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Offline cridings

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The Trees are Dying
« on: 07/07/2005 17:37:43 »
I have a coworker that has a theory about why the trees are dying.  He says the trees are dying everywhere.  He says that a blind man could see what was happening.  Through observation he says the trees are taking on too much water causing the bark to expand at a rapid rate, thus killing the tree. I have argued that transpiration keeps the tree from taking on too much water and he came back with, what about osmosis and capillary action.  He offers no real proof to his claims.  I have found nothing to support his claim, but I also do not know how to prove it wrong.  Help me end this crazy rant.



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Offline neilep

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Re: The Trees are Dying
« Reply #1 on: 07/07/2005 18:15:10 »
Hi Cridings, thanks for your question.....I'm not an expert here, but why would a tree take on more water than it needs anyway ?.....I know there is a very healthy tree related thread on this site and I gather you may have posted your query there too.....but if we could find out why they are taking too much water, then perhaps we could save them.

Lets hope a passing tree-drinking expert answers.

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Offline VAlibrarian

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Re: The Trees are Dying
« Reply #2 on: 09/07/2005 02:24:35 »
Neilep has a point. It is a common sense answer, not a technical tree expert answer, but a good one. We have had trees for many millions of years, and they have always been able to regulate their intake of water properly. What could have happened to change this? Is there evidence to support the theory? No, there is none I am aware of. But there is plenty of evidence that trees in certain areas such as Germany and the northeastern U.S. in high elevations are stressed from acid rain from coal fired electrical plants. Follow the evidence where it leads you- do not make up facts to fit a theory that you invent.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: The Trees are Dying
« Reply #3 on: 10/07/2005 08:17:47 »

I don’t think he is making up facts. I have no reason to disbelieve that trees can be stressed due to high humidity and excessive rainfall.

Transpiration can be shut down in high humidity, every text book on water movement in plant and trees states this. Once transpiration ceases, the uptake of water is also compromised, but not necessarily halted! Solutes, still generate a flow and return system and this could be responsible for increasing the positive pressure beneath the bark. The question therefore is, how high is the humidity of the air surrounding the trees and how much extra rainfall has been recorded in the area.

Another possibility is that the roots of the tree have become rotten. If this has happened, then most of the tree will become starved of water, and this can causes the bark to crack as the water rapidly evaporates under dryer conditions and the roots are reduced in volume and are unable to cope with demand from the leaves. It should be easy to expose a root to see if they have become stressed, this at least should rule out this point.

Acid rain, increases the density of the ground water by affording more minerals salts to be dissolved from the soil. According to my theory, increasing the density of ground water above that of the falling sap in the phloem, will inevitably slow down, halt, or even reverse the circulation inside the tree. This can be shown experimentally in a simple tubular model, mentioned in the thread titled “How do trees really lift water to their leaves”

Could you send me a photograph of the trees and surrounding area?

Andrew
quote:
Originally posted by VAlibrarian

Neilep has a point. It is a common sense answer, not a technical tree expert answer, but a good one. We have had trees for many millions of years, and they have always been able to regulate their intake of water properly. What could have happened to change this? Is there evidence to support the theory? No, there is none I am aware of. But there is plenty of evidence that trees in certain areas such as Germany and the northeastern U.S. in high elevations are stressed from acid rain from coal fired electrical plants. Follow the evidence where it leads you- do not make up facts to fit a theory that you invent.

chris wiegard



"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
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Offline chrisp

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Re: The Trees are Dying
« Reply #4 on: 16/07/2005 21:44:06 »
I'm afraid the trees are dying because of the use of so called mycoherbicides.These are fungal diseases concentrated then sprayed on to target plants.Unfortunately little is known about the diseases
used and at least one Phytophthora Palmivora hybridises to attack just about anything with bark.It has been used in a product called Devine,developed for use in citrus orchards.I have seen documents avilable on the web where Canadian scientists are developing (or have developed?)a fungal disease that will kill just about anything except conifers.Unbelievable eh? that educated people would even think of doing that.
The anti-cocaine mycoherbicide used by the USA DEA in South America even seems to attack human skin.Here in the uk it's the same tress dying everywhere and scientists pretending not to notice.
CP.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: The Trees are Dying
« Reply #5 on: 17/07/2005 08:53:23 »
http://www.fcprac.ifas.ufl.edu/citrustopics/pest%20control/Diaprepes/Diaprepes%20Proceedings/graham.larval-feed.htm

Precautionary measures using the herbicides:
http://www.encoretechllc.com/pdf/Devine%20Insert.pdf
Note appears to be for ues in Florida only?????

Label of Herbicide: http://www.encoretechllc.com/pdf/Devine%20Label.pdf

Found the above information on the disease you mention and hope this will be of use.

Has the spore been positively identified in the affected area?

Andrew

quote:
Originally posted by chrisp

I'm afraid the trees are dying because of the use of so called mycoherbicides.These are fungal diseases concentrated then sprayed on to target plants.Unfortunately little is known about the diseases
used and at least one Phytophthora Palmivora hybridises to attack just about anything with bark.It has been used in a product called Devine,developed for use in citrus orchards.I have seen documents avilable on the web where Canadian scientists are developing (or have developed?)a fungal disease that will kill just about anything except conifers.Unbelievable eh? that educated people would even think of doing that.
The anti-cocaine mycoherbicide used by the USA DEA in South America even seems to attack human skin.Here in the uk it's the same tress dying everywhere and scientists pretending not to notice.
CP.




"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
« Last Edit: 17/07/2005 09:16:07 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

Offline chrisp

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Re: The Trees are Dying
« Reply #6 on: 24/07/2005 13:12:28 »
Hullo,
I've been working away from home so I've not been online for a while.

For years DeVine has been sprayed around U.S. citrus groves.DeVine is simply  a spray of a super-concentrated disease called Phytophthora palmivora.There are lots of citrus groves in California.Trees start dying in California and (surprise surprise) it is a Phytophthora that is the cause.Admittedly it is Phytophthora ramorum but little is known of Phytophthora (only that it can hybridise easily to attack other tree species !!).Phytophthora attacks the root systems of trees and gives the effects that are all too apparent.1+1=2 and I've only got my school biology! The thing that's really puzzling is what the academics hope to gain from pretending nothing is happening.
 

Offline cridings

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Re: The Trees are Dying
« Reply #7 on: 25/07/2005 19:47:22 »
Guys,

Thanks for the replies.  I was gone on vacation so I was not monitoring the replies.  My coworker has not supplied any facts or pictures like you are asking.  He simply says look at the trees.  I agree that there is a problem, just a different cause than he is trying to state.

Chris

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Offline chrisp

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Re: The Trees are Dying
« Reply #8 on: 26/07/2005 18:04:07 »
I think your work colleague is correct.I've pointing out that trees
are dying over here in the UK too but people don't notice.They are also dying in S.Africa and I have noticed in Uzbekistan and S.America
- all places that Mycoherbicides have been used.They are also dying in
several other European countries (Spain for one) but I don't know if they have been used or tested there.
CP.
 

Offline chrisp

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The Trees are Dying
« Reply #9 on: 17/09/2007 14:26:38 »
Hi All
I never did reply to Andrew K Fletcher. Been hoping I was wrong and things may get better – but they are getting a lot worse. The state of trees and shrubs is now so depressing I don’t go for walks anymore .

The document Andrew refers to is now unavailable and was issued by Abbot Laboratories of Illinois. It did infer that Devine was only for use in Florida. However  newbielink:http://cipm.ncsu.edu/cropprofiles/docs/LAcitrus.html [nonactive] shows it may have been used more widely. It’s not just Devine. Mycoherbicides (now also known under the euphemism bioherbicides) have been developed and used all over the world now  - see

newbielink:http://www.dropdata.net/download/L9_Herbicides.PDF [nonactive]   and  newbielink:http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12717324.600-weeding-with-fungi-just-as-fungal-diseases-can-devastate-acrop-so-too-can-they-destroy-weeds-a-herbicide-made-from-fungi-could-bethe-ideal-means-of-weed-control-.html [nonactive] 

 What I’m trying to say is that the Academics  don’t know how virulent or pure their preparations are. They are manufacturing diseases in novel concentrations (and are they being checked  for other microbes)? A little bit of sloppy research and wham-bam you’ve got a nice little academic money-spinner ( could this account for the deathly silence of environmental scientists). Just how sloppy the research has been and how dangerous the practices have been can be seen at  newbielink:http://www.bspp.org.uk/icpp98/4.6/7S.htm [nonactive] .
Devine is phytophthora palmivora  - ok?
Phytophthora palmivora is now a problem in Florida citrus groves. newbielink:http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/CG009 [nonactive]  - ok?    Does any scientist say “maybe we shouldn’t throw this stuff around” – no.
Could it be because the universities are behind it ?  newbielink:http://www.hos.ufl.edu/jjfnweb/organicnl/Aug03.htm [nonactive]  .

Andrew asked if any spores had been found at sites – is anyone looking?

  Here, in the UK, I myself have seen cherry trees with black liquid pouring from cankers on their trunks as described  for phytophthora ramorum. Ripe fruit and seed pods  hang onto trees instead of dropping and are still there rotting a year later. Many trees no longer drop dead foliage but hang onto it in the manner of a beach  - symptoms that have been described for phytophthora  cinnamomi.

  As for Florida - here (in the UK) we have a nice guy on tv called Bill Oddie. This year he did a nature programme from Florida. He was going around doing his usual wittering - on about the birds and animals (all very nice). However he didn’t seem to notice that half the trees surrounding him were dead or dying. The vegetation was in a terrible state.

 We like to think the Academics know what they are doing. I’m sure ,though, that our government had lots of well qualified advice that it was ok to put cattle on a cannibal diet. And then it was ok to reduce the temperature at which the protein was treated –
the result? – BSE.

 

Offline dkv

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The Trees are Dying
« Reply #10 on: 17/09/2007 15:01:44 »
The trees 0 degree of freedom therefore the TSP predicts close relationships between immediate neighbours ... Cutting a tree in the neighbourhood of another tree brings the general level of Happiness of tress down and therefore suicidal tendencies can increase...
At all those locations I predict that there must have been massive tree cutting.
Am I correct?
 

Offline chrisp

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The Trees are Dying
« Reply #11 on: 17/09/2007 15:13:06 »
No
 

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Offline dkv

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The Trees are Dying
« Reply #12 on: 17/09/2007 16:33:12 »
Shrunk
Quote
But there is plenty of evidence that trees in certain areas such as Germany and the northeastern U.S. in high elevations are stressed from acid rain from coal fired electrical plants. Follow the evidence where it leads you- do not make up facts to fit a theory that you invent.
I just found the above observation.
I think you do not have full information about the health of the forest.
The bacteria to which all these suicides are being attributed to always existed.

Anyways thanks.
 

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The Trees are Dying
« Reply #13 on: 17/09/2007 18:07:21 »
Shrunk
The trees 0 degree of freedom therefore the TSP predicts close relationships between immediate neighbours ... Cutting a tree in the neighbourhood of another tree brings the general level of Happiness of tress down and therefore suicidal tendencies can increase...
At all those locations I predict that there must have been massive tree cutting.
Am I correct?


On the contrary, some tree clearance is necessary in order to make space for other trees.  In all things, you must be aware you cannot have rebirth without there being death.
 

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Offline dkv

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The Trees are Dying
« Reply #14 on: 17/09/2007 19:54:45 »
Shrunk
:-))
if you are planting new trees then it doesnt matter much .. what matters is the age of a tree.
If the tree is old then it will have relationships with other trees in close proximity ... two trees distant apart will not serve the purpose of TSP.
You will ask Why?
Because Trees can not move ..they stand for hundred of years ...
What keeps them happy is close proxmity with other trees. (preferrably of similar type)
This is how collection of trees becomes a forest..
they like to live together ..

 

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The Trees are Dying
« Reply #14 on: 17/09/2007 19:54:45 »

 

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