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Author Topic: Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?  (Read 58638 times)

Offline Henry Pool

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #25 on: 29/04/2009 07:52:10 »
look folks, with all due respect, I don't have the facility to download millions of bytes here. I did do some research and got stuck with radiative forcing. I don't know how they measure it. (Dimensions: W/m2 for a gas?)
The question I asked was simple. Why do we blame CO2? Most chemists here agree that the difference between CO2 and the other natural gases is that it absorbs in the IR region. But that must also mean that it blocks IR coming in. (similar to ozone blocking UV). O then said that much more shorter radiation passes through to earth which is reflected (by the earth) as IR, meaning the net effect is much more entrapment. I then said: good,show me the proof. Ben and the others believe that there is no blocking of IR by CO2. (so no cooling effect, only warming). But no proof. I have not seen any test results or formula's from the scientists who apparently proved that CO2 acts like a blanket.
As to the second part of my question, i.e. what is the influence of varying amounts of CO2 on global warming: I must say that I am disappointed that I did not get any results from anyone and I also could not find any results myself. One would have thought that the big stake holders (like fuel companies) would have done extensive research on this aspect of their product, i.e. to make accurate predictions as to where we are going with this.
Don't you people think that is disgusting?
 

Online Bored chemist

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #26 on: 29/04/2009 08:00:28 »
Why are you ignoring the biggest ever experiment on this question?
 

Offline Henry Pool

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #27 on: 29/04/2009 08:17:49 »
Dear BC. As I said before, unless and until I am myself convinced that the problem really is CO2, I have to go with the theory that I can believe in.

You don't know how much energy has gone into earth by all the fires and wars and burning and transport caused by human activity. So you cannot prove that my theory is wrong.

If it is your belief that the problem is CO2, then why not tell me what experimental proof you have for that belief, other than saying: see it is there, so it must be true? 
 

Offline BenV

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #28 on: 29/04/2009 09:06:08 »
Henry - please pay more attention to what people say.

When you talk about co2 'blocking' IR - what do you mean?  Do you think it magically dissipates the IR?  We know from experimental evidence that co2 absorbs IR.  You are quite correct to assume that this means less IR will hit the ground.  You seem to be ignoring the fact that this IR is absorbed in the atmosphere - thus making it warmer.

We are also aware, from experimental evidence (the spectra that falls on the moon for example) that the earth emits more IR than first falls on it, for reasons that Bored Chemist explained earlier.

So the evidence is there - in the absorbtion spectra of CO2, the emission spectra of the earth...

No-one here has the time to collate all of the facts and figures for you - that's your responsibility.
 

Offline dentstudent

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #29 on: 29/04/2009 09:06:44 »
Today's logical fallacy is the argument from personal incredulity.
 

Offline Henry Pool

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #30 on: 29/04/2009 10:01:24 »
If you people think the questions are answered, fine. I don't. I am not even convinced CO2 is a contributary factor to the problem. I actually hoped to see some facts and figures. I thought someone would be able to convince me with data from actual experiments. I could not find such.
 

Offline dentstudent

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #31 on: 29/04/2009 10:10:54 »
Henry - It is your burden of proof to show that CO2 is NOT a GHG, since the worldwide scientific consensus is that it is. Until that happens, I would say that you are on your own.
 

Offline Henry Pool

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #32 on: 29/04/2009 10:42:43 »
When this discussion started a couple of decades ago, I remember thinking that I hoped that someone would think of some way of testing the influence of the various gaseous compounds on heat retention. It seems to me that that very thing that I had been thinking has not really happened. I cannot believe in what I cannot verify. If I am the only dissenting scientist, fine. It does not bother me. That has happened before, and sometimes I was proven right.   
 

Offline BenV

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #33 on: 29/04/2009 10:45:02 »
If you people think the questions are answered, fine. I don't. I am not even convinced CO2 is a contributary factor to the problem. I actually hoped to see some facts and figures. I thought someone would be able to convince me with data from actual experiments. I could not find such.
Start with wikipedia Henry - the facts and figures are there.

Stop coming here to lie about the missing data, when you just haven't bothered looking.

By the way, the first experiments into this are well over 100 years old.
 

Offline Henry Pool

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #34 on: 29/04/2009 11:52:39 »
I am sorry, but I did look in wikipedia and could not find any data. Is all about the people in the past who have said something on it. But no formulas and no test results. In any case, as to the second part of my question - can I ask you your personal opinion? Supposing that this question of mine had been properly researched and supposing that they had found no difference in heat retention in between 350 and 700 ppm CO2, (in other words: maybe there is some sort of a saturation point in heat retention), don't you think that would change the whole warming debate completely? In what way?
 

Offline dentstudent

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #35 on: 29/04/2009 12:07:56 »
Don't just stop with Wikipedia - it's usually a good place to start, but have a go through this site. It lists many journals in which you will find ones that are specifically atmospheric oriented. Then go through the articles.

http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/journal_browse.cws_home

Can I just say that you state that you are a scientist, and yet the approach that you are taking appears to be anything but. Surely you must be aware of how to properly research something?

 

Offline Henry Pool

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #36 on: 29/04/2009 12:32:39 »
I am too old now. That is true. So I am trailing behind, with technology getting faster ahead of me. But you can do it for me? I will kiss you if you find some test results from actual experiments and tests/
 

Offline dentstudent

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #37 on: 29/04/2009 12:42:36 »
I am too old now. That is true. So I am trailing behind, with technology getting faster ahead of me. But you can do it for me? I will kiss you if you find some test results from actual experiments and tests/

Hmm, tempting, but no thanks.
 

Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #38 on: 29/04/2009 19:48:54 »
You also couldn't find any data from actual experiments?
 

Online Bored chemist

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #39 on: 29/04/2009 19:55:15 »
Dear BC. As I said before, unless and until I am myself convinced that the problem really is CO2, I have to go with the theory that I can believe in.

You don't know how much energy has gone into earth by all the fires and wars and burning and transport caused by human activity. So you cannot prove that my theory is wrong.

If it is your belief that the problem is CO2, then why not tell me what experimental proof you have for that belief, other than saying: see it is there, so it must be true? 

OK
If you have to go with a theory you can believe in that's fine, but it's nothing to do with science and you are, therefore, posting on the wrong website.

I can calculate the energy released by all the fires wars and so on. I can do this because practically all of that energy is derived from the combustion of fossil fuels which add CO2 to the atmosphere. Since I know how much CO2 is being added I can calculate the energy release (actually, it's a bit more complicated than that because the plants pick up some of the CO2 released but there's a way round that. It involves the relative amount of radiocarbon in the air and it's well off topic)
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Unless you genuinely believe that we are each and every one of us responsible for wasting some sizable fraction of 20 million watts then you are talking nonsense as I have already repeatedly pointed out, and you have repeatedly ignored.
I have proved your theory wrong; you just didn't understand the proof.

I have shown that a greenhouse which has walls that are transparent to visible light, but opaque to IR works- it gets hotter inside.
I have personally measured the IR absorbtion of CO2. I hardly need to point out that CO2 is transparent to visible light.

I have, therfore made measurements of a model system and shown that the greenhouse effect works. I have shown that, like the glass in a greenhouse, the CO2 absorbs IR.
What more proof do you want>

Just in case this helps convince you, we have a gadget at work called a photoacustic IR spectrometer. We use it to measure the concentration of gases.
It works by shining a beam of IR into a gas mixture and observing the rise in temperature.

You are the one making extraordinary claims; start proiducing the extraordinary evidence that you need before anyone will take you seriously.


 

Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #40 on: 29/04/2009 21:26:10 »
You keep approaching this problem from the same angle, I can see
1) you have not done that calculation
2) actual energy reaching earth by the sun is much lower then you were claiming
3) what about all the atomic bombs that were exploded mostly for 'testing"
how much energy was that?
3)what about all the nuclear plants, how much energy was that?
etc/etc/etc
You see what the problem is? You cannot prove my theory wrong because I know that I am right, the only thing I don't know (yet)is the percentage that energies from human activities are contributing to the warming up.
 
The thing that I am looking for is to find some data from experimental tests that would tell me how much the influence of various amounts of CO2 is on the warming up of the earth.

If somehow you don't understand or you don't want to understand the importance of that information for the future of mankind, then maybe it is you who should take a hike. 
 

Offline BenV

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #41 on: 29/04/2009 22:03:25 »
You keep approaching this problem from the same angle, I can see
1) you have not done that calculation
2) actual energy reaching earth by the sun is much lower then you were claiming
3) what about all the atomic bombs that were exploded mostly for 'testing"
how much energy was that?
3)what about all the nuclear plants, how much energy was that?
etc/etc/etc
You see what the problem is? You cannot prove my theory wrong because I know that I am right, the only thing I don't know (yet)is the percentage that energies from human activities are contributing to the warming up.
 
The thing that I am looking for is to find some data from experimental tests that would tell me how much the influence of various amounts of CO2 is on the warming up of the earth.

If somehow you don't understand or you don't want to understand the importance of that information for the future of mankind, then maybe it is you who should take a hike. 
But Henry, with your idea the following applies:
1) you have not done that calculation
2) You do not know how much energy reaches the earth from the sun, and seem to ignore that fact that energy absorbed in the atmosphere contributes to the temperature of the earth
3) You do not know how much energy was supplied by "all the atomic bombs that were exploded mostly for 'testing""
3(sic))You do not know "about all the nuclear plants"etc/etc/etc

And yet you firmly believe you are right.    You have no right to make this assertation.

You also have no right to claim that people who do not have the time or inclination to spend time researching a topic for someone who
a) cannot be bothered to do their own research
b) ignore the advise of those trying to help
c) have made it quite clear that they will not accept any evidence anyway
...cannot find the data.  It's not up to dentstudent, it's up to you.

Please be advised that this sort of behaviour isn't really acceptable on this forum.
 

Online Bored chemist

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #42 on: 29/04/2009 22:31:28 »
As I said.
I have proved your theory wrong; you just didn't understand the proof.
I grant you I haven't done that calculation.
But I can show that someone else has.
There's some data about it here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_energy
It shows that primary energy production (500EJ)is about a ten thousandth of the energy we get from the sun (4,0000,00 EJ).
You can also find data on nuclear energy on WIKI.
"As of 2005, nuclear power provided 2.1% of the world's energy"
Now you know why I ignored it.

The bombs have yields measured in kilotons or megatons. A ton of TNT produces a lot less energy than a ton of coal.
How long does it take for the world to burn a megaton of coal?
Well, looking at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal
its a matter of hours. (total use is 6195.1 million tons per year 17 million tons a day.)
Unless we set off a megaton nuke every hour the energy released won't be comparable with the energy released by burning coal.
It's even less significant than nuclear power.


I do indeed see what the problem is. You don't know what you are talking about.
Unless I dig up every possible number you might ever ask for, you are not going to believe me (and even then you still might not).
That's really not my fault, it's because you don't understand the nature of science. Also, you steadfastly refuse to accept the evidence I offer and simply pretend it doesn't exist. You can't say that you just don't believe it; you need to show some sort of evidence.


"If somehow you don't understand or you don't want to understand the importance of that information for the future of mankind, then maybe it is you who should take a hike.  "
I have repeatedly shown you the information; you just cannot or will not understand it.
 

Offline Henry Pool

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #43 on: 30/04/2009 07:38:27 »
You are not going to be able to prove that my theory is wrong. Because you do not know the sum total of all energies that have gone up in the earth and sky by human activities. (think of all the rockets that have gone up in the sky, how much energy was that?)
But I think you guys keep coming at this from the wrong angle. If the CO2 has increased by 25% over the past 50 years, (adding only 70 ppms of CO2 to the atmosphere), then the first obvious question that comes to my mind is: how much does that difference make on the greenhouse effect that you say must exist? So, is there no one who looked into that question? You mean to tell me that none of the big fuel companies thought that this would become an important question related to their products?
 

Online Bored chemist

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #44 on: 30/04/2009 07:58:34 »
" (think of all the rockets that have gone up in the sky, how much energy was that?)".
The biggest of them IIRC had roughly a thrid of the energy of the Hiroshima bomb.
So again, they are not relevane.

The other question has been asked; and answered.
If you were less lazy you could look that up too.
 

Offline Henry Pool

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #45 on: 30/04/2009 08:57:15 »
I did not see the answer to my question as to how much the influence is on the greehouse effect of the various amounts of CO2....I missed it?
Perhaps we must pose this question to the fuel companies. 
 

Offline dentstudent

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #46 on: 30/04/2009 08:57:43 »
I think that this is another thread that isn't going to lead to anything useful. If one side of an argument resolutely refuses to listen to evidence, then it is neither scientific nor useful. Also "You are not going to be able to prove that my theory is wrong" implies that the hypothesis (not theory) is not falsifiable, and therefore falls outside of the scientific realm.
 

Offline Henry Pool

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #47 on: 30/04/2009 09:07:30 »

Anyone who can think knows that if you put the kettle on, the water will get warmer. I just don't know yet how much energy caused by human activity contributes to global warming. Maybe it is not a lot. But it must be  something. How can you say that this line of thinking is not scientific?  Who knows, maybe one day we will find out that Henry's theory may have more bearing on global warming then we think. But we first need to find the data from the tests on heat retention.Did you find anything?
 

Offline dentstudent

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #48 on: 30/04/2009 09:45:24 »
"But we first need to find the data from the tests on heat retention"

But YOU first need to find the data from the tests on heat retention.


"Did you find anything?"

Personally, no. Because I'm not looking for it. It's your pet. You look after it.
 

Offline Henry Pool

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #49 on: 30/04/2009 13:36:28 »
Pity. There is no data relating to any specific tests or experiments.
 
Please note that when I look at a problem I always keep my mind open as to what the final solution will be to that problem. Conventional wisdom is often suspect. Sometimes the solution comes from a corner where you had never expected to find it. How is this for a theory: maybe in the time when they still thought that it was "safe" to detonate atomic bombs, as long as it was deep down below, they triggered some major upheaval in the earth's crust. This caused earth quakes (Tsunami) and now heat from the core is leaking into the oceans. What do you think of that theory?
Anyway, just speculating.

What we have to do is quite simple. We have to go to all the fuel companies. We have to say to them: look , this is your product. It has caused an increase of 70 ppm during in CO2 in the atmosphere during the past 50 years. This is our earth. Have you done any studies that relate to heat retention caused by varying amounts of CO2 in the air at differing atmospheric conditions. Perhaps they have done something on this.I doubt it. Eitherway, it is not too late. It should not be too difficult to try and devise some specific tests and experiments that give repeatable results on heat retention of various heat sources and various air compositions..       

I leave it all up to you.
 

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
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