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Offline Vern

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« Reply #25 on: 11/06/2009 15:54:34 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
JG: I am trying to work out this equation. Letís see:

  1) E = MC^2

 2)  P = MC

  E= PC

  E^2 = M^2C^4

Or

E^2 = P^2C^2

Now in the physics books, Einstein & Company combined both equations.

In all my work, I only use the first equation or the second. Was Einstein correct? I cannot justify that it is perfectly correct. The experimental data falls somewhere between one equation and the other. Therefore I cannot say that it is absolutely true or only partially true.

What do you think Vern??
The E = mc2 neglects momentum; this is known; I suspect the equation is correct. However, it is not Einstein's equation. Poincare used that in the 1800's.

To me the photon does not have mass because it is mass. Any time a photon is contained within a local system, it contributes to the mass of the system; a local system may be a mirrored box for example.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #26 on: 11/06/2009 15:59:45 »
Quote from: witsend
I actually need 10.  It's because the magnetic fields have three dimensions of space (share ours) but operate in a different time dimension.  We've sort of defined that?  I think so.

Okay; I'll look for the reasoning for the 10 dimensions. :)
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #27 on: 11/06/2009 16:17:11 »
jerryGG38.  I think I understand it.

T- and T+ with everything manifest inbetween.  Also, as I understand it - some property in our own universe induces a repeatable singularity so we're perpetually being created - destroyed and re-created?  Also, your model allows for a multiverse.  Really complex images here.  Have difficulty getting my mind around it.

Barring a full description of these things, have I at least got this much right?

Yes I'd like a copy of your book.  Would I understand it though?  Knowing you it'll be packed with equations and not enough description.  If you'll clarify this, then I'll email you my address.  But jerryGG38 - please only send this if there's an outside chance I'll understand it.  I don't want you to go to the trouble otherwise.  I have no idea how to get the money to you in America to pay for it - but will check with my bank.  They'll arrange it.

The only way I make money is being a handyman.
I would love to find any way at all to make money. It'd be a really nice change.

When it comes to describing a photon in motion, jerryGG39 - you've lost me.  But I'll press on.

EDIT - jerryGG39 - Just re-read the post.  I've made you one year younger.  If I keep this up I'll have found the answer to perpetual youth.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2009 18:29:38 by witsend »
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #28 on: 11/06/2009 16:40:00 »
Vern, to continue from the big field.  - that great big toroid.  Next comes 'the singularity'.  My proposal is that something changes.  Some disturbance to that really structured field.  Maybe one of jerryGG's magnetic monopoles break free.  And - as I wrote in the paper, maybe God stirred it with a great big spoon.  Whatever.

This is the next problem that I need you to wrap your mind around. If these little zippons are disturbed from their orderly existence inside that orderly field, then what would happen?  What I've proposed is that they either lose momentum and gain mass, or the lose mass and gain momentum.  Either way they manifest outside that structured field. 

But.  If they lose momentum and gain mass then they would, in effect, act in the same way that we know virtual particles behave.  They would manifest, briefly in some form related to the force that separted them from the field.  Then, when that energy is expended, rememeber, they're just little magnets - they'd regain velocity - lose that mass and simply slot back into the bigger containing magnetic field.  And vice versa for those zipons that lost mass and gained velocity.   
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #29 on: 11/06/2009 16:47:10 »
Vern, by the way, boundary constraints are simply the analogy I use to explain the different dimensions.  You won't find it anywhere.  It's how I describe the fact that we are, in effect, invisible to these magnetic fields.  They just do not interact with anything that does not have an equal mass and velocity. 

I'll describe how matter does interact but I'll do that later.  I've got a really boring neighbourhood watch meeting to go to.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #30 on: 11/06/2009 17:14:49 »
Quote from: witsend
But.  If they lose momentum and gain mass then they would, in effect, act in the same way that we know virtual particles behave.  They would manifest, briefly in some form related to the force that separted them from the field.  Then, when that energy is expended, rememeber, they're just little magnets - they'd regain velocity - lose that mass and simply slot back into the bigger containing magnetic field.  And vice versa for those zipons that lost mass and gained velocity.
Virtual particles are an invention of QM theory and arise out of the need to convey forces via particle transfer. Normal particles just don't behave exactly right to act alone.

I can visualize the zipon field, but I don't understand the need for more than four dimensions, the need for them to move at 2c, or the need to dispense with the normal electromagnetic field. At some point the zipons must create the fields that we know about and can measure.

 

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« Reply #31 on: 11/06/2009 18:03:20 »
Sophiecentaur. I outlined the 'conditions' of this proposed discussion at the opening post.  I specifically asked that you do not criticise the content on the basis of my lack of qualifications.  At this point I am developing the argument with the dialectic.  It is a valid tool.  And I am well qualified in its use.

If you do not like my contributions can you not simply ignore them?  But, if you continually dominate this thread with constant reminders as to my lack of scientific qualfication - as you did in the previous - then this thread is doomed.

If BenV or any moderators object to my contribution then please advise me.  I am specifically asking.  Am I allowed to post here - notwithstanding my lack of conventional scientific training?  If not - then I will stop posting.  If I am, then may I ask why you keep reading my threads?  They cannot possibly be of any interest to you because, as you say, I am 'arm waving'. Just look elsewhere for heaven's sake.  And let me try and get some answers to these questions.   
 
So, I take it that this means you are entitled to make any statements you like and not be challenged? I don't care what your qualifications are. It's what you write that is in question. Hiding behind ignorance doesn't justify errors in so-called Scientific assertions.

I wish you would give the well established work as generous a reception. When you feel like it, you just say "it doesn't make sense".
Is this a Science Forum or a Fantasy Forum?

Perhaps you should post on Just Chat, where no one expects Scientific rigour.
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #32 on: 11/06/2009 18:17:12 »
Virtual particles are an invention of QM theory and arise out of the need to convey forces via particle transfer. Normal particles just don't behave exactly right to act alone. Vern.

Hi Vern.  I'm back.

I'm trying to follow advice here and keep my points brief.  ;D

You get the idea of the field.  Do you get the idea of what would happen if those fields were disturbed?  I'm suggesting that they would leave the boundary constraints of the structured field and manifest as truants, in haphazard disorderly fields as evident in nebulae.  All that has happened is that they have retained their neutral charge - and they have gained mass in inverse proportion to their loss in velocity.  To the best of my knowledge this is not a 'regular' idea.  I hope the idea is feasible.  Because -

I've suggested as a first step after this disturbance - these little magnets do what all good magnets do.  The simply try to reassemble that chaotic state back into the structured state of a magnetic field.  They look to find a renewed structure.  Some return to the structured field - that 'skeleton', so to speak, or backdrop behind all that is manifest - a primary field.  Others, through a 'remarkable co-incidence of good timing' find a partner.  But that partner is found, not in another, let's call it a manifest truant but in a non manifest truant.  These are the zipons that left the field at an increased velocity and a loss in mass.  If such a partner is found, then the truants become stable particles, able to withstand the 'force' of the field.  In effect - the partner, I'll explain this in another post, stabilises or anchors the manfiest truant out of the field.  That partner I've identified as a quark.

Vern, quark, in this description may not be quark in conventional descriptions.  In the same way virtual particles may not be virtual particles in conventional descriptions.  But, I have referred to both ONLY in the context of the model's definition.  It's going to tax your patience.  But bear with me. :)

And, quickly, these then are the 10 dimensions - again only in terms of my description.  I've referenced them as 'realities' but I'm sure there's better ways to describe it.  The first reality, are our 3 dimensions of space and 1 of time.  The second is the primary magnetic field's reality.  They share our space dimensions but precede our timeframe - also 4 dimensions.  The third reality belongs to these quarks (my definition of the term) that only have 2 dimensions as they have no mass - only velocity and they share the first reality's time dimensions.  So 4 to the first, 4 to the second and 2 to the third - makes 10 dimensions.


 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #33 on: 11/06/2009 18:23:30 »
Regarding Sophiecentaur's criticisms - he's right.  As a rule a trained mind is simply bored with an untrained.  Of necessity I plod.



Sophiecentaur.  What must I say or do to stop your eternal attack.  If you don't like me posting here then please check with the moderators.  I'll get off this thread and this forum if it is required.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #34 on: 11/06/2009 18:35:09 »
Quote from: witsend
Vern, quark, in this description may not be quark in conventional descriptions.  In the same way virtual particles may not be virtual particles in conventional descriptions.  But, I have referred to both ONLY in the context of the model's definition.  It's going to tax your patience.  But bear with me. :)

And, quickly, these then are the 10 dimensions - again only in terms of my description.  I've referenced them as 'realities' but I'm sure there's better ways to describe it.  The first reality, are our 3 dimensions of space and 1 of time.  The second is the primary magnetic field's reality.  They share our space dimensions but precede our timeframe - also 4 dimensions.  The third reality belongs to these quarks (my definition of the term) that only have 2 dimensions as they have no mass - only velocity and they share the first reality's time dimensions.  So 4 to the first, 4 to the second and 2 to the third - makes 10 dimensions.
So, we have virtual particles and quarks that are not the established type. :) Have you thought about how zipons react to create relativity phenomena when matter moves in space and time. Or do you keep Einstein's notion of warped space-time with no causality?
« Last Edit: 11/06/2009 21:55:27 by Vern »
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #35 on: 11/06/2009 18:49:51 »
So, we have virtual particles and quarks that are not the established type. Have you thought about how zipons react to create relativity phenomena when matter moves in space and time. Or do you keep Einstein's notion of warped space-time with no causality. vern

I'm suggesting that stable particles are composites of manifest and non manifest truants.  I'm suggesting that if they are not anchored they will return to the field.  At this stage I have no idea if it conforms to conventional terms.  I'm suggesting that the dissapearnce from view of all particles is when they decay back into the field.  If they have an anchoring partner, then they do not 'slip back in' permenantly.  They interact with the field but are able to retain their composite structure and remain outside of the field.

Here's my question.  Do you get the concept?  I am not, at this stage, asking for your agreement.

I'm keeping the threads short so I just don't want to clutter it with too much information in the hopes that as I move forward with the argument I at least know that it's understood or where it is that I may be losing you.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2009 18:52:28 by witsend »
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #36 on: 11/06/2009 19:02:04 »
I can visualize the zipon field, but I don't understand the need for more than four dimensions, the need for them to move at 2c, or the need to dispense with the normal electromagnetic field. At some point the zipons must create the fields that we know about and can measure. Vern

I cannot dispense with the normal electromagnetic field.  Nor with the strong and weak nuclear force.  Nor with gravity.  I'm hoping to show you how these are reconcilable.  But I can't do it in one fell swoop.  I know my descriptions in the field model are badly explained.  I don't want to make the mistake of running ahead with the argument if it is not clear - or, indeed, if you find something in it that's illogical.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #37 on: 11/06/2009 19:33:58 »
Quote from: witsend
Here's my question.  Do you get the concept?  I am not, at this stage, asking for your agreement.
I think I get the concept; but I don't see how everything ties together to give you such a compelling sense that it may represent reality.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #38 on: 11/06/2009 19:37:47 »
Quote from: witsend
I cannot dispense with the normal electromagnetic field.  Nor with the strong and weak nuclear force.  Nor with gravity.  I'm hoping to show you how these are reconcilable.
You would need more than reconciliation; you would need to show how your concept demands them. :) And, we need the relationship between zipons and relativity phenomena.

For example, if the final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field, relativity phenomena results naturally. If the most elementary constituents of matter must always move at the invariant speed of light, matter must distort when it moves, and so we have relativity.
 

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« Reply #39 on: 11/06/2009 19:44:20 »
And, we need the relationship between zipons and relativity phenomena./b]
I hope to get there.  But right now I'm going to have to marshall the resourses and take a break.  jerryGG38's been quiet.  I presume he's working.  Thanks for the input thus far.  I'll get back to you.

This is such fun - for me anyway.  Thanks again.  :)
 

Offline jerrygg38

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« Reply #40 on: 11/06/2009 21:14:07 »



The E = mc2 neglects momentum; this is known; I suspect the equation is correct. However, it is not Einstein's equation. Poincare used that in the 1800's.

To me the photon does not have mass because it is mass. Any time a photon is contained within a local system, it contributes to the mass of the system; a local system may be a mirrored box for example.

[/quote]

Yes confined photons within a particular volume are mass. The only problem I have with the equation is that if the mass is moving at light speed, then how can it have additional momentum? If the speed of light is the limit, then moving a mass with linear momentum must reduce the orbital speeds.
 

Offline jerrygg38

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« Reply #41 on: 11/06/2009 21:20:35 »


And, we need the relationship between zipons and relativity phenomena./b]
I hope to get there.  But right now I'm going to have to marshall the resourses and take a break.  jerryGG38's been quiet.  I presume he's working.  Thanks for the input thus far.  I'll get back to you.

This is such fun - for me anyway.  Thanks again.  :)

No work today but they opened up a new Sams club. Then I had lunch and TV after lunch then fell asleep. I just looked at Verns answers. Some of this stuff is not what I have been thinking about. So Vern appear very knowledgeable in these areas.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #42 on: 11/06/2009 21:54:08 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
Yes confined photons within a particular volume are mass. The only problem I have with the equation is that if the mass is moving at light speed, then how can it have additional momentum? If the speed of light is the limit, then moving a mass with linear momentum must reduce the orbital speeds.
There should be no problem. The photon does not have mass. I just say that it is mass. I suspect that mass is nothing more than electromagnetic change. The arithmetic works for that concept. Any time there is electric and magnetic amplitude change in a local area, you can compute the mass with established maths.

Quote from: jerrygg38
If the speed of light is the limit, then moving a mass with linear momentum must reduce the orbital speeds.
Yes; this is called time dilation. Mass made of light must experience time dilation when it moves. 
« Last Edit: 11/06/2009 21:59:48 by Vern »
 

Offline jerrygg38

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« Reply #43 on: 11/06/2009 22:06:19 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
Yes confined photons within a particular volume are mass. The only problem I have with the equation is that if the mass is moving at light speed, then how can it have additional momentum? If the speed of light is the limit, then moving a mass with linear momentum must reduce the orbital speeds.
There should be no problem. The photon does not have mass. I just say that it is mass. I suspect that mass is nothing more than electromagnetic change. The arithmetic works for that concept. Any time there is electric and magnetic amplitude change in a local area, you can compute the mass with established maths.

Quote from: jerrygg38
If the speed of light is the limit, then moving a mass with linear momentum must reduce the orbital speeds.
Yes; this is called time dilation. Mass made of light must experience time dilation when it moves. 

Answer No. 1 sounds good to me. Mass to me isthe spinning of electromagnetic fields. Same as you.

Answer No.2 I never thought of. Is it your original idea or standard Einsteinian?  At first though it would solve my problem. The rotation slows as the linear velocity increases. Yes. If we look at the light photon when stationary, it is moving fast in a circular pattern. As it moves at light speed, it travels a huge distance before completing a circle. Anyway I will have to think about answer 2 for awhile.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #44 on: 11/06/2009 22:17:37 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
Answer No.2 I never thought of. Is it your original idea or standard Einsteinian?
Not Einstein; but I suspect Maxwell originated the concept and it was developed by Poincare, Fitzgerald, and Lorentz. The result was the Lorentz transformations. I came up with the concept independently, but before I could celebrate, I discovered that the idea was very old.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2009 22:21:29 by Vern »
 

Offline jerrygg38

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« Reply #45 on: 11/06/2009 22:28:14 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
Answer No.2 I never thought of. Is it your original idea or standard Einsteinian?
Not Einstein; but I suspect Maxwell originated the concept and it was developed by Poincare, Fitzgerald, and Lorentz. The result was the Lorentz transformations. I came up with the concept independently, but before I could celebrate, I discovered that the idea was very old.

I am familar with the standard stuff but I never related it to a ball of energy traveling internally moving at light speed and then moving in the forward direction. Are you sure that the others specified this?
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #46 on: 11/06/2009 22:38:09 »
This is the first mention I found of the concept. It comes from one of Einstein's articles.

Development of Our Conception of the
Nature and Constitution of Radiation


Quote from: the link
H. Ziegler: If one thinks about the basic particles of matter as invisible little spheres which possess an invariable speed of light, then all interactions of matter like states and electrodynamic phenomena can be described and thus we would have erected the bridge between the material and immaterial world that Mr. Planck wanted.
« Last Edit: 13/06/2009 15:01:02 by Vern »
 

Offline jerrygg38

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« Reply #47 on: 11/06/2009 22:44:11 »
This is the first mention I found of the concept. It comes from one of Einstein's articles. Development of Our Conception of the
Nature and Constitution of Radiation


Quote from: the link
H. Ziegler: If one thinks about the basic particles of matter as invisible little spheres which possess an invariable speed of light, then all interactions of matter like states and electrodynamic phenomena can be described and thus we would have erected the bridge between the material and immaterial world that Mr. Planck wanted.

Thanks
 

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« Reply #48 on: 11/06/2009 23:45:05 »
Regarding Sophiecentaur's criticisms - he's right.  As a rule a trained mind is simply bored with an untrained.  Of necessity I plod.



Sophiecentaur.  What must I say or do to stop your eternal attack.  If you don't like me posting here then please check with the moderators.  I'll get off this thread and this forum if it is required.

My 'attacks' are on the content of what you have written. If you want it to be taken seriously then it really needs to have some consistency with reality.

You have still not answered my very reasonable challenge to justify your theory by applying it to the Hydrogen atom and obtaining the right values for the spectral lines.

If your theory can't do that then it has fallen at the first fence and has no credibility. That isn't an attack - it's a perfectly reasonable question. Answer it or admit that the theory doesn't have any substance.

Why am I not allowed to ask a perfectly reasonable question - just because it may be an embarrassing one?
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #49 on: 12/06/2009 00:47:45 »
This is the first mention I found of the concept. It comes from one of Einstein's articles.
Development of Our Conception of the
Nature and Constitution of Radiation


Quote from: the link
H. Ziegler: If one thinks about the basic particles of matter as invisible little spheres which possess an invariable speed of light, then all interactions of matter like states and electrodynamic phenomena can be described and thus we would have erected the bridge between the material and immaterial world that Mr. Planck wanted.

Edit: As I look back at this I see that my post didn't take for some reason. Now I've forgotten what it was. I am sure it was some brilliant observation, but now it is lost forever, I'm afraid.:)
« Last Edit: 12/06/2009 02:20:50 by Vern »
 

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