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Author Topic: What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?  (Read 46703 times)

Offline Simpleton

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #25 on: 06/08/2009 15:35:26 »
The stuff that doesn't work, or has been shown not to have any real effect, thats called complementary medicine, or maybe just plants.


Any real effect...even with some effect, perhaps it is better, for some people, than no effect at all.
 

Offline Simpleton

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #26 on: 06/08/2009 15:43:31 »
I think the general issue with considering complementary therapies is to attempt to consider the mechanism through which it works. Setting aside placebo (which is an incredibly powerful effect), this should give you an indication of whether or not there's likely to be any as yet undiscovered physiological effect. By this regime, herbal treatment (which may well include beneficial chemicals) shows a great deal more promise than homeopathy, and one is forced to question things like acupuncture (from what I recall, the most recent studies showed acupuncture works just as well with blunt wooden needles). Not setting aside placebo, you're in a whole different ballpark...

The issue of time is a main crucial factor. Perhaps in another 10 years we will know the answers we need today, but unfortunately many pontential helpful grey area treatments may not have the necessary funding or testing to provide conclusive positive or negative results. In this case it will be highly likely that the medical community will be unable to promte the possiblity of use to the masses, leaving individuals to either take the risk themselves or to avoid the risk and not take them. The scenario produces a common dilemma; to take or not to take...
 

Offline Bored chemist

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #27 on: 06/08/2009 18:35:12 »
The stuff that doesn't work, or has been shown not to have any real effect, thats called complementary medicine, or maybe just plants.


Any real effect...even with some effect, perhaps it is better, for some people, than no effect at all.
Any real effect is good- whether you consider that as a direct benefit or as an opening for the development of another drug (as with aspirin etc).
On the other hand most of these plants have no effect and are part of "alternative medicine"- or just flower arranging.

I know that some people will choose to "suplement" their conventional medicines with herbal "remedies".
Often that's just a waste of money; but it's their money so why should I care?
Well, the idea that people are being sold a bunch of pretty flowers on the  false grounds that it cures illness is straightforward fraud. It's all the worse for picking on a group who are already having a bad time becaus they are sick.

The other thing is that you really shouldn't mix drugs with other xenobiotics.

Are you aware of one noted side effect of St John's wort?

At least one woman has become pregnant as a result of the "remedy" messing with metabolism of the real (and important) drug in "the pill".
How sure are you that these "harmless herbal remedies" won't screw up the effects of really effective antivirals like tamiflu?
(I know there's room for improvement- but it does actually help).

Unless you can show that these potions are not actively counterproductive I don't think it's morrally correct to promote their use.
 

Offline Simpleton

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #28 on: 07/08/2009 11:30:54 »
The Germans make Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, VW & Audi they are world renowned for quality practices, products and innovation. The German medical industry has within its portfolio a range of tested, medically licensed herbal remedies. 

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Well, the idea that people are being sold a bunch of pretty flowers on the  false grounds that it cures illness is straightforward fraud

Perhaps a picture and some translation will help...


This medicinal tea is called Cold & Flu. PZN 3761403.

Try and follow this!
This is a combination of Holunderblüten - Sambuci flos 40 g, Lindenblüten - Tiliae flos 30g, Thymian - Thymi herba 20g, Sonstige Bestandteile: Süßholzwurzel - Liquiritiae radix 5 g, Anis - Anisi fructus 5 g.
I am sure the mixture could also be used for flower arranging, but the medical community here might frown up it!

It has a PZN number. What is a PZN number?
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmazentralnummer
"Die Pharmazentralnummer (PZN) ist ein in Deutschland bundeseinheitlicher Identifikationsschlüssel für Arzneimittel und andere Apothekenprodukte."  Sorry but Wiki has no English translation at the moment. Translated by Google.
The Pharma central number (PZN) in Germany is a federal identification key for medicines and other pharmacy products. A key word here is Arzneimittel or translated "medicine", see...
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzneimittel, then click on the English Wiki translation...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug,
Thats right!  A combination of herbs, in water, sipped is considered a form of licensed medicine. With Ryanair, your here in a hour!

In the picture above, the first graphic is of a syringe "Schulmedizin" (Conventional), underneath "Alternativmedizin" (Complementary or Alternative). The reference point is in the middle in between Conventional and Alternative, it gets the respect of the medicinal community as it considered to have medicinal properties and is tested and licensed. Perhaps it could be called "complementary". ;)

The next graphic is a picture of a pill and the word "Arznei", as we know now it means "Drug".

The last graphic is a plant, and means from plants.

It is produced until license by H&S Tee.
For 20x bags it costs 2,19 euros, thats 1.88 ukp.

That is one product from a range of perhaps 20 medicinal licensend medicinally herbal blends in Mercedes country!

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...the idea that people are being sold a bunch of pretty flowers on the  false grounds that it cures illness is straightforward fraud.

Either your lack of knowledge or experience regarding herbs and their ability to heal, is very limited, or you just want to put your head back in the sand, and hope that it will all go away.

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The other thing is that you really shouldn't mix drugs with other xenobiotics.
According to "Maria Treben: http://www.mariatrebenherbs.com/" it's fine (in most situations). A qualified herbal practitioner can advise, as is the advice given.

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Are you aware of one noted side effect of St John's wort?
Are you aware of the noted side effects of Tamiflu, Relenza et al?
Of course there are exceptions and risks that need to be considered and explained, but side effects are part of medicine.
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one woman has become pregnant as a result of the "remedy" messing with metabolism
...sounds like the start of a Daily Mirror story! Come on!

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How sure are you that these "harmless herbal remedies" won't screw up the effects of really effective antivirals like tamiflu?

The German medical community seems to think that Cold and Flu Tea (et al.) is safe and has tested benefits to help releive Flu and other ailments, who am I, a Simplton, to argue? As to whether it will alter the effects of Tamiflu, DON'T KNOW, but don't think so! And you know what mate...

If I was lying in bed with potentially only 4-5 days to live and it was possible that a blend of medicinal licensed HERBS could help me through those 5 days, I have to say, I think I would use them, wouldn't everyone? I mean if a mutated anti-viral resistant virus is going to get me anyway, then might as well go down fighting...

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Unless you can show that these potions are not actively counterproductive I don't think it's morrally correct to promote their use.
I reckon the German and Austrian medicinal & herbalist community could prove that their MEDICINE (not witch crafted potions, which time are you living in?) is not actively counter-productive...I can't personally, but I am not personally prescribing or recommending, just counter arguing.

Hope that clears up some of the myths in the UK about herbs and combining herbs for medicinal purposes.
« Last Edit: 07/08/2009 11:34:46 by Simpleton »
 

Offline BenV

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #29 on: 07/08/2009 11:44:56 »
Be careful, this thread is starting to look like spam.

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Hope that clears up some of the myths in the UK about herbs and combining herbs for medicinal purposes.
Nope.  All you've done is said that you can get herbal tea in Germany that claims to help against colds and flu.  You can get herbal tea pretty much anywhere, but that doesn't mean anything about it's effectiveness or how it interacts with other chemicals.
 

Offline Variola

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #30 on: 07/08/2009 12:17:36 »
Quote
Either your lack of knowledge or experience regarding herbs and their ability to heal, is very limited, or you just want to put your head back in the sand, and hope that it will all go away.

People have died because of alternative/eastern medicine practitioners persuading them to refuse conventional medicine. Some have often paid thousand and thousands of pounds to be treated with plants and conned into believing that it will beat their cancer.
That is plain outrageous, and I feel very strongly about it.
You are ignoring the very fact that the whole industry is unlicensed and unregulated.

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..sounds like the start of a Daily Mirror story! Come on!


The contraceptive pill packets now coming with a warning not to take St Johns wort due to the effects it has on the hormonal balance and the pill.
I have yet to see a similar warning on packets of St Johns wort.

If you want to promote the virtues of herbal remedies then go ahead, but get your facts straight first.
Also explain how these remedies can be of so much of a benefit when advice difference wildy from one practitioner to another, and how, if these things are so great, can someone set themselves up as a herbalist/homeopath with no formal training or qualifications? Oh yes I know there are some available, but people don't have to have them.Unlike doctors, microbiologists, biochemists etc who train for years only to be told by some plant lovers that they are depriving ill people and that we are all 'scared'!!
I means, FFS!  ::)


 

Offline Simpleton

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #31 on: 07/08/2009 13:09:46 »
Be careful, this thread is starting to look like spam.

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Hope that clears up some of the myths in the UK about herbs and combining herbs for medicinal purposes.
Nope.  All you've done is said that you can get herbal tea in Germany that claims to help against colds and flu.  You can get herbal tea pretty much anywhere, but that doesn't mean anything about it's effectiveness or how it interacts with other chemicals.

Spam? Thanks! Actually I would call it intelligent argument, but I am biased!
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you can get herbal tea in Germany
Quote
You are ignoring the very fact that the whole industry is unlicensed and unregulated.
I think it was more than 'herbal tea'...if you read my article, I am talking about LICENSED MEDICINAL HERBAL BLENDS with a medicinal PZN, not quite the same as a general herbal tea. As with other medicines you dont get the stamp without the testing, trials etc etc. Why is it so hard to accept that these products have been tested and have been shown to be of benefit. Its hard facts (according to the Germans)...

« Last Edit: 07/08/2009 13:32:57 by Simpleton »
 

Offline BenV

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #32 on: 07/08/2009 13:43:04 »
Spam? Thanks! Actually I would call it intelligent argument, but I am biased!

Not a compliment, I'm afraid - the links to websites and detailed product details make it look like you're selling things.
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #33 on: 07/08/2009 13:54:54 »
Spam? Thanks! Actually I would call it intelligent argument, but I am biased!

Not a compliment, I'm afraid - the links to websites and detailed product details make it look like you're selling things.

Indeed. Why else would the poster persist in trying to push the alternative remedy when the original post was apparently a curious one?
 

Offline Simpleton

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« Reply #34 on: 07/08/2009 14:07:21 »
Either your lack of knowledge or experience regarding herbs and their ability to heal, is very limited, or you just want to put your head back in the sand, and hope that it will all go away.

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People have died because of alternative/eastern medicine practitioners persuading them to refuse conventional medicine. Some have often paid thousand and thousands of pounds to be treated with plants and conned into believing that it will beat their cancer.
That is plain outrageous, and I feel very strongly about it.
You are ignoring the very fact that the whole industry is unlicensed and unregulated.

I have never put conventional medicine down. I support conventional medicine. There I have said it, again. I have spent most of time on this post defending complimentary medicine, not attacking conventional medicine. Do you really want to talk about how many peoples lives have been adversely affect from conventional medicinal mistakes. I don't think we want to go there... But yes people will have died in the pursuit to help others. That's true. Every death is sad, regardless of their chosen treatment.

"Unlicensed and Unregulated" in the UK perhaps. Not in Germany & Austria.
If I interprit your meaning, it would seem that you are saying that licensed German medicinal herbal blends are also not worth the paper they are packed in... Isn't that just a little bit arrogant...perhaps...

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..sounds like the start of a Daily Mirror story! Come on!


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The contraceptive pill packets now coming with a warning not to take St Johns wort due to the effects it has on the hormonal balance and the pill.
I have yet to see a similar warning on packets of St Johns wort.

Totally agree. Think that it should be contained on all packings in big bold letters, if that is now fact, and in time, I am sure it will be included and revised, the sooner the better. For all the other people on the planet who are not using the pill, St.Johns Wort has been shown to have medicinal benefits for a variety of ailments.

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If you want to promote the virtues of herbal remedies then go ahead, but get your facts straight first.
Also explain how these remedies can be of so much of a benefit when advice difference wildy from one practitioner to another, and how, if these things are so great, can someone set themselves up as a herbalist/homeopath with no formal training or qualifications? Oh yes I know there are some available, but people don't have to have them.Unlike doctors, microbiologists, biochemists etc who train for years only to be told by some plant lovers that they are depriving ill people and that we are all 'scared'!!
I means, FFS!  ::)

Actually what I want to say is, I feel it is OK to consider complimenting conventional medicine with herbs, plant, roots, foods or fruits supported by qualified professionals with the aim of improving medical conditions. Especially in RELATION to the current world situation with H1N1 and H5N1.

Not sure how the Herbalist/Homeopath qualification system exactly works in the UK (its a while since I lived there), but over here its a lengthy process similar to the education requirements to become a conventional doctor, depending on the field and level of study. If the UK just stamps the qualification, then I think a review of the system needs to happen. That is very wrong.

As someone earlier said, many medicines do derive from plants. So I guess in a way even the hard-line extremists are plant lovers too.
« Last Edit: 07/08/2009 14:21:14 by Simpleton »
 

Offline Simpleton

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #35 on: 07/08/2009 14:10:59 »
Spam? Thanks! Actually I would call it intelligent argument, but I am biased!

Not a compliment, I'm afraid - the links to websites and detailed product details make it look like you're selling things.

NOT SELLING ANYTHING - No connection to any products, no commissions, just using to illustrate a point. What more can I say. In Germany I think there are 4 or 5 companies who have license to produce such blends, I chose this one at random.
 

Offline Simpleton

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #36 on: 07/08/2009 14:16:42 »
Spam? Thanks! Actually I would call it intelligent argument, but I am biased!

Not a compliment, I'm afraid - the links to websites and detailed product details make it look like you're selling things.

Indeed. Why else would the poster persist in trying to push the alternative remedy when the original post was apparently a curious one?

The original post wanted and still wants help to develop a personal complimentary first aid kit (to include conventional medicine) to help against a potential mutated form of flu that may be arriving here, where I live, in the coming months. I personally think that is a good reason to ask Cambridge University scientific/medical forum members for their opinion. No-one until this point has anything good to say about herbs, roots, fruits etc. Shame really, as there really are some very intelligent people commenting within this forum. Perhaps I came through the wrong door... Left - Conventional medicine, Right - All others...

Also just noticed. I did NOT include any link to any website selling anything, only links to Wiki. Hope you are all satisfied on that point now.
« Last Edit: 07/08/2009 14:24:34 by Simpleton »
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #37 on: 07/08/2009 14:30:13 »
No-one until this point has anything good to say about herbs, roots, fruits etc. Shame really, as there really are some very intelligent people commenting within this forum. Perhaps I came through the wrong door... Left - Conventional medicine, Right - All others...
I wouldn't say that's true - we've acknowledged that many conventional medicines are derived from botanicals, but expressed a healthy concern as to the promotion of unquantified, untested (officially) 'folk' remedies.

I'm not sure how these things are promoted in Germany - maybe that's the root of our concern - I've seen herbal teas advertised as a cure for HIV/AIDS, and that's very worrying.

I'd be interested to hear more about the regulation of the industry in Germany - do you know what one would have to do to get a PZN number for a product?  What are the regulations on complementary therapies there?  What tests do they need to pass? What qualifications does one need to be a therapist?

I'm a little confused by the way you mention homeopathy/homeopaths alongside herbalism - surely they're an entirely different kettle of fish?
 

Offline Simpleton

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« Reply #38 on: 07/08/2009 14:48:20 »
No-one until this point has anything good to say about herbs, roots, fruits etc. Shame really, as there really are some very intelligent people commenting within this forum. Perhaps I came through the wrong door... Left - Conventional medicine, Right - All others...

Quote
I wouldn't say that's true - we've acknowledged that many conventional medicines are derived from botanicals, but expressed a healthy concern as to the promotion of unquantified, untested (officially) 'folk' remedies.

Potions, folk remedies and so the adjectives go on throughout the comments. In General it has been a hard battle staying on my original theme...I think also there is a need for a health concern. That is why I am asking you (the forum).

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I'm not sure how these things are promoted in Germany - maybe that's the root of our concern - I've seen herbal teas advertised as a cure for HIV/AIDS, and that's very worrying.

They are not really promoted as such, especially not on TV, they are just available, have been for a long time. They are available from chemists and specialised licensed distributors. Of course in every industry, especially health, you get rogues saying everything will work just to sell the product, that is very wrong and dangerous. This is not the same. This is the republic of Germany standing there saying we consider this blend of medicinal herbs to be of benefit and we will even licence according to conventional medicine testing, therefore they get the PZN.

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I'd be interested to hear more about the regulation of the industry in Germany - do you know what one would have to do to get a PZN number for a product?  What are the regulations on complementary therapies there?  What tests do they need to pass? What qualifications does one need to be a therapist?

I did do some research on this some years ago. Will take a bit of time to dig out, but let me have look. It is an interesting subject, the differences between the UK & the German systems.

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I'm a little confused by the way you mention homeopathy/homeopaths alongside herbalism - surely they're an entirely different kettle of fish?

I did not put those two together, I lifted it from a comment. It was a quote from Variola Today at 12:17:36...

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...can someone set themselves up as a herbalist/homeopath with no formal training or qualifications?
« Last Edit: 07/08/2009 14:52:05 by Simpleton »
 

Offline Simpleton

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« Reply #39 on: 07/08/2009 15:08:31 »
To BenV...

PZN. The Wiki article contains good info, only German though. Lifted and translated with Google, got the basic jist. Also PDF's to read/translate. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmazentralnummer. This is a document detailing how to use PZN.

http://www.ifaffm.de/ - worth a study. (Translated by Google)
"We are information providers for the pharmaceutical market. We produce information with economic and legal information on nationwide products available in pharmacies.

With us you are right ...
... if you are a manufacturer or distributor of goods through pharmacies or the pharmaceutical wholesale sell or want to sell.
... If you are pharmaceutical wholesalers.
... if you have data on other drugs, dressings or other pharmaceutical products need or as a software provider to resell"

http://www.ifaffm.de/leistungen/_index.html (Translated by Google)
"Conditions for the inclusion of Article Data
in the IFA Information
The IFA will be information for a particular target market in the pharmaceutical and healthcare created: pharmacies, pharmaceutical wholesalers, doctors, health insurance, etc. The articles and their suppliers are therefore specific to the needs of this group corresponding user requirements. This will ensure that all legal conditions for the placing of the articles are given. There are also requirements for the identification and relevance of the article.

Contract with the IFA GmbH - Initial condition for the reception of data is an article about our service contract maintenance and publication of product data.

Distribution Rights - The provider has all the legal and factual conditions for the placing of his name registered under Article fulfill.

Apothekenüblichkeit - only medicines and other pharmaceutical products pursuant to Section 25 of Pharmacy rules. In doubtful cases, the proof of Apothekenüblichkeit through a legally binding opinion of the competent supervisory authorities will be required.

Marketability - all items must be fully negotiable. Medicines and medical devices must be either under law or medicine Medical Act authorized or the authorization of his obligation. Non-medicinal products such as cosmetics, dietary products, food supplements, etc. are subject to legal regulations on transport capacity.

Finished Products - The articles must be finished products and the product name and package size can be clearly identified without additional information such as custom sizes, or sizes, recipe information, etc. are required.

Consumer Units - In the IFA-only database of consumer units, ie forms of trade, without Auseinzeln be sold to consumers can be.

Exclusion criteria for articles
- Non-pharmaceutical products.
- Not generally negotiable item. Medicines in accordance with section 73 AMG imported.
- Level, individual and custom-made products and other items that are not finished products.
- Container shipping units, etc., which are not consumer units.
- Articles that are already in the IFA database are not multiple choice."
 

Offline Simpleton

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Offline Bored chemist

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #41 on: 08/08/2009 16:10:47 »


Either your lack of knowledge or experience regarding herbs and their ability to heal, is very limited, or you just want to put your head back in the sand, and hope that it will all go away.


 
Quote
one woman has become pregnant as a result of the "remedy" messing with metabolism
...sounds like the start of a Daily Mirror story! Come on!



Let me get this stright; you are not aware of the hazardous effect of one of the most widely used herbal medicines yet you accuse me of ignorance or sticking my head in the sand.


Do you want to think a bit harder about that?
 

Offline Simpleton

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« Reply #42 on: 08/08/2009 21:47:28 »
Ahh, the bored chemist, I missed your comments...

I thought a bit harder about it, really I did..................but it did not help.

I then checked Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_John's_wort), funnily enough, they did not mention anything under "Adverse effects and drug interactions" about this ONE person on the pill having a reaction to St.Johns Wort, perhaps Wiki should also think a bit harder about that. 

I accept, I personally did not know this (recent) information (burn me at the stake why don't you)... and as I clearly stated in a previous posting, it is wrong and should be changed as soon as possible.

In my defence, I am not a herbalist, I am not a doctor (or a smart-arsed "bored chemist"), I am a Simpleton looking for a way to protect myself and family in a time when then world is searching beyond conventional medicine for complimentary solutions to a problem that conventional medicine has 3 solutions (one of which is a bit CRAP) -
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There are at least 3 antivirals used; one (amantidine) is a bit crap
,one drug is almost virus resistant, and the final one, who knows it's fate...

Is it really a wonder there are people like me asking for HELP?

Actually, what is more of a wonder to me, is that there are people, like you, looking to criticise, ridicule and add worthless petty argument to such an important topic, in order to satisfy some apparent intrinsic desire to appear worthy and intelligent before peers and onlookers...get a grip mate, its not clever and you ain't gonna win any new friends.

I mean lets look at it in a basic, honest way... what is the advice from the highest sources of medical knowledge in the UK?  The medical community says... stay in bed, take an asprin or 2, drink fluids and take a drug that is, by the day becoming less and less effective AND has unknown long-term side effects. GREAT! With the final advise being...Sorry everyone, that's it, we can't advise further and remember, please don't visit your doctor, unless you stop breathing, then call 999. Finally, don't forget, if you or your family members die, we really did give it our best shot and advised you on all the possible remedies, honestly.

Tut-tut.
« Last Edit: 08/08/2009 21:49:28 by Simpleton »
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #43 on: 08/08/2009 23:12:39 »
Interesting related article out of India today.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/18514/homeopathy-can-prevent-cure-swine.html

I think you missed an enormous point in that article - It's even given in the headline

"Homeopathy can prevent, cure swine flu, say homeopaths"

As far as I am aware, there is no evidence that homeopathy works any better than placebo.  Furthermore, there's no reasonable mechanism through which it can work.  I'd stick to the herbs if I were you.

As we may have mentioned before, if it works for an individual, great - but promoting a product like this (and the alternative health industry is an enormous profit making industry) is risky.  Should someone decide to opt for homeopathic treatment rather than conventional treatment, the homeopaths could have blood on their hands.

I understand entirely that you are talking about complementary therapies being used in conjunction with conventional therapies - the problem is that some people will assess risks based on newspaper articles like this one.
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #44 on: 08/08/2009 23:20:31 »
I mean lets look at it in a basic, honest way... what is the advice from the highest sources of medical knowledge in the UK?  The medical community says... stay in bed, take an asprin or 2, drink fluids and take a drug that is, by the day becoming less and less effective AND has unknown long-term side effects. GREAT! With the final advise being...Sorry everyone, that's it, we can't advise further and remember, please don't visit your doctor, unless you stop breathing, then call 999. Finally, don't forget, if you or your family members die, we really did give it our best shot and advised you on all the possible remedies, honestly.

Tut-tut.

I don't think you've been reading what we've said.  It is highly irresponsible for the medical community to recommend something that there is no evidence for.  It's even more irresponsible to sell a product claiming it will do things for which there is no evidence.

How would you feel if your doctor prescribes you sugar pills?  By promoting untested therapies, that's precisely what they're doing.  Plus, the herbal concoctions also have unknown long term side effects.

What this boils down to is chemicals.  Doctors advise on the chemicals which have been tested and shown to work.  Herbal remedies contain a vast number of chemicals, some may help, some may do nothing, some may be harmful.

If you want to take complementary medicines, go ahead!  But why do you feel it's the medical industry's responsibility to advise others to do so?

 

Offline BenV

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #45 on: 08/08/2009 23:22:54 »
Actually, what is more of a wonder to me, is that there are people, like you, looking to criticise, ridicule and add worthless petty argument to such an important topic, in order to satisfy some apparent intrinsic desire to appear worthy and intelligent before peers and onlookers...get a grip mate, its not clever and you ain't gonna win any new friends.

And finally, with my moderators hat on - please do not be so rude about other forum members.
 

Offline Simpleton

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #46 on: 09/08/2009 08:25:48 »
Hi BenV,

Will add replies to your comments shortly.

Also, apologies for losing my temper with another forum member.
Will try to bite my tongue in the future and be less descriptive.

Regards
Simpleton
 

Offline Simpleton

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #47 on: 09/08/2009 08:44:50 »
Have just seen a video (06.08.2009), courtesy of Reuters, discussing Chinese claims about herbal medicines in combination with conventional medicine. From a limited study, it is reported that the Chinese medicinal herb blends were as effective as Tamiflu and much cheaper!

http://info-wars.org/?p=4649

It seems to me, that resistance to complimentary medicine is not the same across the world. Why?
Either it works, has an effect, helps or it doesn't (as has been said before).
Are countries who are more in favour, hiding scientific information that could help other countries get things in better perspective? Have tests been done that others in other countries don't know about?

The Germans, with their licensed medicinal blends of herbs, the Indians using Homoeopathy, the Chinese using their combinations effectively... Who is right, who is wrong, and when can I start to confidently build my personal complementary first aid kit against the oncoming wave on Pandemic Influenza?
« Last Edit: 09/08/2009 08:47:39 by Simpleton »
 

Offline Simpleton

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #48 on: 09/08/2009 09:02:42 »
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I think you missed an enormous point in that article - It's even given in the headline

"Homeopathy can prevent, cure swine flu, say homeopaths"

Yep, that is a good point. Well spotted!

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As far as I am aware, there is no evidence that homeopathy works any better than placebo.  Furthermore, there's no reasonable mechanism through which it can work.  I'd stick to the herbs if I were you.

I don't know much about how homoeopathy works and only recently included it in posts as a result of a comment made including it with herbalism. I am more personally more interested in herbs, roots, fruits and blends of such complementary medicines.

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As we may have mentioned before, if it works for an individual, great - but promoting a product like this (and the alternative health industry is an enormous profit making industry) is risky.  Should someone decide to opt for homeopathic treatment rather than conventional treatment, the homeopaths could have blood on their hands.

I think the word 'enormous' should be referenced to the Phara industry...
I would also suggest that conventional medicine has its share of blood on its hands...

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I understand entirely that you are talking about complementary therapies being used in conjunction with conventional therapies - the problem is that some people will assess risks based on newspaper articles like this one.

So, for the sake of 'some' people, we should not even consider these possible therapies, even in this dramatic escalating situation...? Perhaps we simply need to educate the 'some' people better.

Thanks for your positive approach to my comments, it is appreciated.
 

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #49 on: 09/08/2009 09:33:15 »
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I don't think you've been reading what we've said.  It is highly irresponsible for the medical community to recommend something that there is no evidence for.  It's even more irresponsible to sell a product claiming it will do things for which there is no evidence.

Oh, I have been reading very carefully what has been said (from the WE?). I would agree it would be highly irresponsible for the medical community to recommend something that there is no evidence for, further-more I agree it is even more irresponsible to sell a product claiming it will do things for which there is no evidence. Shameful, in-fact. 

But there is evidence, there have been trials, testing has been observed for 1000's of years, benefits are known, patients have been helped, its not all rogues and villains on the other side. Civilisations differ around the world. they have different opinions to you (WE). Perhaps it is more of a case that here is not really the right place to be discussing such controversial subjects? I can understand that.

I seem to have landed in a big UK grey area. I want Relenza in my first aid kit, but I want some herbs, tinctures and fruits too. That is causing the problem (not for me personally), but for openly saying it here. I cannot really imagine that someone on this forum is going to say... I  would advise, this, this, this and this from the complementary medicine range... From the onset take this in conjunction with this, monitor this, after day 2, increase to this and reduce this... etc. etc. Bit frustrating, but at the same time I am learning a lot, so it has it's benefits, I hope for others too.

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How would you feel if your doctor prescribes you sugar pills?  By promoting untested therapies, that's precisely what they're doing.  Plus, the herbal concoctions also have unknown long term side effects.

Aside, My daughter has received, when ill, sugar pills with drops of medicine from her local doctor (in Germany) since being here. (Globuli; http://www.globuli.de/). Conventional medicine's long term side effects are also renowned! But it's another long story!

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What this boils down to is chemicals.  Doctors advise on the chemicals which have been tested and shown to work.  Herbal remedies contain a vast number of chemicals, some may help, some may do nothing, some may be harmful.

This makes sense. Thanks.
Only that some herbal remedies, without specific scientific testing, or testing that does not comply to western medicine, or unknown testing, do work in practice. As a result the grey area of medicine exists.

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If you want to take complementary medicines, go ahead!  But why do you feel it's the medical industry's responsibility to advise others to do so?

Normally, I would not stick my neck out so far, really, but if the current flu situation follows any of its historical ancestors, then I feel it is the medical industries responsibility to merge its hard line approach and help in the quest to support immune systems before it becomes a real disaster.  AND... what better opportunity to test out a variety of approaches on a world wide population in the midst of a pandemic; its like, the test of all tests.
 

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What complementary remedies are there for H1N1 Influenza?
« Reply #49 on: 09/08/2009 09:33:15 »

 

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