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Author Topic: 10 commandments? End world hunger?  (Read 14270 times)

Offline simeonie

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10 commandments? End world hunger?
« on: 14/07/2005 19:48:38 »
Hmm a question for you all!

"If everyone in the world tried to follow the 10 commandents and the beatitudes, would world poverty and starvation end?"

This 'debate' is open to anyone of course. If anyone doesn't know the 10 commandments and the beatitudes then tell me.

I would find it better if you based what you are saying on the Bible but also think about it in a logical and wordly way.

Thanks!

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« Last Edit: 14/07/2005 19:49:06 by simeonie »


 

Offline Ultima

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #1 on: 16/07/2005 00:42:47 »
No.

A Nice Poem:

  • Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

  • Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land.

  • Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted.

  • Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.

  • Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

  • Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.

  • Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

  • Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Shame about the relevance to the real world, or lack of any sort of "solution" to world hunger and poverty!
Don't tell me that im wrong and i've misunderstood, because yes you could interpret these words in any number of random well to do ways. That doesnít make them helpful or relevant to anything imho.


  • 1 You shall have no other gods before Me.

  • Ok thanks I think im richer now and certainly don't feel hungry?

  • 2 You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

  • This either means we can't have any sort of commerce or its just not releveant at all again... I would go with the later. If commerce were to break down that too would not benefit anyone.

  • 3 You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.

  • LOL

  • 4 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

  • Nope gunna go mighty hungry and get poorer if you don't work that extra shift on time and a half rate.

  • 5 Honor your father and your mother.

  • Probably should be honour, but I guess the people who make sites about the Ten Commandments don't give much thought to being concise and unambiguous due to the subject matter.

  • 6 You shall not murder.

  • Good call!! I needed to be told not to do that? Still not any richer or fuller. Plus with more mouths to feed the economy and resources are getting mighty stretched.

  • 7 You shall not commit adultery.

  • Ok thanks, I wasnít about to? Yeah I guess there will be a few less children born so Iíll give god this one he might get a few more scraps of bread to the poor this way.

  • 8 You shall not steal.

  • Hmmm if Iím hungry and there is some fatso guzzling more than his fair share would stealing not be a good way to ďredistributeĒ resources to the needy? Nope this one is just counter intuitive, stealing mostly goes from those that do have to those that donít.

  • 9 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

  • No this is not going to help any poor people. In fact poor people make money by suing large corporations.

  • 10 You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

  • Again can only assume the website peeps mean neighbour here? This one finally has some form of relevance. Donít give any thought to relative wealth and you wont think you are poorer than anyone else!!!! Plenty of people in the world who donít even use money they lead pretty fruit full lives in the middle of no where.



This is nothing to do with science?!?
And what you ask is completely irrelevant to the subject matter..!
Stuff from bible stolen from various sites, all rights reserved God.


wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 16/07/2005 00:46:43 by Ultima »
 

Offline GOD

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #2 on: 16/07/2005 03:06:57 »
Ultima ! Excellent post, certainly made me smile ! I can not sue you anyway for quoting the bible because I don't exist, so quote away.  :)

I am GOD..You are Not..I don't exist !!
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #3 on: 16/07/2005 09:08:56 »
Have you read any of the published Dead Sea Scrolls translations? It reveals that the people were in fact of pagan origin, holding in great esteem plants and trees, in fact relating to trees as their brothers.

Also great respect to flowing waters, presumably because they realised the need to conserve water after the rains began to fail. From what I gather, the Earth was their god. Which leaves me to try to begin to understand how such a logical belief has turned into a cult in which people blow each other of the face of the Earth?

The bible in its current format is yet another attempt to control and manipulate the masses. I doubt it bears much resemblance to itís original format if the Dead Sea Scrolls are anything to go by. Read how many of the scrolls have been hidden from the world by the Israeliís

Many More Scrolls Discovered
Then began an archeological search without parallel in religious history. One expedition after another went to the Dead Sea area in search of more scrolls. One team was headed by Millar Burrows, who states in his Dead Sea Scrolls that material sufficient to fill three large volumes was found in a single cave, cave four in which two-thirds was original Essene scripture and the remainder consisted of Jewish canonical books. After these were placed in the Jordanian Museum in Jerusalem, an international team of eight scholars were selected to collect, piece together, and prepare for publication this incomparable treasure of source-material; of these, four were Roman Catholics; three had Protestant affiliations; and only one, John Marco Allegro, was without personal religious commitment. Without much delay, Allegro translated and published everything committed to him, including the delicate Copper Scroll, which listed precious metals and jewels worth millions of dollars secreted somewhere in the desert-where they still remain. However, he published also the material which tells the story of how Jannaeus crucified the rabbis; and after he declared in an interview that the Teacher of Righteousness may have been crucified in 70 or 69 B.C., by the Jewish authorities, he was thereafter denied all access to the Scrolls and was not even permitted to visit the Jordanian Museum in which they were kept. He complained bitterly that after years of delay not one line of the Scrolls, in addition to his, were translated and published; and this in spite of the fact that no less than 400 separate documents had been pieced together by 1965 and could just as easily have been given to the world, as were the four or five published shortly after the -original discovery.
The Future of the Scrolls
What, if anything, the future holds in store in this field beyond what is now occurring, remains of course to be seen. I can think of no possible valid reason why the Scrolls have been withheld now for nearly thirty years. If they could not be prepared for publication in that length of time, would a century or two centuries be enough? It seems to me that unless we can rescue them from their present custody and also achieve a new and different intellectual world climate, there is little hope that anyone now living will ever see any translation of these scrolls.
I consider what has happened and is continuing to occur in the matter of the Scrolls the greatest cover-up of important historical material that has occurred in modern history. The enemies are the special interests and a fierce bigotry that can only continue to persist by ignoring one of the most important questions that have ever faced world-scholarship. I do not expect to see any new developments during my lifetime, and it is one of the great disappointments of my career as a scholar and writer.


http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v03/v03p119_Larson.html


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Offline simeonie

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #4 on: 16/07/2005 10:25:34 »
actually we are told to love our neighbor and yar de yar and in the beatitudes we are to treat them as we would treat ourselves.

If we did that then we would be looking out for other people and not just ourselves and be helping others.

Wouldn't that help?


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Offline simeonie

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #5 on: 16/07/2005 10:27:23 »
oh ye and bye the way i forgot to mention. It is in the "just chat" forum so u can talk about anything here

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Offline Ultima

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #6 on: 16/07/2005 15:25:30 »
Simeonie people don't need to be taught that. It's innate human behaviour, well it is for me and most people I know anyway. Everyone knows when they are doing something wrong or are ignoring something that isnít right.
There is a big difference from knowing and understanding something and acting on it. If everyone recycled more, kept compost heaps, worm farms. Used turf to insulate thier roof, and used micro power generation with solar panels and wind turbines. Grew thier own organic food, or bought local produce. That would solve a lot of problems, and allow poorer countries that can't afford to be that green to use the fossil resources they have, to develop themselves to the point where they can join the rest of us.
We would also have extra produce this way, that we could sell at very low cost to other countries thus lowering world hunger. Another big problem is that a lot of Africa refuse to grow GM crops for food because its more profitable for them to sell "organic" branded products, and if they had any GM crops they couldnít do this. GM plants would solve a lot of problems, infact most of the world would be saved if we ate more mycoprotein from fungi grown in vats. If people stopped eating meat we would greatly cut down on the amount of methane produced from domestic live stock.  
It doesn't take any written words or sermons to accomplish this, every individual just has to make the small decision to act and be greener. Doesn't sound like such a big thing? It's a shame people would rather wait around for enlightenment, or some one to save them from the world they are in right now.
Thats why I resent this kind of "chat" because its completely irrelevant to the issues you are discussing if the bible can teach us about this or that... whatís the point just look around make a decision and ACT!!!! Most religion is about making meek people feel better about the various problems in their lives they feel are out of their personal control, where as all they have to do; IS DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Such examples are praying for someone instead of helping them directlyÖ Having stupid ass arcane rules that mean you canít give blood etc.

Im not saying religion is wrong or that I hate it completely, itís just when people use it in this way to hide from discussing any real issues in a tangible and useful way. Religion gave us organised society and still gives people comfort and a sense of community in an increasingly segregated and unnatural world. In some ways I do envy large organised religions, because you are inherently part of something larger and on a global scaleÖ Shame about all the BS that goes with it.

Whats right is right, real truth is truth and everyone knows it! You don't need an instruction manual for life, and good will to all people!

http://www.pantheism.net/

wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 16/07/2005 15:56:44 by Ultima »
 

Offline simeonie

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #7 on: 16/07/2005 19:33:41 »
well u say that it is an "innate human behaviour" that is a load of rubbish because SO many people only care about themselves and it is sad i know but it is true. If we looked after others more then it would help a lot. If we sold our food to poorer countries for cheaper as well.



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Offline VAlibrarian

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #8 on: 17/07/2005 01:19:52 »
Simeonie, your topic is interesting.
Jesus of Nazareth was a fascinating guy who said alot of brilliant things, if we are to assume that they were written down correctly. To me, the Beatitudes are about good intentions. If you start with good intent, marvelous things are possible, Jesus seems to be saying. But he does not provide a road map of How to Get From Intentions to Results.

To me, good intentions towards the continent of Africa are very needed but not sufficient in themselves to get marvelous results. Do we spend umpty billions each year to make sure that everyone who has HIV gets all the medicine they need to stay alive? That might be good, but economists say that it may be more cost effective to spend money to prevent another 30 million people from getting the disease.
Here's another hard choice: We could feed everyone in Africa just by sending our food to them. But then all their farmers would go out of business and when we stopped sending food everyone would starve to death. Would it make more sense to do what we have so far failed to do- help all the women of Africa to get accesss to the basic medical care and access to contraception that they need to have the number of children they can actually feed?
Let's start with good intent but subject our ideas to cost analysis.  We may be willing to be taxed to save Africa, but many residents of our nations are not so inclined, so money will never be unlimited.

chris wiegard
 

Offline simeonie

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #9 on: 17/07/2005 21:00:56 »
yes fair enough but if everyone cared about others as they care about themselves they wouldn't care about paying the extra taxes to pay for things to help farmers and all the other stuff that needs doing.

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Offline l_kryptonite

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #10 on: 18/07/2005 05:57:41 »
What you seem to be asking for is a universal moral code.  Very tricky, that, given that religion always gets in the way.  Take thousands of years of religious indoctrination out of the equation and you might have a snowball's hope in a volcano.  You're still talking mighty slim chances.
Tell me, why should it be your moral code we ahdhere to?
I am a godless heathen with no morals to speak of.  Did you see my last post?

Another question for you to ponder: Why is adultery bad?


 

Offline Ultima

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #11 on: 18/07/2005 19:28:03 »
simeonie stop worrying about this on a global scale, just do what you can easily with the people around you and encourage others to do the same. If everyone did this it would ultimately have the effect you desire. The thing is to just do it, like Nike always say. kryptonite it depends what level of morals you are looking at. simeonie is talking about level 6 in Kohlberg's stages of moral development. It takes actual self reflection and effort for most people to get that far. The average Joe Public gets stuck somewhere around stage 2/3 area. Some nice tests around to see which level ur at :D. The Bible might get you caught at stage 4 though if you are very orthodox.

Kohlberg's stages defined:
http://www.wcg.org/lit/disc/moraldev.htm <-- This one is good discusses Christianity and divides in society based on moral development. In a good way.
http://moodle.ed.uiuc.edu/wiked/index.php/Moral_Reasoning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development
http://www.xs4all.nl/~maartens/meinadam/kohlberg.htm

Im definately a stage 6er but it sux because it fails all the time :(; and ultimately doesn't work when interacting with other people. Stage 4 and 5 are probably a better reflection of what people are like and act imho. Apart from chavs, townies, doll dossers etc. who are stuck way down in the "child like" stages. I hate them so much! Yes hate is a strong word but they destroy my world view and so deserve my hate... :D

Being moral doesn't make you right though :( thats where Christians get a one up on the rest of us, since they can say "look here at this book its from a super being that says this is right, and justifies my actions". Allthough for me that is way too restrictive and doesn't fit my personal belief; therfore I have to justify my beliefs by my actions and how I think they will effect people. Which for me is a much better way of doing things. Then if lots of people go woah what are you doing there, you can choose to conform if you want to.

wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 18/07/2005 20:40:42 by Ultima »
 

Offline simeonie

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #12 on: 18/07/2005 22:32:47 »
Wow that was a good post. And what you just said answers my original question as "yes"

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Offline Ultima

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #13 on: 19/07/2005 08:48:09 »
[|)] hurrrrr, for you they might help which is good, for me they do the opposite. As I see it I would much prefer someone who has developed the level of moral reasoning where they are thinking of others without the aid of any set of rules or laws, only then will the whole world unite and live happily ever after (thatís why its not going to happen). Life isn't a game where you move the piece along by the instructions, its chaotic harsh and mysterious... and most of all dynamic. The only thing I can imagine thatís good enough to get close to judging and guessing what to do in life, is the human brain; not a book written several thousand years ago by several authors, when life was fairly different.

wOw the world spins?
 

Offline l_kryptonite

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #14 on: 20/07/2005 02:21:36 »
Ultima, you might like to try that again, except this time allow for the fact that I have no education and haven't the faintest clue what you're on about.:D

I was brought up to believe that ethics were personal choices and standards, but morals were ca collective version, heavily overwritten by years of religious indoctrination.
I understand that humanity needs moral codes  because of our inherrantly warlike nature, and herd instinct.  I do not think, however, that morals created thousands of years ago can possibly have current relevance.
Obviously I need to get out a dictionary and read the real definitions, doh.

Does one of those links include a test?  You have made me curiouser and curiouser.
 

Offline Ultima

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #15 on: 02/08/2005 21:38:34 »
l_kryptonite yeah there is a test somewhere on the net, but I don't have a link. One of the links I gave has an example question about Heinz and if he should steal some bread to feed his starving family, or something. I guess the default answer from a strict devout Christian is no since it breaks a commandment. Mine is yes but with restrictions on relative need and loss. If it was a massive corporation or someone with a lot of bread on their hands I wouldnít have a problem if Heinz was stealing just enough so he can live. Everything and one has the right to try and survive.

Link with the example question:
http://moodle.ed.uiuc.edu/wiked/index.php/Moral_Reasoning

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Offline chimera

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #16 on: 03/08/2005 09:17:04 »
From what I read about bodhisattvas, stage 7 would be something like:

A bodhisattva roams the land and chances upon a band of robbers lying in ambush. They do not notice him, and he could stalk away again or choose to despatch them easily from behind.

He despatches them, since he feels no personal satisfaction in doing so, and he knows there is really no such thing as 'chancing' upon them.

Had he missed them by a mile, the problem would not have presented itself, but in this case despite all the buddhist talk about not-acting and non-violence, it is not only permissible, but even sort of required. The 'better' thing to do, anyway.

It's more of an unsolicited cleaning job, but as long as he feels no personal satisfaction from it all, it's ok. Fate has probably put him here to remove an obstacle for someone in the party to be ambushed, but he also knows there's no point in trying to second-guess the All.

I think especially the proscription to get any personal satisfaction from it will be totally puzzling to our 'Christian' do-gooder white knights all slash-happy in their shining armour... :)

Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Hector Louis Berlioz
 

Offline Ultima

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #17 on: 03/08/2005 14:21:17 »
The way I see stage 7 is that it's a fairly nihilistic stance on morality. Where anything goes because it happens, therefore any action is moral and nothing is more right than wrong and it doesn't matter. So if you stumbled on some one being ambushed by "robbers" some one at stage 7 would not help since they would not want to influence whats happening since it must be moral because it is occurring :) *confusing* Or if they were forced to get involved that would be moral also so they would fend off the robbers... You act on whatever action involves the least change from your normal actions and this must be moral. :D erk stage 7 is a bit silly since there needs to be some level of moral standing of your normal actions... so if you were out and about looking for a fight and one stumbled your way, then it's perfectly moral to get involved regardless.

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Offline chimera

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #18 on: 03/08/2005 16:53:19 »
quote:
Originally posted by Ultima

The way I see stage 7 is that it's a fairly nihilistic stance on morality. Where anything goes because it happens, therefore any action is moral and nothing is more right than wrong and it doesn't matter. So if you stumbled on some one being ambushed by "robbers" some one at stage 7 would not help since they would not want to influence whats happening since it must be moral because it is occurring :) *confusing* Or if they were forced to get involved that would be moral also so they would fend off the robbers... You act on whatever action involves the least change from your normal actions and this must be moral. :D erk stage 7 is a bit silly since there needs to be some level of moral standing of your normal actions... so if you were out and about looking for a fight and one stumbled your way, then it's perfectly moral to get involved regardless.

wOw the world spins?



I see your problems, I think. It's a hard one, in these days where moral decisions are whether to call 911 or not.

Try see it this way: the ambush is evil about to take place. There's a difference between stealing a loaf of bread and going out to ambush and rob and conceivably kill people.

The bodisattva is a man who shuns violence, and in most cases would refrain to act where it is not strictly necessary. Here his actions would seem to be out of character, but even a wise bodhisattva must realise at times he's only a simple unwitting pawn in the greater scheme of things, no more than a cog.

Sometimes you must just simply do what's necessary.

In this case it means the robbers have a bad and somewhat shortened day.

The important difference with what you say is about 'looking for it' and fortunately 'stumbling' upon such *ssholes. That's the whole point.

If he'd felt that elated about going to foil their plot, the best thing - damage- controlwise - for him to do would be to walk on, and be diminished. For he would have failed a test there. [Did I really ENJOY the idea of stabbing people in the back just there? Tsk. ]

The whole thing is that it would not be a selfish act, but just a warding off of evil to persons unknown, without praise or honour. They'd never even find out about their good fortune.

Trick is to be able to take the hint and act upon it, seeing to it that no evil, even personal evil, stems from the action itself, but is only averted by it.

Then, and only then, is killing a few robbers by stabbing them in the back or similar, not gratuitous sneaky Murder Most Foul but a Good Act, and more importantly, not detrimental to the 'perpetrator'.

Important to see is that he is not free to choose from an array of actions, and take an arbitrary pick. Once a certain path is chosen, the choices limit themselves, and the 'correct' intention or attitude behind the action is at least as important as the form of action chosen, and must be scrutinised carefully.
« Last Edit: 03/08/2005 17:02:59 by chimera »
 

Offline Darthy Vadar

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #19 on: 03/08/2005 23:27:33 »
Hum, the 10 condiments?  Oh, I'm still thinking food... Sorry, wrong subject!
 

Offline chimera

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #20 on: 04/08/2005 06:14:24 »
quote:
Originally posted by Darthy Vadar

Hum, the 10 condiments?  Oh, I'm still thinking food... Sorry, wrong subject!



s'OK, after all, Jesus died for our Salivation.
 

Offline simeonie

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #21 on: 04/08/2005 23:17:26 »
Chimera are u a christian?

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Offline Ultima

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #22 on: 04/08/2005 23:32:59 »
quote:
s'OK, after all, Jesus died for our Salivation.


If you are serious that is loltastic! If you aren't... good example of where religion is full of hate and guilt!

wOw the world spins?
 

Offline chimera

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #23 on: 05/08/2005 11:41:52 »
Simeonie: before I answer that, do you think Jesus would convert to modern Christianity (he was a Jew, remember)?

Ultima: old Jewish saying goes 'the only lesson learnt well is the one taught with humour'. They knew deep truth and the initial confusion of humour go hand in hand in learning.

Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Hector Louis Berlioz
 

Offline simeonie

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #24 on: 05/08/2005 13:11:46 »
He was a Jew yes but the Jewish religeon has changed immensly and what the Bible and Jesus teach's is Christian. I myself am a born again Christian, I follow or at least try to follow 100% what the Bible says. But hey that is just me

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Re: 10 commandments? End world hunger?
« Reply #24 on: 05/08/2005 13:11:46 »

 

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