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Author Topic: Did the Catholic Church execute people for suggesting Earth orbits the Sun?  (Read 36208 times)

Offline roscoe

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My apologies if it was not clear enough. The point on Bruno is that he was executed for other reasons than saying Earth/ Sun.

This may help== Card Bellarmine "If Copernicanism were verified( which only 1 part has ever been), it would be necessary to use careful consideration in explaining the Scriptures that seem contrary and we should rather have to say that we do not understand them than to say something is false which has been proven".
« Last Edit: 27/04/2009 04:27:05 by roscoe »
 

Offline RD

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Roscoe you are apparently trying to defend an organisation which attempted to suppress scientific debate in a forum designed to promote it: that's an exercise in futility.

BTW how about this for a reason to have someone barbecued, bad weather …

Quote
In Denmark, the burning of witches increased following the reformation of 1536. Especially Christian IV of Denmark encouraged this practice, which eventually resulted in hundreds of people burned because of convictions of witchcraft. This special interest of the king also resulted in the North Berwick witch trials, which saw over seventy people accused of witchcraft in Scotland on account of bad weather when James I of England, who shared the Danish king's interest in witch trials, in 1590 sailed to Denmark to meet his betrothed Anne of Denmark.

Current scholarly estimates of the number of people executed for witchcraft vary between about 40,000 and 100,000. The total number of witch trials in Europe which are known for certain to have ended in executions is around 12,000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Early_Modern_Europe
 

Offline JimBob

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My Lord! A Cardinal of the 16th century used a scientific reference. Bellarmine lived in the mid 1500's, 150 years BEFORE Isaac Newton. This is abhorrent to any person who thinks and does not blindly follow the lead of Neo-Scholasticism. (This is the theology espousing the believe that the Catholic Church should return to the days of Thomas Aquinas in its theology and church laws.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-scholasticism

This is akin to saying that society should again be ruled solely by kings and queens, disputes should be settled by might and the punishment for stealing a loaf of bread should be death!

I refuse to take further part in this farce.

 

Offline roscoe

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For the benefit of the prev poster, it should be noted that the Jesuits( such as Bellarmine)reputation as the worlds finest scientists has been established for centuries. Sorry if you hadn't heard. Card Bellarmine dies in 1621 and Newton in 1727-- 100 yrs difference would be more accurate whatever you are trying to say. The world of Louis XVI was certainly not the Babylonian World of the Present Age. I of course have no problems with St Thomas and I would advise both of the prev posters that there thinking seems to be formed by an org hostile to the Cath Church-- Wikipedia

Wasn't there someone a while back who pondered that there was no hostility to the Catholic Church here? With a science site, it goes with the territory.
« Last Edit: 27/04/2009 05:38:06 by roscoe »
 

Offline JimBob

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I can't resist - It isn't Wikipedia that is hostile, no one is hostile. It is just that you logic defies reason and relies on solely on belief. Neither Aquinas nor Bellarmine (who dies about 20 years before Galileo dies) had all the data or tools we have to understand our surroundings.

Aristotle believe the earth was flat. So the picture below is fake.







José G. Funes, S.J., Director of The Vatican Observatory, doesn't think so. Who gave you more information than this Jesuit, a renowned scientist?

Wikipedia wasn't around when i was born in 1944. It never shaped my thinking. Study of science in college and religious and spiritual studies that continue to this day forme and still form my thinking. And I am amazed and astonished every time I run across someone who believes 'thought' is a fixed, static think. That has never been the cast, never will be.

The church of Aquinas bears very little resemblance to the early church if Irenaeus. It changed though time. Change is not a bad thing. but to freeze change at a given time is arbitrary.

And this subject is NOT science, it is theology. I will move it to chat.
« Last Edit: 27/04/2009 06:24:26 by JimBob »
 

Offline roscoe

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That St's Thomas or Robert didn't have the data that we have today is exactly the point. TPI that the Church knew to reject Copernicanism b4 there was any scientific proof. I highly doubt that Aristotle thought the Earth flat: he did think the Sun to rev around Earth-- no one gets everything right. As far as this discussion turning to theology, there is about as much chance of seperating science from religion as politics from religion--  none.
« Last Edit: 27/04/2009 07:28:24 by roscoe »
 

Offline Don_1

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..... the Church knew to reject Copernicanism b4 there was any scientific proof.

The Vatican rejected Copernicanism, because it threatened to undermine the church's authority.

Similarly, you reject all evidence which does not fit in with your ideal. It is pointless to continue this discussion.

Don-- I knew the hostitlity was here and the above post shows it. I will do my best to refute the above in due time.

The only hostility here seems to be coming from your direction. Hostility toward fact and substantiated evidence.

People like you do more damage to the Catholic Church and Christianity than any science. Simply rejecting anything which you do not like, fails to support the your interpretation of the church's ideology, or calls into question the Vatican's stance & authority and biblical accounts does fool anyone anymore. People are too well educated to cringe and cowl down at the 'fire and brimstone' approach. Wake up to the modern world.

I will add no more to this thread.
 

Variola

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Don wrote

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Presumably you and the Pope eh!!! The rest of the world's population are dumb! I do not care much for the 'holier than thou' attitude.

The Catholic Church will only let a pope stay if he tows the line!!! Pope John Paul 1,  Albino Luciano died at the hands of his cardinals because he did not tow the line.
I am stunned that given the countless wrongs the Catholic church have been responsiblefor in the past, that someone should try and quibble over one small point in order to try and defend the religious hypocrisy that is the Catholic Church. I notice at one point the poster is trying to say its an important point because it goes against certain scriptures, and as BoredChemist rightly points it out, in essence it doesn't matter why the Catholic Church persecuted and murdered, the very fact that they did it goes against their teachings and makes them indefensible.
I find it laughable that anyone who tries to defend the Catholic Church would then bemoan that a forum, or person, or website is hostile!!!
« Last Edit: 27/04/2009 10:20:18 by Variola »
 

Offline BenV

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As far as this discussion turning to theology, there is about as much chance of seperating science from religion as politics from religion--  none.
I disagree.  Science is pragmatic, while religion is dogmatic - it seems that only the religious find it difficult to separate the two.
 

Variola

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I disagree.  Science is pragmatic, while religion is dogmatic - it seems that only the religious find it difficult to separate the two

Religion is just a human excuse to be extremely crappy towards each other. The same applies for other blind beliefs. Science is seen as being opposed to religion,to be impartial and without bias, but when you look at things like eugenics you can see how( bad) science was used and abused to support such beliefs. If you view, as I do, that religion is a set of beliefs and doctrines that are universally supported by a number of people, then you can see that science isn't all that different. It's when religion is seen as a belief in the intangible supernatural, and that belief isn't validated by evidence,that science and religion differ entirely.
Either way bother can be used to support or demolish other beliefs, systems and, sadly, other people
 

Offline iko

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Religion is just a human excuse to be extremely crappy towards each other. The same applies for other blind beliefs.
 Science is seen as being opposed to religion,to be impartial and without bias, but when you look at things like eugenics you can see how( bad) science was used and abused to support such beliefs. If you view, as I do, that religion is a set of beliefs and doctrines that are universally supported by a number of people, then you can see that science isn't all that different. It's when religion is seen as a belief in the intangible supernatural, and that belief isn't validated by evidence,that science and religion differ entirely.
Either way bother can be used to support or demolish other beliefs, systems and, sadly, other people

I agree 100%.
Thank you for writing this so sharp and clear!
« Last Edit: 27/04/2009 20:10:35 by iko »
 

Variola

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Religion is just a human excuse to be extremely crappy towards each other. The same applies for other blind beliefs.
 Science is seen as being opposed to religion,to be impartial and without bias, but when you look at things like eugenics you can see how( bad) science was used and abused to support such beliefs. If you view, as I do, that religion is a set of beliefs and doctrines that are universally supported by a number of people, then you can see that science isn't all that different. It's when religion is seen as a belief in the intangible supernatural, and that belief isn't validated by evidence,that science and religion differ entirely.
Either way bother can be used to support or demolish other beliefs, systems and, sadly, other people

I agree 100%.
Thank you for writing this so sharp and clear!

You are welcome, and thanks! Its just nice to know someone is on my wavelength :D
 

Offline JimBob

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I would still like to know the answer to the question "José G. Funes, S.J., Director of The Vatican Observatory, doesn't think so. Who gave you more information than this Jesuit, a renowned scientist?"

If the Jesuits are the authority, why doesn't this ones opinions count?

(I know what you are going to say so there is no need to answer that, rosco. You will say that since 1962 there has been a conspiracy in the Catholic Church against the TRUE FAITH.)

How boring - we didn't set off the first atomic bomb, either, I guess.
 

Offline MonikaS

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I sense a "Not A True Scotsman" Fallacy coming up.
 

Offline roscoe

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JB-- could you clarify what you are asking re: Funes. And Aristotle did not believe the Earth to be flat. This is a phony trick more worthy of a Shyster Lawyer than a scientist.
 

Offline roscoe

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Aristotle was wrong when he thought the Sun to rev around Earth.
 

Offline roscoe

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Is that what people on this site believe?--- that Aristotle thought the Earth flat. One would think there to be a little higher level of education here. And I continue to object to the name of my post being changed--implying that there is a question as to whether the Cath Church executed anyone for alleging Earth/Sun. No one will ever provide a name because there isn't one. Additionally, no one has ever even been ex-communicated for alleging such. Please provide name if one wants to show me incorrect.
 

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