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Author Topic: Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?  (Read 13189 times)

Offline common_sense_seeker

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #25 on: 06/05/2009 15:33:38 »
My latest reckoning is that the innermost core of the earth is most likely close to spherical. The inner core of the sun though is most likely asymmetric, perhaps 'american football' or 'rugby ball' shaped.
 

Offline Ophiolite

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #26 on: 09/05/2009 08:45:25 »
My latest reckoning is that the innermost core of the earth is most likely close to spherical. The inner core of the sun though is most likely asymmetric, perhaps 'american football' or 'rugby ball' shaped.
Well that is a relief. So we may wholly discard your original post which opened this thread. The Earth's core is not a toroid. We are agreed on that.

Several points I raised while disputing your claim went completely unanswered. It was almost as if you changed the subject when challenged. I'm sure that was just an appearance and that you overlooked these points in haste. Let us return to some of them, starting here.

Quote from: common_sense_seeker on 28/04/2009 11:34:12
Quote
Everyone knows that a planet can't result from the coalescing of ordinary lumps of rock, for example.

I responded with these words.
This is either profound ignorance or a blatant lie. Any astronomy textbook you care to consult, plus thousands of peer reviewed research papers explain, establish and expand the fact that planets do result from coalescing ordinary lumps of rock.

Would you be prepared to retract this statement? It has an equally poor foundation as your toroidal core idea and you have rightly abandoned it. Will you let this one go also? Then we might be able to make some progress.
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #27 on: 09/05/2009 10:51:54 »
My latest reckoning is that the innermost core of the earth is most likely close to spherical. The inner core of the sun though is most likely asymmetric, perhaps 'american football' or 'rugby ball' shaped.
Well that is a relief. So we may wholly discard your original post which opened this thread. The Earth's core is not a toroid. We are agreed on that.

Several points I raised while disputing your claim went completely unanswered. It was almost as if you changed the subject when challenged. I'm sure that was just an appearance and that you overlooked these points in haste. Let us return to some of them, starting here.

Quote from: common_sense_seeker on 28/04/2009 11:34:12
Quote
Everyone knows that a planet can't result from the coalescing of ordinary lumps of rock, for example.

I responded with these words.
This is either profound ignorance or a blatant lie. Any astronomy textbook you care to consult, plus thousands of peer reviewed research papers explain, establish and expand the fact that planets do result from coalescing ordinary lumps of rock.

Would you be prepared to retract this statement? It has an equally poor foundation as your toroidal core idea and you have rightly abandoned it. Will you let this one go also? Then we might be able to make some progress.
The toroidal concept was worth pursuing, I believe. This is what I used to do as a job for the MoD; feasiblity studies for new ideas. I knew the center of the earth was a long shot, but it has shown that there is still a possiblity of an asymmetric inner core of the sun.

The notion of rocks coalescing in space to form planets is very contentious. I remember seeing a NASA experiment aboard the shuttle where rocks were fired at one another to see it they stuck together! Not surprisingly, non of them did! Where are your links to the references which make this claim?
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #28 on: 09/05/2009 19:10:11 »
"The notion of rocks coalescing in space to form planets is very contentious."
No it isn't.

BTW, would the MOD pay me to do a feasibility study on the idea that the earth's core is shaped like an enormous model of Kate Winslet?
 

lyner

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #29 on: 11/05/2009 17:31:33 »
Did the pressures that NASA were using compare even remotely with the pressures at the centre of a planetary mass of rocks?
I could ask why the rocks would not coalesc. After all, the forces would be enough to crack them - the energy from the initial impacts and cracking would raise the temperature and Bob's your Uncle.
« Last Edit: 11/05/2009 17:33:09 by sophiecentaur »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #30 on: 11/05/2009 22:05:24 »
Also there's the fact that gravity isn't a very strong force. 2 small rocks atract eachother so slightly that it's hard to measure but if you have a whole planet's worth of rocks atracting one another it's a different story.
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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« Reply #31 on: 12/05/2009 12:55:44 »
Also there's the fact that gravity isn't a very strong force. 2 small rocks atract eachother so slightly that it's hard to measure but if you have a whole planet's worth of rocks atracting one another it's a different story.
But how did the planet form in the first place!!!!!
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #32 on: 12/05/2009 20:53:02 »
It formed from a whole planets' worth of smaller rocks attracting one another.
What did you think I meant?
 

lyner

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #33 on: 12/05/2009 23:55:37 »
There must be some essential difference between a stable group of asteroids, on  their own established orbits around the Sun and a load of rocks which can form a single mass. There has to be some mechanism to dissipate energy, so that they settle down together in one orbital position. They need to have a relatively high probability of collisions to account for this energy loss.  Would there be a better chance if the rocks were, in fact, dust particles with the same total mass?
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #34 on: 13/05/2009 13:49:09 »
It formed from a whole planets' worth of smaller rocks attracting one another.
What did you think I meant?
lol
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #35 on: 13/05/2009 13:49:40 »
There must be some essential difference between a stable group of asteroids, on  their own established orbits around the Sun and a load of rocks which can form a single mass. There has to be some mechanism to dissipate energy, so that they settle down together in one orbital position. They need to have a relatively high probability of collisions to account for this energy loss.  Would there be a better chance if the rocks were, in fact, dust particles with the same total mass?
That's the first intelligent thing I've heard you say.
 

lyner

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #36 on: 13/05/2009 16:58:38 »
I'm not agreeing with any of YOUR old rubbish though. There is a conventional reason - I suggested it. We don't need to stray into the realms of fantasy yet.
« Last Edit: 13/05/2009 17:23:55 by sophiecentaur »
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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« Reply #37 on: 14/05/2009 14:57:58 »
I'm not agreeing with any of YOUR old rubbish though. There is a conventional reason - I suggested it. We don't need to stray into the realms of fantasy yet.
Where should dust stick together anymore than rocks? I prefer the idea of a seed which stimulates the gravitational process. Similar to the seed needed for the formation of raindrops. http://www.spacedaily.com/news/earth-02z.html
« Last Edit: 14/05/2009 15:52:38 by common_sense_seeker »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #38 on: 14/05/2009 19:42:24 »
The fact that raindrops need a seed is related to surface tension.  Please let us know what the correspondin effect in your idea is.
 

lyner

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #39 on: 18/05/2009 16:44:04 »
Where should dust stick together anymore than rocks?
 The probability of collisions would be higher to start the GPE Loss process. Then, because it can pack more densely and, with smaller spacing, the net pressure would be higher and more thermal energy would reaultand increase the rate of fusing process. Do you have any idea of the actual quantities necessary for this to happen, btw?  A handfull of dust isn't enough! You need enough GPE to convert to internal energy which corresponds to temperatures of tens of kK in the middle.
« Last Edit: 18/05/2009 16:45:59 by sophiecentaur »
 

Offline Ophiolite

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #40 on: 21/05/2009 12:29:31 »
The notion of rocks coalescing in space to form planets is very contentious.
It isn't. It is an accepted mechanism for terrestrial planet formation.
Where are your links to the references which make this claim? (the claim that rocks stick together to form planetesimals)
Goldreich, Peter; Ward, William R. The Formation of Planetesimals, Astrophysical Journal, Vol. 183, pp. 1051-1062 (1973)
Johansen, Anders et al, Rapid planetesimal formation in turbulent circumstellar disks, Nature, Volume 448, Issue 7157, pp. 1022-1025 (2007).
Youdin, Andrew N.; Shu, Frank H., Planetesimal Formation by Gravitational InstabilityThe Astrophysical Journal, Volume 580, Issue 1, pp. 494-505.

I can provide further references, running into the hundreds, that all say essentially the same thing. There is certainly dispute over some of the details, but the broad acceptance of the principle has not received any significant challenge. (Indeed I am unaware of any challenge,  but stand ready to be corrected by citations you may provide.)

Sophie Centaur, I am probably misreading your last post. You say "You need enough GPE to convert to internal energy which corresponds to temperatures of tens of kK in the middle."
You seem to be suggesting that for fusing (which I take to mean melting and not fusion, since the latter has not been discussed at all)to occur you need temperatures of 20,000 Kelvins, or more. I presume I am misreading you, since a dry basalt melt is less than 1,000 degrees Celsius and even a picrite melt should be less than 1500 degrees.
 

lyner

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #41 on: 21/05/2009 14:12:53 »
I was being a bit off the cuff in my temperature estimation  but, I was really implying that you need a lot of actual energy - not just at the centre but over most of the volume of the planet whilst forming.  Without an excess of energy, I don't reckon the process would get established In any case, my main point was that there is a 'critical mass', below which a load of material would be just as likely to break up again into smaller bits as a result of another impact.

My main issue is with the mysticists who, without examining  (or understanding, often) the conventional explanations  for these phenomena, insist that there must be something else at work which lies outside our present understanding. What sort of Science is that? A separate rule for every new thing we observe, in an attempt to understand the Universe? It wouldn't be worth even starting to try.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #42 on: 21/05/2009 19:34:27 »
A big enough plannet containing enough Th or U will generate enough heat by nulear decay to melt the core.
Anyway CSS's position is just plain silly.
 

Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #43 on: 21/05/2009 20:28:57 »
The heat source for melting the core comes not only from Th an U, but from short lived isotopes in particular of Al. Most of the heat comes from impact energy during planetary formation.
 

Offline common_sense_seeker

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« Reply #44 on: 22/05/2009 10:41:02 »
I was being a bit off the cuff in my temperature estimation  but, I was really implying that you need a lot of actual energy - not just at the centre but over most of the volume of the planet whilst forming.  Without an excess of energy, I don't reckon the process would get established In any case, my main point was that there is a 'critical mass', below which a load of material would be just as likely to break up again into smaller bits as a result of another impact.

My main issue is with the mysticists who, without examining  (or understanding, often) the conventional explanations  for these phenomena, insist that there must be something else at work which lies outside our present understanding. What sort of Science is that? A separate rule for every new thing we observe, in an attempt to understand the Universe? It wouldn't be worth even starting to try.
You've just stated that there is a good reason to consider the possibility of a super-dense inner core or seed which is necessary to start the planet-forming process! The current theory is unable to support a quantum theory of gravity. This is a very good reason to re-think the whole fundamentals of which our science is based upon. The concept of an super-dense innermost core also has the potential to simulaneously solve the 'ice age problem'. It requires will power and lateral thinking. If you're a teacher of the standard syllabus, then you are unlikely to respond to this way of thinking (which is ok with me).
 

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Could Earth's Inner Core Be Doughnut Shaped?
« Reply #44 on: 22/05/2009 10:41:02 »

 

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