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Offline witsend

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« Reply #175 on: 14/06/2009 15:55:54 »
Vern.  Sorry I'm answering you here.  Posts come in so quick.  It's great But I see the need to identify the post.  sorry for the omission.

The newly combined matter congregates into giant nebula and begins the process anew.Vern

OK  I sort of agree with that.  Do you see the reconstituded mass - the nebulae  coming out of a worm hole? something like that - from black holes?  Why should matter cluster together.  Why not scattered evenly throughout space?

I LOVE this subject.  

 :o ;D  ::) [:X]
« Last Edit: 14/06/2009 16:00:39 by witsend »
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #176 on: 14/06/2009 15:57:12 »
Quote from: witsend
Hi Vern,  I missed this.  Actually it's not been posted long.  Speak your mind. Do you think that the introduction of more dimensions is simply nonsense - some sort of unncessary pomposity?  It actually IS critical.  I'm very aware of your positings throughout - even in discussion with Jerrygg38 - where you express your objections.  But it is necessay.  I thought the way I described it made it too simple for anyone to accuse it of some form of exotic abstractions.  I CANNOT work out your objection to it.
I don't object to the notion of multiple dimensions; I just don't see the necessity for them in the real world. I have no problem at all about speculation along those lines.  
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #177 on: 14/06/2009 15:59:45 »
Quote from: witsend
OK  I sort of agree with that.  Do you see the reconstituded mass - the nebulae  coming out of a worm hole? something like that - from black holes?  Why should matter cluster together.  Why not scattered evenly throughout space?
The matter clusters together because of gravity. Everything that exists exudes and responds to gravity. So everything naturally tries to get in the same place.

Edit: I suspect that worm holes, black holes, and white holes do not exist. There may be a not-yet-discovered natural mechanism that prevents matter from compressing to a singularity. For example; if gravity is affected by gravity as is light, that would limit the compression and prevent the singularity.

And in my speculation, gravity is made of light, so no black holes; no big bang. :)
« Last Edit: 14/06/2009 16:15:51 by Vern »
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #178 on: 14/06/2009 16:32:00 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
Yes Vern, the practical engineer is showing in you. It is an advantage since we are used to buiding things which work.
Exactly ! We build using the tried and true; we keep our speculation out of our building process. :)
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #179 on: 14/06/2009 16:34:49 »
Jerrygg38, I really am not questioning your right to see your universe in any way you want.  I've said it and say it again, I think that your solutions are really, really amazing.  They're elegant and poetic and really quite beautiful.  A gyroscopic action in three dimensions.  It's geometrically truly fascinating. And I LOVE patterns.  Especially moving patterns.  What's not to like?   I am ABSOLUTELY not in a position to criticise it.  On the contrary.  I think the concepts are wonderful.

My only hope was that you could follow my own concepts.  Not because they're important - but because I'd like to explain how I sort of try to piece the forces together.  Like I say.  It's not that only one of us can be right. Let me assure you - there is very little chance that I can even be half way right.  But I do have a compelling explanation for how I see the forces reconciled.  But you don't have to read it or understand it.  It would be just be so nice if you did.

And we are DEFINITELY not in competition.  I can't compete.  It's like marathan runner competing with child.  It just would not be fair.  I need a handicap allowance.
« Last Edit: 14/06/2009 16:58:34 by witsend »
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #180 on: 14/06/2009 16:54:12 »
There may be a not-yet-discovered natural mechanism that prevents matter from compressing to a singularity. Vern

Could that no-yet-discovered natural mechanism be dark matter and - the fact that galaxies move apart - dark energy?  Given a few more years, and wider acceptance, would this concept not then become a NATURAL MECHANISM?   They've got the math and the proof.  They're just looking for a particle?
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #181 on: 14/06/2009 17:09:32 »
Quote from: witsend
Could that no-yet-discovered natural mechanism be dark matter and - the fact that galaxies move apart - dark energy?  Given a few more years, and wider acceptance, would this concept not then become a NATURAL MECHANISM?   They've got the math and the proof.  They're just looking for a particle?
I'm not sure they have the proof. They have the measurements. Then they have speculation about what could cause the conditions they measure. It is entirely possible that stable, electrically-neutral, particles might exist.

I suspect that it is not likely that dark energy exists. Maybe the universe is not expanding. Maybe light gives up energy as it ages.
 

Offline jerrygg38

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« Reply #182 on: 14/06/2009 17:19:19 »
Jerrygg38, I really am not questioning your right to see your universe in any way you want.  I've said it and say it again, I think that your solutions are really, really amazing.  They're elegant and poetic and really quite beautiful.  A gyroscopic action in three dimensions.  It's geometrically truly fascinating. And I LOVE patterns.  Especially moving patterns.  What's not to like?   I am ABSOLUTELY not in a position to criticise it.  On the contrary.  I think the concepts are wonderful.

My only hope was that you could follow my own concepts.  Not because they're important - but because I'd like to explain how I sort of try to piece the forces together.  Like I say.  It's not that only one of us can be right. Let me assure you - there is very little chance that I can even be half way right.  But I do have a compelling explanation for how I see the forces reconciled.  But you don't have to read it or understand it.  It would be just be so nice if you did.

And we are DEFINITELY not in competition.  I can't compete.  It's like marathan runner competing with child.  It just would not be fair.  I need a handicap allowance.

It is not easy for me to pump additional information into my brain. For 27 years I tried not to read or learn anyone elses ideas as I worked on my theory. Some people have the brain capacity to carry a million different ideas. To me I just get confused. Too much data destroys my ability to think clearly. I have a hard enough time with my bipolar brain. If I flood it, it just spins rapidly. so I only scan data.
  Sorry I cannot be much help. Vern is very good in grabbing some of your ideas. I am not.
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #183 on: 14/06/2009 17:21:05 »
There really is proof.  Since 1920 they found discrepancy with mass ratios and then it was conclusively proven with Hubble telescopes.  They see it in gravitational lensing. Look up Michio Kaku - Davis, Ellis and Bauer.  They can be googled - maybe under Caltech?  Otherwise just dark energy dark matter.  But I see what you mean.

I suspect that it is not likely that dark energy exists. Maybe the universe is not expanding. Maybe light gives up energy as it ages. Vern

And then again maybe not.    
 

Offline jerrygg38

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« Reply #184 on: 14/06/2009 17:23:23 »
Quote from: witsend
Could that no-yet-discovered natural mechanism be dark matter and - the fact that galaxies move apart - dark energy?  Given a few more years, and wider acceptance, would this concept not then become a NATURAL MECHANISM?   They've got the math and the proof.  They're just looking for a particle?
I'm not sure they have the proof. They have the measurements. Then they have speculation about what could cause the conditions they measure. It is entirely possible that stable, electrically-neutral, particles might exist.

I suspect that it is not likely that dark energy exists. Maybe the universe is not expanding. Maybe light gives up energy as it ages.

 If you are right, there goes my gravity since as the universe expands it produces counter gravitational forces which push matter together. A contracting universe tends to produce anti-gravity.
  In effect, the expansion of the electromagnetic field induces gravitational eddy currents which squeeze matter.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #185 on: 14/06/2009 17:31:06 »
Quote from: witsend
There really is proof.  Since 1920 they found discrepancy with mass ratios and then it was conclusively proven with Hubble telescopes.
Yes; these are the measurements.  Stars move too fast in galaxies. This would happen if there were invisible mass that makes gravity stronger. But if gravity affects gravity the way gravity affects light, that would also explain why there seems to be too much gravity in the galactic plane.

And then; galaxies spew out ions and atoms and light of all frequencies. They all do that from the time of their earliest existence. All this spewed out stuff contributes to the gravity of the system. Yet; it is not considered in the calculations.
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #186 on: 14/06/2009 17:31:29 »
Jerrygg38 I can't speak for Vern, but I KNOW that there is a really growing number of people who believe that the universe is expanding.  This is another thing that's been measured.  I personally don't agree with it.  Not sure about Vern.  But you're definitely in the general stream in expecting expansion.  Really it's interesting that you required it because it's generally considered to be a fact.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #187 on: 14/06/2009 17:34:28 »
Quote from: witsend
Jerrygg38 I can't speak for Vern, but I KNOW that there is a really growing number of people who believe that the universe is expanding.
My wife accuses me of not even believing the road in front of the house goes to the same place today as it did yesterday. I suspect a lot; I believe very little.
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #188 on: 14/06/2009 17:39:10 »
All this spewed out stuff contributes to the gravity of the system. Yet; it is not considered in the calculations. Vern

I thought that if mass is ejected from a system then it would reduce the mass and thereby the gravity?  Is that wrong?

 ???
 

Offline jerrygg38

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« Reply #189 on: 14/06/2009 17:45:39 »
Quote from: witsend
Jerrygg38 I can't speak for Vern, but I KNOW that there is a really growing number of people who believe that the universe is expanding.
My wife accuses me of not even believing the road in front of the house goes to the same place today as it did yesterday. I suspect a lot; I believe very little.

  I live close to a road that goes in a complete circle. You can get on the road and keep going until you run out of gas. It only goes where it wants to go.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #190 on: 14/06/2009 17:48:41 »
All this spewed out stuff contributes to the gravity of the system. Yet; it is not considered in the calculations. Vern

I thought that if mass is ejected from a system then it would reduce the mass and thereby the gravity?  Is that wrong?

 ???
Consider the size of the system. Galaxies are on the order of a hundred thousand light years in diameter; spewed out stuff must then remain in the system for at least that amount of time.

Edit: I'm guessing the noticeable effect would span double the radius.
« Last Edit: 14/06/2009 17:52:15 by Vern »
 

Offline jerrygg38

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« Reply #191 on: 14/06/2009 17:49:42 »
Jerrygg38 I can't speak for Vern, but I KNOW that there is a really growing number of people who believe that the universe is expanding.  This is another thing that's been measured.  I personally don't agree with it.  Not sure about Vern.  But you're definitely in the general stream in expecting expansion.  Really it's interesting that you required it because it's generally considered to be a fact.

I don't agree with Vern on this issue. The evidence for a big bang and an expanding universe convinces me. I studied many alternatives over the years but in the end I believe it is true. I do not believe that the universe is expanding faster today than years ago.
  To me the red shift is part expansion and part loss of photonic energy as the universe expands. Thus I take a dual position in that the red shift has several explanations. I will post my red shift explanation soon.
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #192 on: 14/06/2009 18:00:49 »
Jerrygg38 - I actually think that Vern is arguing for the sake of arguing!!  I agree with his wife.  He's a hopeless sceptical conservative.  In the general scheme of things and given a few hundred years back he would be a FLAT EARTHER!!  I, on the other hand, and open minded and curious.  IGNORE HIM!!!

Yet again Vern.  I've got my finger dangerously near that 'report to moderator' button!!!!!! ??? ??? ???

EDIT I do hope that nobody actually is taking this post seriously.
« Last Edit: 14/06/2009 18:26:09 by witsend »
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #193 on: 14/06/2009 18:40:13 »
Galaxies are on the order of a hundred thousand light years in diameter; spewed out stuff must then remain in the system for at least that amount of time.

You've missed the point.  They cannot get enough mass to account for the fact that the outer boundaries of the galaxies spin at the same rate as the inner.  Unlike Newton/Einstein, who need the inner Mercury, for instance, to spin faster than Pluto because Mercury is nearer to the Sun's mass.

It was first considered 'missing matter'.  It then became known as dark matter.  The only thing that can account for this is a WIMP and they have looked for 10 years and not yet found one.
« Last Edit: 14/06/2009 18:43:04 by witsend »
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #194 on: 14/06/2009 18:47:10 »
Quote from: witsend
You've missed the point.  They cannot get enough mass to account for the fact that the outer boundaries of the galaxies spin at the same rate as the inner.
How is this different than saying the stars are moving too fast? I get the point. There needs to be more gravity to account for the extra speed. I was speculating about things other than dark matter that might account for the needed gravity.

If gravity affects gravity the way gravity affects light; that would account for the anomaly.

A hundred thousand years worth of ejected matter will account for at least some of the extra gravity.
« Last Edit: 14/06/2009 18:50:26 by Vern »
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #195 on: 14/06/2009 18:48:36 »
Quote from: witsend
Yet again Vern.  I've got my finger dangerously near that 'report to moderator' button!!!!!!  ??? ??? ???
I guess you could report that I was speculating in the speculation section.  ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: 14/06/2009 19:03:55 by Vern »
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #196 on: 14/06/2009 19:16:31 »
A hundred thousand years worth of ejected matter will account for at least some of the extra gravity. Vern.

I still don't see it.  Are you suggesting that the ejected matter is somehow near enough to increase the gravity?  Sort of within reach, but not visible?  I can't comment.  I would have thought that they'd have found it?  But can't comment.  I don't know.  Michio Kaku refers to a 'halo effect' where the mass of invisible matter is clustered in chunks around the boundaries of the galaxies. 

What I think is this.  If they need a truly unique - previously unconsidered - particle, then maybe it's a magnetic particle, moves at 2c and interacts with matter in a second 'time' dimension.  This would defintely give that consistent velocity at all parts of the cluster.
« Last Edit: 14/06/2009 19:30:06 by witsend »
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #197 on: 14/06/2009 19:26:10 »
You know what?  I'm stuck on the thought that a photon can expend energy?  What an interesting thought.  But that's definitely not classical physics.  My objection to photons ever clustering anywhere is that they always move - ever onwards and outwards.  I believe they respond to a gravitational field but do not create them.  Can't see it.  In any event it's now getting so off the point.  But something intrigues me.  What makes ball lightning?  That's a cluster of photons doing exactly what photons should not do.  They mass together.  And it must be photons because when the ball decays it emits photons.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #198 on: 14/06/2009 19:37:27 »
Quote from: witsend
Michio Kaku refers to a 'halo effect' where the mass of invisible matter is clustered in chunks around the boundaries of the galaxies.
I saw the work; that started me thinking about the ejected matter; it would be a halo effect around the galaxy.

It is standard established theory that photons do both produce and respond to gravity. It breaks the math it that is not so. I suspect photons lose energy as they travel through space by reacting with electrons in space.

Lyndon Ashmore worked out the maths for photons reaction with electrons in space.

Quote from: the link
Tired Light is an alternative theory to that of the expanding Universe. This theory explains the experimental evidence without resorting to the 'cosmological constants' or 'vacuum energy' that are essential to the theory of the expanding Universe.

Experiment tells us that photons of light from distant galaxies have a longer wavelength on arrival than when they set off. Since red light has a longer wavelength than blue light, we say that they have been 'redshifted'. The Theory of the Expanding Universe explains this as space expanding and stretching the photons as it does so. In Tired Light we say that the photons lost energy during their journey to us by bumping into electrons on the way.
« Last Edit: 14/06/2009 19:40:37 by Vern »
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #199 on: 14/06/2009 19:44:04 »
I'm going to take a break.  The mind is reeling.  Please Vern, find out about Ball lightening.  Is it acknowledged as a scientific phenomena or is it crank reporting.  I'll check the post later. I'm exhausted.  What is it if it's real? 
 

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