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Author Topic: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?  (Read 35694 times)

Simpleton

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Dear Forum members,

There seems to have been a great deal of chat within the forums (and externally) about the Influenza virus (H1N1, H5N1, Swine Flu) including what it is, how it affects us, what effects vaccines have on us etc etc. From my understanding, if you become infected and have no previous resistance, you and your immune system have to deal with the current strain for between 5-7 days. As the virus takes a hold within the cells and the immune system kicks in sending white soldiers to the battle, the first response (on medical advice) is to take the Anti-viral medicine Relenza or Tamiflu, within 24-48 hours of fever. What I would like to know is, "Is that it?"

What natural complementary remedies are there?
Are they likely to be any of help?
Can the list below be used in conjunction with Tamiflu?

What about Garlic?
or Vitamin C
or White Tea
or Fern-leaved Biscuit-root (Lomatium dissectum)
or Betulinic Acid
or Black Elder berries
or Goji berries,
or Icelandic angelica
or Prunella vulgaris
or Vitamin D
or even Ozone therapy

Based on the current national and international advice, if I become ill with H1N1 like symptoms I should not go to my doctor, for risk of infecting others. If I get really sick (bad breathing or organ complications) I could go to hospital if beds are available at this time, mmm.... For a moment, I imagine myself at home with the onset of fever, so there I am with my medical kit containing some Asprin and Paracetamol and my dose of Tamiflu or Relenza or both?, hoping & praying the current virus has not already found partial or full immunity to those products or indeed mutated and is even stronger than the reported mild version.

That's it? That's my defence? My life could depend on this! Is that all the scientific and medical community can offer me? Come on, this is 2009...We are off to Mars soon!

What about if my first aid kit contained some or all of the list above, measured into the correct dosages, together with a precise plan of when to take what and in what order. Are my chances of survival likely to be greater or not?

What other complementary medicines are there?
What remedies helped in previous outbreaks?
Is anyone interested in helping to put a more concise list together?
Would like to also document dosages and a specific timetable for the 5-7 days?

Kind of hoped the WHO and various world government organisations, even pharmaceuticals would do all this for me, but seems not to be the case...its up to me personally, a Simpleton! It appears they all seem too busy buying vaccines, setting up advice lines and ensuring, together with the world media, that the public is in enough panic!

Looking forward to your response & collaboration.
« Last Edit: 04/08/2009 00:38:00 by Simpleton »

Bored chemist

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Re: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #1 on: 03/08/2009 19:29:22 »
Conventional medicine is medical treatment which has been shown to work.
What does that leave as the "alternative"?

That list of "remedies" is a list of things that have been not shown to work for other flu strains; why try them on this strain?


Even in the 21st century we rely on our immune system for practically everything.
We have been done it since before we knew what immunity was. It works pretty well in most cases.

The advice from the doctors is the best availlable guess at the best thing to do.

Simpleton

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Re: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #2 on: 04/08/2009 00:33:18 »
Conventional medicine is medical treatment which has been shown to work.

"Mmm. So as-far-as conventional medicine is concerned, Acupuncture, Herbalism and Homeopathy, for example, are at best, complementary medicines that problably do not work, and at worst witch-craft? One of the words used to define conventional medicine is "Western Medicine". Are we still living in a world where Western (conventional) doctors believe they are somehow better than medicinal doctors from other schools of thought? Oh dear. However, I don't really think that individual doctors believe this, I think it is more to do with what governments and pharmaceuticals think and what they then encourage (enforce) via doctors."

In the following definition (medicinenet.com), I dont see any reference to medical treatment that has been shown to work, actually find it a bit arrogant, actually very arrogant and quite naive, but guess that's how conventional medical dictatorship works.

Definition of Conventional medicine

Conventional medicine: Medicine as practiced by holders of M.D. (medical doctor) or D.O. (doctor of osteopathy) degrees and by their allied health professionals, such as physical therapists, psychologists, and registered nurses. Other terms for conventional medicine include allopathy and allopathic medicine; Western medicine, mainstream medicine, orthodox medicine, and regular medicine; and biomedicine."

What does that leave as the "alternative"?

"If I were to change the word from alternative to complementary, would that that mean I was able to consider my list of items as something potentially useful in conjunction with conventential medicine and therefore potentially useful for my first aid box? I would be really amazed if a conventional western doctor tried to argue that Acupuncture, Herbalism and Homoeopathy are disciplines that have no use in treating ailments in the 21st century. I think amazed is too light, actually I think the doctor would be laughed off the face of the planet."

Definition of Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM).

Alternative medicine: Healing arts not taught in traditional Western medical schools that promote options to conventional medicine that is taught in these schools. An example of an alternative therapy is using a special diet to treat cancer instead of undergoing surgery, radiation, or chemotherapy that has been recommended by a Western physician. Complementary medicine is different from alternative medicine. Whereas complementary medicine is used together with conventional medicine, alternative medicine is used in place of conventional medicine.

Complementary medicine: A group of diagnostic and therapeutic disciplines that are used together with conventional medicine. An example of a complementary therapy is using aromatherapy to help lessen a patient's discomfort following surgery."

That list of "remedies" is a list of things that have been not shown to work for other flu strains; why try them on this strain?

"Mmmm. Aha, So my list of "complementary" medicines has been shown not to work (by the fact they have not been monetised by conventional medicine??) or is there another list saying they dont work, full stop. Does that then mean, for example, Lomatium dissectum, in terms of conventional medicine, is to be disregarded as a medicinal plant that could not possibly help fight against H1N1?

Desert parsley (Lomatium dissectum) has been used by many Native American tribes to treat a wide variety of infections, mainly of the lungs. Historical and traditional sources report that desert parsley was used during the influenza pandemic of 1917 with positive results. http://www.healthline.com/natstandardcontent/desert-parsley

Is the above citation false or misleading or pure speculation possibly even based on witch-craft? Aha, moment, I see how it works now, I can cleary see the problem with the above paragraph..."Native Amercian tribe". Even if historical and tradional sources report positive results with its use, it cannot be considered anymore use than eating straw as it is not Western? Or did I slip up somewhere?"

Even in the 21st century we rely on our immune system for practically everything.

"Huh? So trying to strenghen the immune system with anything other than conventional medicine is a pointless exercise, even when an illness like the 2009 H1N1 virus, which no-one has immunity too, arises, and even when it may have had documented positive results in the past?"

We have been done it since before we knew what immunity was. It works pretty well in most cases.

"I agree (if I decipher your meaning correctly), the immune system is a wonderful part of the human makeup and is our first line defense against illness, and in most cases it functions as it was designed to do, perfectly. However I would strongly argue that this is not "most cases" and even would go so far as to say Epedemics, now a Panademic, is the total opposite of most cases."

The advice from the doctors is the best availlable guess at the best thing to do.

"Doctors being, Conventitional or Western Doctors, ok?  I must say the "best available guess" phrase does not give me an overiding sense of security when it comes to dealing with a virus that has no known cure and where previous bouts resulted worldwide in 10's of millions dying.

What is so wrong (apart from it not being conventional) with considering complementary medicine? Often in history, complementary remedies and practices have been shown, through years if not centurys or milleniums of actual practice, to be the basis for conventional medicinal "products".  I am quite sure in the 21st century we have collectively moved beyond the concept that we in the West know better than everyone else. You only have to look at the example of Eastern medicines and how the industry has exploded  over the past 20 years in the UK, times have most certainly changed.

I thankyou for your comment, especially from someone who has posted many comments on this forum (almost 4000) and is non other than a "Hero member". It certainly helped me to clearly see some of the differences between conventional, alternative and complementry medicine.

Sadly, it appears your advice (do what conventional doctors tell you to do, take prescription drugs) and you hardline stance on conventional medicine will prevent you from adding worth to my quest, that being, the creation of a personal Complementary First Aid Kit for H1N1 and other Influenza A & B strains.

Best regards."

« Last Edit: 04/08/2009 00:46:40 by Simpleton »

Simpleton

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Re: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #3 on: 04/08/2009 00:35:41 »
PS, Have changed the title of this conversation to read, complementary rather than alternative, in the hope more people feel safer to comment or participate.
« Last Edit: 04/08/2009 10:41:23 by Simpleton »

BenV

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #4 on: 04/08/2009 11:10:11 »
It seems to me you were prepared for a more aggressive response than Bored Chemist's rather reasonable comment above. 

Non-conventional medicine does get a luke-warm reception on this forum, often because it's linked with people claiming that conventional medicine is flawed, wrong or dangerous.  You can see why this sort of thing should not be encouraged here - should someone vulnerable read these threads and decide to forgo medical advice in favour of the latest wonder-berry or super-food, the consequences could be disasterous.

However, there is nothing wrong with taking whatever you feel will make you feel better. 

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So my list of "complementary" medicines has been shown not to work (by the fact they have not been monetised by conventional medicine??)

Things being "monetised" is irrelevant - if the NHS could stave off enough swine flu cases by advising people to eat garlic and drink green tea, they would be doing so.  (Think of the bonuses that people could award themselves, having shown to cut costs and improve health!)  The advice given most often by doctors is to eat healthily and get adequate exercise - who's making money from that?

Of course conventional medicine learns from herbal/traditional/'folk' medicine - it always has done, and will continue to do so.  But should doctors recommend something that is rumoured to work, or something that has undergone extensive tests and dosages calculated for best effect/least side effects?

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« Reply #5 on: 04/08/2009 12:26:46 »
Firstly, thanks for comment, I am glad this posting is sparking some reaction.

It seems to me you were prepared for a more aggressive response than Bored Chemist's rather reasonable comment above. 

"Rather reasonable comment? Which was that conventional western medicine is the only medicine you should consider against a virus that has no cure, even if we have historical evidence of positive results pertaining from complementary medicines such as herbalism; not sure about that.  To be honest, I am not here to dismiss or argue against conventional medicine, the opposite in fact. I would like to compliment the advances of conventional medicine. As there is are only a couple of medical suggestions from the conventional community ie. Relenza & Tamiflu, both of which may seem a level of resistance in a mutated version of H1N1, it would see sensible, to me, to look at complementary medicine. This would be especially true if resistance to conventional medicine is confirmed. In fact, if it was confirmed, what would be the advice from conventional doctors? Panic?

Non-conventional medicine does get a luke-warm reception on this forum, often because it's linked with people claiming that conventional medicine is flawed, wrong or dangerous.  You can see why this sort of thing should not be encouraged here - should someone vulnerable read these threads and decide to forgo medical advice in favour of the latest wonder-berry or super-food, the consequences could be disasterous.

"People who claim that conventional medicine is flawed, wrong or dangerous, are indeed Quacks! It is not that I'm looking necessarily for encouragement, but more a sharing of experiences in order to put together a complementary approach to the same problem. Perhaps science and nature can work together on this problem. To forgo conventional advice may be a choice made by people, but this post does not infer, at any time, that one should do that, in fact it is about building a first aid kit which includes conventional medicine. Another question that springs to mind...What would the consequences be of people ignoring complimentary medicine should, for example, Tamiflu and Relenza be useless in the coming months? Would that not be disasterous?"

However, there is nothing wrong with taking whatever you feel will make you feel better.

"That is clear, what I feel is only a subjective opinion, with a community of information and thought, perhaps it can be narrowed down to a more effective collection of treatments. However, the problem for most people is, which complementary forms work best, what quantities, when to dose, what to include or leave out of first aid kit, what historical evidence is there etc etc.. "

Quote
So my list of "complementary" medicines has been shown not to work (by the fact they have not been monetised by conventional medicine??)

Things being "monetised" is irrelevant - if the NHS could stave off enough swine flu cases by advising people to eat garlic and drink green tea, they would be doing so.  (Think of the bonuses that people could award themselves, having shown to cut costs and improve health!)  The advice given most often by doctors is to eat healthily and get adequate exercise - who's making money from that?

"Ok, it was below the belt (tongue in cheek). Actually, I don't know why the NHS is not promoting foods/complementary medicines high in Anti-viral properties, such as garlic. We have a viral problem and it is well know that garlic, for example, is high in Anti-viral properties (as other items on my initial list).  Why would the NHS not want to provide the public (customer) with as many possibilities to survive the illness as possible, especially as the conventional approach may have a short life span?  I mean, a national campaign, advertising garlic increase to those entering the initial stages of H1N1 may me a good idea, don't you think?  Still cannot see why conventional medicine is not willing to work alongside complimentary medicine for the good of all. Why are there no official conventional tests on items contained on my list? It's not because they don't work, full stop, is it? Is it not because no-one can patent it and therefore make money from it?  It can't be that difficult to carry out some live studies with current infections. A) it helped, B) it did not help.

Of course conventional medicine learns from herbal/traditional/'folk' medicine - it always has done, and will continue to do so.  But should doctors recommend something that is rumoured to work, or something that has undergone extensive tests and dosages calculated for best effect/least side effects?

"Doctors should always work for the best interests of the patient. As mentioned above, why is not possible to shrug off "rumoured to work" and complete initial testing to show how complimentary medicine can help the masses.  Perhaps the real fear is patient self application. For example, I could purchase all the items on the list and use them freely if I wish, with either good/bad or indifferent results. What would therefore the role of the doctor be?"  I would like to see this as a great opportunity for conventional, alternative and complimentary medicine to harmonise on a pandemic problem.  Will it become reality? Don't know?"

BenV

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #6 on: 04/08/2009 13:45:40 »
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Which was that conventional western medicine is the only medicine you should consider against a virus that has no cure, even if we have historical evidence of positive results pertaining from complementary medicines such as herbalism;

That's my point - that's not what he said.  He said that conventional medicine is stuff that's been proven to work - your list hasn't been proven to work, and that we really rely on our immune systems to deal with infection anyway.

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it would see sensible, to me, to look at complementary medicine. This would be especially true if resistance to conventional medicine is confirmed.

But I eat garlic almost every day - I love the stuff.  Flu would be far more likely to develop a resistance against a foodstuff that many of us eat regularly than a drug a few of us take occasionally.

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Is it not because no-one can patent it and therefore make money from it?  It can't be that difficult to carry out some live studies with current infections. A) it helped, B) it did not help.

This is a common misconception with the medical industry, that patents are all important.  I don't know how this applies in the rest of the world, but the NHS will snap at anything cheap or free, the companies who make generic drugs would also benefit (rather than risking lawsuits and prosecution).

Doing studies is actually not simple at all - the ethical issues alone take months and cost a great deal to resolve.  Sadly, it's just not that easy, and this is why the pharma industry need to spend billions on research.

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. As mentioned above, why is not possible to shrug off "rumoured to work" and complete initial testing to show how complimentary medicine can help the masses. 

Some of this testing has been done and things shown not to work, some has been done and things shown to work, after which the active components are usually identified and refined and called conventional medicine.

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Perhaps the real fear is patient self application. For example, I could purchase all the items on the list and use them freely if I wish, with either good/bad or indifferent results. What would therefore the role of the doctor be?

Sadly, the role may well be helping people to recover from taking too much, or inappropriately mixing different physiologically active compounds.


You seem to be an intelligent person who is fully able to risk assess for yourself, and can almost certainly try self-medicating with no ill effect.  The concern is that some people are not, and will harm themselves unintentionally.  As such, a doctor has a responsibility to recommend substances and courses of action that are well understood.

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #7 on: 04/08/2009 14:37:24 »
Thanks for replying.

Your replies resonate a calm, rational, solid understanding of the topic. I guess what I am seeing is a long way off in the future or indeed already occurred in another time or civilisation. It currently seems too big a shift in common consciousness to prepare the masses in time.

In the meantime, will prepare my own first aid kit, will probably have to self-research quantities and dosages and naturally experiment a little. Should I be unlucky enough to catch this flu, will implement the first aid plan, including conventional advice, if it is still pertinent , and then build it up from there. If the experiment is successful, and the internet still exists as we know it, will post conclusions here.

In line with conventional medicine, I'm off for a game of tennis, will drink plenty of water and have just polished off a banana, some grapes and an apple. May add more later!

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #8 on: 04/08/2009 17:40:41 »
Prevention is always better than cure. If you build up a strong immune system you are less likely to circum to the virus. Diet is the most important ingredient along with exercise, sleep and relaxation (eg having a massage every now and then. Avoiding stress is also a good idea but I guess it is not possible for most people.

Bored chemist

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« Reply #9 on: 04/08/2009 18:35:16 »
"In the meantime, will prepare my own first aid kit, "
For what it's worth, I have prepared my own first aid kit for flu.

Lots of bottled orange juice. Lots of biscuits and crisps (I think they are called chips across the pond). Vitamin pills too, but nothing extraordinary- just cheap one-a-day pills, Paracetamol (acetaminophen for our US cousins) and a few boxes of tissues.

The medical advice is "drink plenty of fluids and stay in bed".
The old adage that you should feed a fever is well supported (up to a point) so that's what all those calories are for) the paracetamol is partly because you can overdo a feever and also because, while I know that the fever (and associated malaise) are part of the body's immune response, it doesn't mean that I like the effect).
The vitamins are because all that comfort food is also junk food.
The tissues are because they have fewer side effects than decongestants (and again the normal drug treatments are at odds with the body's systems for dealing with infection).

All that lot isn't ging to stop me 'phoning the hot line and asking them to send me the antivirals because those have been shown to actually help.

I'm not planning to include eye of newt or tongue of bat because I don't think there's any evidence to support their use.


Incidentally the complement of something means the opposite so "alternative medicine" and "complemenatry medicine" mean much the same thing. Once again, there's medicine which works and the complement to that; medicine that... never mind, I'm sure you will work it out.

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« Reply #10 on: 04/08/2009 19:12:28 »
Prevention is always better than cure. If you build up a strong immune system you are less likely to circum to the virus. Diet is the most important ingredient along with exercise, sleep and relaxation (eg having a massage every now and then. Avoiding stress is also a good idea but I guess it is not possible for most people.

"Thanks for the reply.

What if the virus does not care about how strong your immune system is. What if the virus happily infects and kills healthy young people with good strong immune systems? It seems that the press is reporting such a situation (for example: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090629200800.htm), not sure how accurate it is, or what the exact statistics are, but worrying enough nonetheless.  I guess then it does not matter how good your diet is or how many hours sleep you get or how less stress your life has. Perhaps the only thing that will help, if it comes to the point, is a vaccine or a power natural anti-viral remedy, known or unknown."

Please also read the next comments to Bored Chemist. Against H5N1, a strong healthy immune system is reportedly a liability!
« Last Edit: 04/08/2009 20:20:14 by Simpleton »

Simpleton

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« Reply #11 on: 04/08/2009 20:16:08 »
"In the meantime, will prepare my own first aid kit, "
For what it's worth, I have prepared my own first aid kit for flu.

Lots of bottled orange juice. Lots of biscuits and crisps (I think they are called chips across the pond). Vitamin pills too, but nothing extraordinary- just cheap one-a-day pills, Paracetamol (acetaminophen for our US cousins) and a few boxes of tissues.

It's good to hear English humour, it is somewhat lacking here in Germany!

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The medical advice is "drink plenty of fluids and stay in bed".

How difficult would it be for the medical advice to read. "drink plenty of fluids containing tincture a, b, c and stay in bed."

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The old adage that you should feed a fever is well supported (up to a point) so that's what all those calories are for) the paracetamol is partly because you can overdo a feever and also because, while I know that the fever (and associated malaise) are part of the body's immune response, it doesn't mean that I like the effect).

If it was only a fever that we were discussing, I would totally agree (love English crisps). However & unfortunately it is not. My main interests in researching plants & root & foods/fruits with high anti-viral properties are two fold; firstly, current anti-viral medicines will soon be of little or no use should the virus mutate and become more virulent (studies in the US, Canada, Japan and Germany are already indicating mutation). Secondly, the virus turns ugly and produces a Cytokine storm reaction. If the virus develops this tendency, it will indeed void out the relationship to strength and ability of the immune system to be of use. In such a situation a strong healthy immune system, will ultimately become a liability not an asset. Time will then be of the essence as the virus reproduces.  Perhaps, just perhaps, the North American tribe folk who were reportedly, very lightly affected by the 1918 flu (in comparison to the rest of the US), due to their reported intake of Lomatium dissectum. There has also been research & tests conducted, with positive results...

History: Lomatium is an exceptionally important and highly regarded plant in First Nations medicine, but appears to have escaped the notice of the physiomedicalists and Eclectics. It is difficult to imagine how this occurred, considering that other equally important and useful First Nations plants such as Echinacea and Goldenseal were identified fairly early on. The relatively recent popularity of Lomatium is due in part to academic research conducted by ethnobotanists over the last century, by herbalists that apprenticed with First Nations healers, and from clinical experimentation in naturopaths circles in the Pacific Northwest. Lomatium first attracted the attention of the medical community when it was shown to be effected in treatment an influenza epidemic in the Great Basin area during the 1920's (Bergner 2001, 231).

http://1stnationstribes.tribe.net/thread/48f314c0-09b1-48a7-89a1-e24e8ca7313e

Presently the H1N1 is predominately mild, as it was back in 1918, it was subsequent waves of a mutated form that caused the mass deaths, especially in young healthy people. Perhaps the mild form can be complimented with a few bags of crisps, a packet of ASDA paracetamol, some orange juice and a box of tissues, but I'm not betting on them being much use against a mutilated form that is more virulent.

It is believed that cytokine storms were responsible for many of the deaths during the 1918 influenza pandemic, which killed a disproportionate number of young adults.[1] In this case, a healthy immune system may have been a liability rather than an asset. Preliminary research results from Hong Kong also indicated this as the probable reason for many deaths during the SARS epidemic in 2003.[6] Human deaths from the bird flu H5N1 usually involve cytokine storms as well.[7] Recent reports of high mortality among healthy young adults in the 2009 swine flu outbreak has led to speculation that cytokine storms could be responsible for these deaths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_storm

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All that lot isn't ging to stop me 'phoning the hot line and asking them to send me the antivirals because those have been shown to actually help.

And should they become resistant and there is no suitable alternative and no hot line? Bet you'd consider eye of newt or tongue of bat over hula hoops! When people become desperate all options are open. Before they become desperate it would be nice if they had a few more realistic options, even if they have not being billion dollar tested.

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Incidentally the complement of something means the opposite so "alternative medicine" and "complemenatry medicine" mean much the same thing. Once again, there's medicine which works and the complement to that; medicine that... never mind, I'm sure you will work it out.

Such a shame that two words, "complement and alternative" cant get on with "conventional"! 
The joys of academia.

Simpleton

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« Reply #12 on: 04/08/2009 20:46:02 »
A real story. Just been chatting to a friend on Facebook. A UK pair and their son recently developed flu like symptoms including tonsillitis. Her partners doctor refused to see him (full stop). Her doctor saw her and her young son after some persuasion and a story about interest in general illness. They eventually diagnosed tonsillitis. She says her partner and son still have flu, but it is not any worse than a normal bout. I have to say I am bit surprised by the partners doctors reaction.

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« Reply #13 on: 04/08/2009 21:31:05 »
"How difficult would it be for the medical advice to read. "drink plenty of fluids containing tincture a, b, c and stay in bed."
It would be easy; and dishonest.
Unless there were some real evidence that a, b, and c worked. If there is, then name a, b and c; otherwise accept that you don't have much to offer.

It's fair to say that the virus may mutate and become more of a problem.
It's equally likely  (statistically) that it will mutate and become less of a problem.
It is in the interests of the virus (if you will forgive the anthropomorphism) to become less of a problem.

Why does averyone seem to fixate on the idea that "it will get worse"; it might or it might not.

" Bet you'd consider eye of newt or tongue of bat over hula hoops! "
No I wouldn't I don't believe in magic but I do believe in evidence. Food is known to help snake oil isn't.

"Before they become desperate it would be nice if they had a few more realistic options, even if they have not being billion dollar tested."
There are at least 3 antivirals used; one (amantidine) is a bit crap (but I'd choose it rather than eye of newt) and the third is largely being kept in reserve for exactly the reasons you talk about.
Did you not realise that the people doing the planning can read wiki too? They have heard of resistance.


Incidentally, do you know that plenty of drugs are based on botanicals? Opium and it's derivatives are still used. Aspirin too has been used for a long time. More recently vincristine and taxine have been developed from plants.

If someone looks into lomatium and actually finds that it works then it too will be accepted into real medicine.
If the tests show that it doesn't work it will remain in what gets called "complementary medicine".

It will be there along with things like comfrey - known as "knitbone" because of its supposed healing properties and actually found to  be hepatotoxic and carcinogenic.



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« Reply #14 on: 04/08/2009 21:44:40 »
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Incidentally, do you know that plenty of drugs are based on botanicals? Opium and it's derivatives are still used. Aspirin too has been used for a long time. More recently vincristine and taxine have been developed from plants.

Indeed,Cyclosporine was developed from a fungus and has been instrumental in organ donation.

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If someone looks into lomatium and actually finds that it works then it too will be accepted into real medicine.
If the tests show that it doesn't work it will remain in what gets called "complementary medicine".

People have, it hasn't shown to be make any difference, therefore it stays as it is.

OP you're knowledge of 1918 is a little hazy, either that or you were being deliberately selective.
The Westernized treatment  we know today have all been derived, directly or indirectly from plants and nature, when stuff that is shown to work and be effective, thats called medicine. The stuff that doesn't work, or has been shown not to have any real effect, thats called complementary medicine, or maybe just plants.




Simpleton

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« Reply #15 on: 04/08/2009 21:46:09 »
Will reply again soon. Time for a break!
Thanks for spending time contributing to this topic, it's all food for thought!
PS. Think the forum is great! Well done.

Simpleton

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« Reply #16 on: 04/08/2009 21:51:37 »
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People have, it hasn't shown to be make any difference, therefore it stays as it is.
Do you have a citation for that, interesting.
PS. What is OP?
« Last Edit: 04/08/2009 21:56:48 by Simpleton »

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« Reply #17 on: 04/08/2009 21:59:24 »
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People have, it hasn't shown to be make any difference, therefore it stays as it is.
Do you have a citation for that, interesting.

http://www.evitamins.com/healthnotes.asp?ContentID=2126009

Its has a 1 star rating "For an herb, supported by traditional use but minimal or no scientific evidence. For a supplement, little scientific support and/or minimal health benefit."

"According to obscure sources, lomatium is reputed to have antiviral effects. One source suggests the constituents tetronic acids and a glucoside of luteolin may be potentially antiviral.2 However, little is known about how these compounds act or if other ones might be as important."

Thats from a site that would be biased on the side on benefit.
I could, I expect find more studies or reports.

What do you think happens? That herbs are investigated but then dismissed? Far from it. The drug companies are always looking for new plants herbs or remedies to studies and asses the structure of, and then test to see if they actually have any benefit.

OP means original post or poster.

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« Reply #18 on: 04/08/2009 22:29:02 »
Just read this article, coincides with previous comments.

A Tamiflu-resistant mutation of A(H1N1) had been found around the US-Mexico border in El Paso and close to McAllen, Texas, according to Maria Teresa Cerqueira, head of the Pan-American Health Organization office in La Jolla, California.

http://www.swineflunews.org/news/wire/hongkong/www.redorbit.com/news/health/1731942/tamifluresistant_swine_flu_cases_growing/index.html

BenV

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« Reply #19 on: 04/08/2009 22:29:53 »
The old adage that you should feed a fever...

I thought it was starve a fever, feed a cold?

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« Reply #20 on: 04/08/2009 22:33:22 »
Have removed the poll posting to focus on this, the first posting.

BenV

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« Reply #21 on: 04/08/2009 22:38:17 »
I think the general issue with considering complementary therapies is to attempt to consider the mechanism through which it works.  Setting aside placebo (which is an incredibly powerful effect), this should give you an indication of whether or not there's likely to be any as yet undiscovered physiological effect.

By this regime, herbal treatment (which may well include beneficial chemicals) shows a great deal more promise than homeopathy, and one is forced to question things like acupuncture (from what I recall, the most recent studies showed acupuncture works just as well with blunt wooden needles).

Not setting aside placebo, you're in a whole different ballpark...

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« Reply #23 on: 06/08/2009 12:49:16 »
Quote
People have, it hasn't shown to be make any difference, therefore it stays as it is.
Do you have a citation for that, interesting.

http://www.evitamins.com/healthnotes.asp?ContentID=2126009

Its has a 1 star rating "For an herb, supported by traditional use but minimal or no scientific evidence. For a supplement, little scientific support and/or minimal health benefit."

"According to obscure sources, lomatium is reputed to have antiviral effects. One source suggests the constituents tetronic acids and a glucoside of luteolin may be potentially antiviral.2 However, little is known about how these compounds act or if other ones might be as important."

Thats from a site that would be biased on the side on benefit.
I could, I expect find more studies or reports.

What do you think happens? That herbs are investigated but then dismissed? Far from it. The drug companies are always looking for new plants herbs or remedies to studies and asses the structure of, and then test to see

if they actually have any benefit.

OP means original post or poster.

Thanks for the link. Had a browse through the site and found that the only 2 star herbs useful against Influenza are Echinacea & Elderberry. Other interesting herbs I found were Andrographis paniculata, 3 stars, for use with colds, immune function and infections. To support the immune function, Asian ginseng, 2 stars.

Below is how my initial list fairs.

Garlic - http://www.evitamins.com/healthnotes.asp?ContentID=3601005
Common cold (Extract)
Herbs, such as garlic, that stimulate the immune system to fight infections are used at the onset of the common cold. In a double-blind trial, participants took one capsule per day of a placebo or a garlic supplement that contained stabilized allicin (the amount of garlic per capsule was not specified) for 12 weeks between November and February. During that time, the garlic group had 63% fewer colds and 70% fewer days ill than did the placebo group.

Vitamin C - http://www.evitamins.com/healthnotes.asp?ContentID=2929001
2 stars for Influenza and Immune function.

White Tea - http://www.evitamins.com/healthnotes.asp?ContentID=2102007
1 star for Immune function

Fern-leaved Biscuit-root (Lomatium dissectum) - http://www.evitamins.com/healthnotes.asp?ContentID=2126009
1 star for infection. In addition...
Historical or traditional use of lomatium (may or may not be supported by scientific studies)
Native Americans of many tribes reportedly used lomatium root to treat a wide variety of infections, particularly those affecting the lungs.1 Lomatium was used, particularly in the southwestern United States, during the influenza pandemic of 1917 with reportedly good results.

Betulinic Acid - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VSC-48XH7DRD&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4eff94f6a91fe083eda8a9cdb8e8875d
Abstract: Antiviral properties of betulin, betulinic and betulonic acids were investigated in cell cultures infected with herpes simplex type I, influenza FPV/Rostock and ECHO 6 viruses. All studied triterpenes were active against herpes simplex virus. Betulin and especially betulinic acid also suppressed ECHO 6 virus reproduction.

Elderberries - http://www.evitamins.com/healthnotes.asp?contentid=1221006
2 stars for Influenza

Goji berries - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfberry
No stars found. High in Vit C. Reportedly good to help recover after Influenza.

Icelandic angelica - http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/06/16/icelandic-angelica-prevention-for-swine-flu/
No stars. Not much info.
During the time of the Spanish influenza (1), there are accounts of Angelica archangelica being used as flu treatment in Denmark. Recent studies linking the origin of the swine flu virus to the Spanish influenza (2) of 1918 further suggest that the herb may prove to be an effective prophylactic for swine flu prevention people can use to avoid infection if the Influenza A virus becomes more severe.

Prunella vulgaris - http://www.biomedexperts.com/Abstract.bme/10588332/Isolation_and_characterization_of_an_anti-
HSV_polysaccharide_from_Prunella_vulgaris
No stars and perhaps of no use.
...but was inactive against cytomegalovirus, the human influenza virus types A and B...

Vitamin D
There is a whole discussion of this on the forum already. See...http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=21270.0

Ozone therapy - http://ozonicsint.com/articles_avian.html
No stars found. Interesting paper.

« Last Edit: 06/08/2009 12:52:58 by Simpleton »

Simpleton

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« Reply #24 on: 06/08/2009 14:32:44 »
"How difficult would it be for the medical advice to read. "drink plenty of fluids containing tincture a, b, c and stay in bed."
Quote
It would be easy; and dishonest.

Ok, your right, have to agree with you on that. For the masses, without knowledge of their current aliments, individual herbs, as tinctures, could caused complications in certain people. I am grateful for everyones comments as I have learned a great deal about this issue and the problem that could face us all, a possible Flu panademic with an increased virulent strain and little or no medical protection.

Quote
Unless there were some real evidence that a, b, and c worked. If there is, then name a, b and c; otherwise accept that you don't have much to offer.

Individually, I would personally consider a number of complementary therapies at the onset of cold and fever and with specific relationship to H1N1. Aside, for a moment, one of the current problems is identifying if you have H1N1 or just a cold or something totally else. Tamiflu, as reported, has a number of side effects and these could be avoided if a clear diagnosis could be given via a home test kit (not likely to be available). As testing has stopped or has been heavily reduced, it would be difficult to know what I had! However presuming enough of the symtoms matched, I would firstly use conventional medicine, probably Relenza, Asprin (but not for children) and complement it with, for exmaple, Lomatium dissectum, Echinacea and Andrographis together with increased intake of Fresh garlic, Ginger, Vit A, Zinc, Vit-C, in the form of elderberries, goji berries and blackcurrants.

Quote
It's fair to say that the virus may mutate and become more of a problem. It's equally likely  (statistically) that it will mutate and become less of a problem. It is in the interests of the virus (if you will forgive the anthropomorphism) to become less of a problem.

It does appeaer, from recent reports, to be mutating, also with an increased resistence to Tamifu.  Again you are right (statisitcally) and, as everyone reading, I also hope it becomes less of a problem.  From my understanding of previous outbreaks, should it become more viscious, it will happen quickly. I do not really think there will be enough time to start planning and researching and purchasing the necessary ingredients in such a scenario.  „If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.“  And great, if nothing happens, have learnt loads and simply carry on with my great life!

Quote
Why does averyone seem to fixate on the idea that "it will get worse"; it might or it might not.
True. Bad news is good news for some...

Quote
" Bet you'd consider eye of newt or tongue of bat over hula hoops! " No I wouldn't I don't believe in magic but I do believe in evidence. Food is known to help snake oil isn't.

In reality, we are not really talking about tongue of bat or eye of newt are we...were talking about such things that are, in some cases, not so far away from the medical community accepting as medicine, as descriped in the above list (and my recent post...2 stars, 3 stars etc.)

Quote
"Before they become desperate it would be nice if they had a few more realistic options, even if they have not being billion dollar tested." There are at least 3 antivirals used; one (amantidine) is a bit crap (but I'd choose it rather than eye of newt) and the third is largely being kept in reserve for exactly the reasons you talk about.


I agree would also start with the options you mentioned, but personally would not stop there...

Quote
Did you not realise that the people doing the planning can read wiki too? They have heard of resistance. Incidentally, do you know that plenty of drugs are based on botanicals?


I did realise, thankyou (Mmmm). Which is why I am considering grey borderline treatments to compliment conventional treatment...Of course there is a certain amount of risk, but the alternative looks pretty grim too..

Quote
It will be there along with things like comfrey - known as "knitbone" because of its supposed healing properties and actually found to be hepatotoxic and carcinogenic.


Dont know much about comfrey, but as I just said, the risks have to be indiviudally evaluated and on a personal basis accepted or not.

 

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