thing he is thinking of.

Your knowledge of the problems surrounding 100,000 year glacial cycle simply isn't as good as mine. I've been reading the research papers for months and discussing it in another forum.

People who keep repeating "where's the math proof" simply don't have the mental facility to realise that I'm making a case for a quantum theory of gravity. This means that conventional math isn't necessarily right. i.e. Newton's law of gravitation. It's a very tricky subject which I'm still finalising.

Edit - it's possible that the innermost core isn't toroidal but is still oblate shaped.
« Last Edit: 05/05/2009 15:56:38 by BenV »
 

Offline Ophiolite

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #15 on: 02/05/2009 09:37:50 »
No, I don't agree with your opinions at all.
I have expressed no opinions. I have made statements that are fully validated by observation of your posts, reading of your citations, or referring to the vast body of published work in these fields.
I re-read the article and it quite clear that the professor thinks that this new innermost inner core could be the seed of the planets formation.
Which has nothing whatsover to do with your claim a) that the innermost core is toroidal and b)that this research claims it is toroidal.

Moreover, you appear to have only accessed the news article on this research, not the research itself. That makes it difficult to take seriously anything your are saying.
Everyone knows that a planet can't result from the coalescing of ordinary lumps of rock, for example.
This is either profound ignorance or a blatant lie. Any astronomy textbook you care to consult, plus thousands of peer reviewed research papers explain, establish and expand the fact that planets do result from coalescing ordinary lumps of rock.

Making nonsense statements of the kind you made here completely destroys your credibility.
The idea of a super-high gravitationally attracting innermost core that is a remnant from the earlist material of the universe is exactly the kind of thing he is thinking of.
So now you also claim to be a mind reader. There is nothing, I repeat nothing in anything he has published that even suggests this is what he is thinking of. This is either a total misinterpretation on your part, spinning fantasy out of vague imaginings, or it is a lie.

Your knowledge of the problems surrounding 100,000 year glacial cycle simply isn't as good as mine. I've been reading the research papers for months and discussing it in another forum.
Please don't be any more foolish that you have to be. I have probably been studying glacial cycles on and off for as many decades as you have months.
Moreover, study does not only require reading research papers, you have to understand them. Based upon your gross misinterepretation of the work that began this discussion (the Earth's inner core)you have no skills in this area whatsoever.

People who keep repeating "where's the math proof".....
I am not asking for proof, I am asking for a provisional expression of your concept in mathematical format.

This means that conventional math isn't necessarily right. i.e. Newton's law of gravitation.
So, present your ideas in unconvetional math, or concede that you have no idea what you are talking about.
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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« Reply #16 on: 02/05/2009 12:03:47 »
What's your opinion on this report: http://muller.lbl.gov/papers/nature.html of Muller & MacDonald 'Origin of the 100 kyr Glacial Cycle: eccentricity or orbital inclination?'
« Last Edit: 05/05/2009 15:53:09 by BenV »
 

Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #17 on: 02/05/2009 12:47:35 »
What's your opinion on this report: http://muller.lbl.gov/papers/nature.html of Muller & MacDonald 'Origin of the 100 kyr Glacial Cycle: eccentricity or orbital inclination?'

(My discussion forum is: www.youforum.co.uk/believersingravityshielding)

I am studying the document now. While I am doing so can you explain why you would make an emotional statment such as "The unresolved modelling that I'm interested in is the 100,000 year ice age cycle. THIS IS A TOTAL MYSTERY!"

Anyone who has been "reading the research papers for months and discussing it in another forum" and has the appropriate "mental facility" would know that it is not considered to be a mystery. So, why would you make such an inaccurate, biased, emotive remark? Are you hoping to persuade by force of your personality and conviction? I'm interested, so do tell. 
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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« Reply #18 on: 02/05/2009 13:08:28 »
There's SIX major problems with the Milankovitch cycle explanation of the ice ages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycle.
My theory solves them all.
 

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #19 on: 02/05/2009 13:14:42 »
I don't see how a toroid shape would be stable under such extremes of pressure and temperature - unless it were spinning at an unrealistic rate, considering the high levels of drag down there. As a sphere is the most stable configuration, I'd go for that.
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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« Reply #20 on: 02/05/2009 13:20:05 »
I don't see how a toroid shape would be stable under such extremes of pressure and temperature - unless it were spinning at an unrealistic rate, considering the high levels of drag down there. As a sphere is the most stable configuration, I'd go for that.
It would have to made of 'near maximum density matter'. It's shape is a result of the evolution of it's creation. (That's another story)
 

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« Reply #21 on: 02/05/2009 22:58:47 »
What is the evidence that the pressure inside is great enough to produce this fancy sate of matter? That "other Story" needs some substantiation, I feel.
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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« Reply #22 on: 05/05/2009 15:06:41 »
I'm hoping to develop the explanation in my discussion forum: www.youforum.co.uk/believersingravityshielding

My 'quantum theory of creation' still needs expanding on. It's just a matter of time available. I'll be filling it in with the next couple of weeks.
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #23 on: 05/05/2009 15:51:57 »
Stop spamming your forum now, thanks.  You can put it in your profile, if anyone is interested they will find it there.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #24 on: 05/05/2009 20:07:25 »
"My 'quantum theory of creation' still needs expanding on. It's just a matter of time available. I'll be filling it in with the next couple of weeks."


No, it needs rubbing out and starting again; or just rubbing out.
 

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