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Offline neilep

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« on: 22/08/2009 12:16:40 »
Dearest hypnotisationologists,

As a sheepy I of course am not susceptible to hypnotisation....despite numerous attempts by a ginormous pair of eyes:




A ginormous pair of eyes attempting to hypnotise earlier today !


see ?..I can tell ewe it's becoming a real nuisance !  my sheepy pals are really getting pissed off...every morning this happens !





I'd like to know if EWE have been hypnotised ?...tell me your experience .

...and I'd like to know the nature of being hypnotised ? ....The reason why I ask is because I wonder if there is a correlation in my mind state and hypnotisation when events on the radio  make it into my dream world. I always sleep with the radio on....and it's those moments just before I wake that I am conscious that what I am listening too is directing my dream !  Is this state similar to the suggestive state of being hypnotised ?..or is it like a lucid dream ?..I've had two of those before !


whajafink?


hugs & shmishes


mwah mwah mwah !



neil
When ewe finish reading this post ewe'll feel quite happy to send me funds
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx





« Last Edit: 23/08/2009 12:05:46 by chris »


 

Offline wanhafizi

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Re: What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #1 on: 22/08/2009 17:45:24 »
I'm sorry neilep.

Our current psychology science is still lacking in explaining the complexities of the mind. There's still no agreeable definition of hypnosis until this time.

Although, you can observe works being done in NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) to further expand your understanding of this topic. Richard Bandler (NLP Founder) didn't claim to understand what is exactly happening in our heads, but he found beautiful things which works without the need to dissect every inch of the brain cell.

His works helps people with multitudes of mental problem from phobias to insomnia in a surprisingly short time. Derren Brown, a renown mentalists (mind magician) performed his mind blowing performance with the help of this technology.
 

Offline glovesforfoxes

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Re: What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #2 on: 22/08/2009 18:46:17 »
i dislike NLP. neurolinguistic programming.. it's pretty much pseudoscience as far as i'm aware. the conclusions of the research that has been done into using the scientific method is not flattering of it. derren brown might be using NLP, but really, i would say his work is much more grounded in psychology. of course to a lay person it sounds much more complicated (and therefore impressive) to say that he is using neurolinguistic programming than "mere psychology" - which he is free to do, as free as he is to say he was taught these techniques by a tribe of wise elephants residing in the himalayas.

there has been some truly scientific, academic research into hypnosis. it's definitely not what you used to see in magic shows, with people acting like chickens all over the show. it's more for medicinal purposes.. there are reports of subjects going through otherwise painful surgery using only hypnosis through the past 2 centuries - http://www.institute-shot.com/hypnosis_pain_utility.htm

there is debate going on between whether or not hypnosis is a "state" or whether it is social enactment, and this debate has been going on for quite a while, around 30 years i think. people do not become unconscious, asleep (though they may fall asleep while under hypnosis, they are no longer hypotised!) unaware of their surroundings or in any way under the complete control of the hypnotist, not ever, despite what some lawsuits might claim. under hypnosis people are still under control of their own bodies and minds - it would be impossible to make a person strip, for example, if they really didn't want to. whether or not hypnotism is an actual state is more of an academic argument than a practical one.

i have been hypnotised as part of a group, and i guess while experience may vary, i found it to be akin to being in a warm bath with your eyes closed and your mind empty - except that someone is instructing you! i would say it is a kind of suspension of control (which psychologists call suggestibility), which is giving over your mind to the other person and letting them instruct you on what to think of or do. again, i must make clear though, this can never be used against the wishes of the hypnotised, because they are still under control, they are just allowing the hypnotist to direct them in the same way that a person driving a car might stop and ask for directions, except much more therapeutically :P. i would also say it's comparable to the experience of meditation.

psychologists know very little about sleep, dreaming and lucid dreaming compared to the processes that happen during the waking hours. sleep and dreaming always seem to be beyond the reach of psychology. we know what happens without sleep using case studies - hallucinations, microsleep, inability to pay attention, mood swings, problems with working memory. what happens without dreams is a mystery of course, because nobody can stop people dreaming without also stopping them sleeping! it's possible that the hallucinations suffered due to lack of sleep are the brains way of compensating without REM (which seems to be the regenerative and most necessary stage of sleep).

to answer your specific question about lucid dreaming and hypnosis. i think lucid dreaming and hypnosis are two very seperate processes, but there may be some overlap in the usage of areas of the brain in both lucid dreaming and hypnosis as they both require some degree of mental direction and control, but this is just my own musing. to be sure you had a lucid dream - were you aware that you were dreaming while asleep, and controlled the plot of the dream? that is a true lucid dream - knowing you dreaming isn't enough for something to be a lucid dream. psychologists have influenced dreams by using external stimuli on sleeping participants, like flicking small amounts of water at their face - participants reported at a much higher rate than a control group that they dreamed of water. the same sort of thing is likely to be happening with your radio.

if you have any questions or want me to clear anything up/rephrase, feel free, this is an area of psychology i love :)

 

Offline neilep

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Re: What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #3 on: 23/08/2009 10:59:13 »
I'm sorry neilep.

Our current psychology science is still lacking in explaining the complexities of the mind. There's still no agreeable definition of hypnosis until this time.

Although, you can observe works being done in NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) to further expand your understanding of this topic. Richard Bandler (NLP Founder) didn't claim to understand what is exactly happening in our heads, but he found beautiful things which works without the need to dissect every inch of the brain cell.

His works helps people with multitudes of mental problem from phobias to insomnia in a surprisingly short time. Derren Brown, a renown mentalists (mind magician) performed his mind blowing performance with the help of this technology.

Thank you very much wanhafizi  Clearly I need further investigation into this and maybe NLP is a good place to start, despite it potentially being a contentious issue as to whether it's a bona fide science or not.  Thank you very much
 

Offline neilep

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Re: What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #4 on: 23/08/2009 11:14:22 »
i dislike NLP. neurolinguistic programming.. it's pretty much pseudoscience as far as i'm aware. the conclusions of the research that has been done into using the scientific method is not flattering of it. derren brown might be using NLP, but really, i would say his work is much more grounded in psychology. of course to a lay person it sounds much more complicated (and therefore impressive) to say that he is using neurolinguistic programming than "mere psychology" - which he is free to do, as free as he is to say he was taught these techniques by a tribe of wise elephants residing in the himalayas.

there has been some truly scientific, academic research into hypnosis. it's definitely not what you used to see in magic shows, with people acting like chickens all over the show. it's more for medicinal purposes.. there are reports of subjects going through otherwise painful surgery using only hypnosis through the past 2 centuries - http://www.institute-shot.com/hypnosis_pain_utility.htm

there is debate going on between whether or not hypnosis is a "state" or whether it is social enactment, and this debate has been going on for quite a while, around 30 years i think. people do not become unconscious, asleep (though they may fall asleep while under hypnosis, they are no longer hypotised!) unaware of their surroundings or in any way under the complete control of the hypnotist, not ever, despite what some lawsuits might claim. under hypnosis people are still under control of their own bodies and minds - it would be impossible to make a person strip, for example, if they really didn't want to. whether or not hypnotism is an actual state is more of an academic argument than a practical one.

i have been hypnotised as part of a group, and i guess while experience may vary, i found it to be akin to being in a warm bath with your eyes closed and your mind empty - except that someone is instructing you! i would say it is a kind of suspension of control (which psychologists call suggestibility), which is giving over your mind to the other person and letting them instruct you on what to think of or do. again, i must make clear though, this can never be used against the wishes of the hypnotised, because they are still under control, they are just allowing the hypnotist to direct them in the same way that a person driving a car might stop and ask for directions, except much more therapeutically :P. i would also say it's comparable to the experience of meditation.

psychologists know very little about sleep, dreaming and lucid dreaming compared to the processes that happen during the waking hours. sleep and dreaming always seem to be beyond the reach of psychology. we know what happens without sleep using case studies - hallucinations, microsleep, inability to pay attention, mood swings, problems with working memory. what happens without dreams is a mystery of course, because nobody can stop people dreaming without also stopping them sleeping! it's possible that the hallucinations suffered due to lack of sleep are the brains way of compensating without REM (which seems to be the regenerative and most necessary stage of sleep).

to answer your specific question about lucid dreaming and hypnosis. i think lucid dreaming and hypnosis are two very seperate processes, but there may be some overlap in the usage of areas of the brain in both lucid dreaming and hypnosis as they both require some degree of mental direction and control, but this is just my own musing. to be sure you had a lucid dream - were you aware that you were dreaming while asleep, and controlled the plot of the dream? that is a true lucid dream - knowing you dreaming isn't enough for something to be a lucid dream. psychologists have influenced dreams by using external stimuli on sleeping participants, like flicking small amounts of water at their face - participants reported at a much higher rate than a control group that they dreamed of water. the same sort of thing is likely to be happening with your radio.

if you have any questions or want me to clear anything up/rephrase, feel free, this is an area of psychology i love :)



Thank you Glovesforfoxes for your concise and informative reply.

Yes, I too have seen pictures of conscious people having surgery performed on them with no apparent use of anaesthesia whilst hypnotised.

Very interesting to hear your recollection of being hypnotised. So, even though your mind is open to suggestion it's not completely a blank canvas if you have a defence mechanism which has ultimate control over what is being suggested. Clearly, being hypnotised only controls certain areas of the mind.

I can vouch for the little known aspects of sleep. Having been the sunjext of many studies on many occasions through out my life.




Yes, these were two very specific lucid dreams where I had control of myself only in the dream. I could not control the dreams outcome though but was able to control my own orientation. I could run, walk, kneel, crouch , swim and fly. I could see a place in the distance and go there. Though, I did not control the nature of the place I was visiting.

Being aware I am dreaming is virtually a daily occurrence with me and it's always during that few moments before one opens one eyes.These are most certainly not lucid. It's funny how the moment one allows external stimuli in the way of visual cues upon opening ones eyes returns consciousnous immediately (well..within a few seconds).........except sleep walking !

I agree that REM is essential...I think without REM sleep we'd all go catatonic....I think we need to dream !

Thank you again for your great information.
 

Offline RD

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Re: What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #5 on: 23/08/2009 11:29:53 »
A phenomenon where sound allegedly causes an altered metal state (including relief from pain relief and insomnia) is binaural beats ...


http://www.sleepphones.com/downloads


Quote
Binaural beats or binaural tones are auditory processing artifacts, or apparent sounds, the perception of which arises in the brain independent of physical stimuli. This effect was discovered in 1839 by Heinrich Wilhelm Dove.

The brain produces a phenomenon resulting in low-frequency pulsations in the loudness of a perceived sound when two tones at slightly different frequencies are presented separately, one to each of a subject's ears, using stereo headphones. A beating tone will be perceived, as if the two tones mixed naturally, out of the brain. The frequency of the tones must be below about 1,000 to 1,500 hertz for the beating to be heard. The difference between the two frequencies must be small (below about 30 Hz) for the effect to occur; otherwise, the two tones will be heard separately and no beat will be perceived.

Binaural beats are of interest to neurophysiologists investigating the sense of hearing. Second (and more controversially), binaural beats reportedly influence the brain in more subtle ways through the entrainment of brainwaves and can be used to produce relaxation and other health benefits such as pain relief.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats

I suppose it's a bit like the auditory equivalent of photosensitive epilepsy.

BTW# 1 this is only vaguely related with lucid dreaming and hypnagogic states

BTW #2 here are a couple of (free) ethnic sounds best appreciated when asleep ...

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=15488

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=76725

« Last Edit: 23/08/2009 12:27:07 by RD »
 

Offline glovesforfoxes

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #6 on: 23/08/2009 12:55:45 »
Thank you Glovesforfoxes for your concise and informative reply.

Yes, I too have seen pictures of conscious people having surgery performed on them with no apparent use of anaesthesia whilst hypnotised.

Very interesting to hear your recollection of being hypnotised. So, even though your mind is open to suggestion it's not completely a blank canvas if you have a defence mechanism which has ultimate control over what is being suggested. Clearly, being hypnotised only controls certain areas of the mind.

I can vouch for the little known aspects of sleep. Having been the sunjext of many studies on many occasions through out my life.




Yes, these were two very specific lucid dreams where I had control of myself only in the dream. I could not control the dreams outcome though but was able to control my own orientation. I could run, walk, kneel, crouch , swim and fly. I could see a place in the distance and go there. Though, I did not control the nature of the place I was visiting.

Being aware I am dreaming is virtually a daily occurrence with me and it's always during that few moments before one opens one eyes.These are most certainly not lucid. It's funny how the moment one allows external stimuli in the way of visual cues upon opening ones eyes returns consciousnous immediately (well..within a few seconds).........except sleep walking !

I agree that REM is essential...I think without REM sleep we'd all go catatonic....I think we need to dream !

Thank you again for your great information.

no problem :D analgesia in hypnosis truly is a spectacular phenomenon. it's interesting that the placebo effect seems to enhance, or detract from the ability to be hypnotised based on a person's belief in it's efficacy.

yes.. i would say so. for me.. i just shut down all resistance, the questioning of people, asking "why?" inside my head when i was hypnotised. it's quite a nice experience. i always felt that i could start asking why if i found the suggestions questionable though :)

i'd like to do that in the service of science too.. i'd want to know the aim of the study though! haha

that sounds like a fantastic experience! i really would love to have a lucid dream. well, there is plenty of time! i came across a website that can teach you how to lucid dream, but i'm not sure of it's effectiveness.. it seemed a bit new agey, but i can dig it up if you want! i might check it out myself - it'd be valuable and interesting to be able to control your actions during a dream.
 

Offline RD

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #7 on: 23/08/2009 13:50:04 »
Just found another free source of atmospheric sounds "Teleport You"

I'm listening to this one at the moment ... http://www.teleportyou.com/index.php?/casket-island.html  (very treasure island).
 

Offline wanhafizi

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #8 on: 24/08/2009 04:10:10 »
"I like it when they fights" - R. Bandler

NLP is a very good start for personal behavioral change.

I do understand the beef between NLP and modern psychology.
The NLP founder believes that modern psychology doesn't have any definitive treatment for mental illness/problems. The only thing they do is to listen and give drugs.

Modern psychology argued that NLP doesn't have any definitive theory in what they do.
Yes, that would be true, but it works! Of course, it would be hard to put in something like this in a research or thesis, but the technique works!

How would a psychologist treat a phobic? How many hours/days/years of treatment required? NLP techniques offer you relief from your phobias within minutes!

Do you know that a good NLP practitioner can get you under a hypnosis under a minute? Traditional psychologist cannot do that.

A good collection of information can be found here;

http://selfmadevip.com/forum/neuro-linguistic-programming-nlp-f126.html
 

Offline glovesforfoxes

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #9 on: 24/08/2009 09:20:01 »
maybe the two groups have different aims: psychologists want to get people healthy, but NLP practitioners want to make people happy. what i'm really interested in is how effective the treatments are, because this translates to helping many people become healthier and/or happier in the long term. the scientific studies on NLP have not been supportive according to it's wiki page, but of course, scientists don't care for the truth. :-\

before this turns into NLP vs science, though, let's remind ourselves that the OPs question was about hypnosis.
« Last Edit: 24/08/2009 09:21:44 by glovesforfoxes »
 

Offline Pwee

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #10 on: 25/08/2009 09:42:41 »
My research area is a bit overlapping with hypnosis, but not directly, so I’m mostly familiar with the uses of hypnosis in somatic medicine. I can definitely say that there is a huge number of hard science research concerning hypnosis.

I can mention some general info:
- Hypnosis is a way to reach an altered state of consciousness in which people are more susceptible to suggestions. There are several ways to reach an altered state of consciousness other then the classic hypnosis, for example during sports, sex, dancing, listening to music etc (I think most of them involve highly focused attention). Hypnosis is used because it is a reliable way to evoke and sustain this state, and it is easy to give suggestions during it.
Hypnosis can not only be induced in a relaxing, sleep-like state, there is a so called „active-alert hypnosis” which is induced during intensive physical activity (usually the person is on a stationary bicycle).
- The person must be cooperative. In normal circumstances no one can be hypnotized who doesn't want to be hypnotized.
- The hypnotized person can make judgment of what is good or bad. You can't force an otherwise shy girl to lift her skirt above her knees in public.
- People are not equally hypnotizable. There are some hypnotizability scales that can measure this. One of them is the Stanford Hypnotic Susceptibility Scale.
If a researcher wants to measure a person's hypnotic susceptibility first he hypnotizes the person, then he gives 12 standardized suggestions to the person. The number of suggestions the person responds to "correctly" is his/her susceptibility score. For example he/she has to hold one of her arms out straight and gets the instruction to try and hold it that way, the researcher then gives suggestions that his/her arm feels heavy and no matter how hard she tries she can't hold it up like that, her arm goes lower and lower. If the person lowers her arm enough, she gets one point on the scale and so on.
- People can be in an altered state of consciousness during an illness too, and they can be highly susceptible to suggestions, so it is extremely important to use the correct words if you are a medical doctor, using positive suggestions and avoiding negative ones.

I participated in a group hypnosis too. Unfortunately it wasn't as big an experience for me as I expected it to be. It was a pleasant calm feeling being in that state, but nothing else for me (maybe I’m not that susceptible or I refused to go deep enough into it).
 

Offline wanhafizi

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #11 on: 26/08/2009 14:11:49 »
Quote
Hypnosis is a way to reach an altered state of consciousness in which people are more susceptible to suggestions. There are several ways to reach an altered state of consciousness other then the classic hypnosis, for example during sports, sex, dancing, listening to music etc (I think most of them involve highly focused attention). Hypnosis is used because it is a reliable way to evoke and sustain this state, and it is easy to give suggestions during it.

Yes, hypnosis could been also done informally. See here how Derren Brown hypnotized somebody by using NLP technique. Very interesting!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg

Quote
The hypnotized person can make judgment of what is good or bad. You can't force an otherwise shy girl to lift her skirt above her knees in public.

That's true. But sometimes, things can get more complicated than that. For example, if you made her believe that she's all alone, in her bathroom, getting ready to take a shower... Well, you'll get the idea. The same way some nut job religious leaders and politicians today asking you to kill someone or go to war because if you don't, then you might be killed instead.
 

Offline glovesforfoxes

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #12 on: 26/08/2009 16:05:00 »
Quote
That's true. But sometimes, things can get more complicated than that. For example, if you made her believe that she's all alone, in her bathroom, getting ready to take a shower... Well, you'll get the idea. The same way some nut job religious leaders and politicians today asking you to kill someone or go to war because if you don't, then you might be killed instead.

this is completely incorrect. you can't make her believe that she is in a place, but you can help her to imagine that she is, which is very different. western govts. have long since found out that you can't actually completely brainwash people in a brute force sort of way, not even using a powerful technique like hypnosis. you must do it gently, slowly, and attach strong emotions with ethereal, insubstantial ideas like "good" and "evil" and "freedom". similarly, if you want to use religion as a tool, you need to provide emotional shelter. both use the human tendency of forming in groups and out groups and maximise the differences between the two in order to generate hatred and fear toward group x.

recently it has been done by the US, but it has been done by many, many civilisations in the past and no doubt will be in the future by many more. i think the best defense against this as an individual is so try to generate compassion for all human beings by recognising they are essentially the same as you - they want food, a future, happiness, shelter, and comfort. in this way people will find it much harder to create out groups, to manipulate you into causing harm to others.
« Last Edit: 26/08/2009 16:10:15 by glovesforfoxes »
 

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #13 on: 26/08/2009 16:50:10 »
Look into my eyes and will reveal all.....

You are feel ing sleeeeepy

You are under my power

Now send me all your money.....

AHhhh hahahahhaaaaaaaaahhh

 

Offline wanhafizi

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #14 on: 26/08/2009 17:16:45 »
yay!
 

Offline Pwee

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #15 on: 27/08/2009 10:57:37 »

Yes, hypnosis could been also done informally. See here how Derren Brown hypnotized somebody by using NLP technique. Very interesting!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg

I'm not an NLP fan either. I think it is clever applied psychology with lots of mystification and secrecy, and lots of money around it. And where lots of money is at stake sometimes science is not welcomed. I can't help comparing it to Scientology. Despite being applied psychology, NLP tries to discriminate itself from psychology.

This video is most likely staged, and I think this kind of effect is only reachable in 1 out of 100 or 1000 cases (I'm not blaming them for staging it, having to wait 100 cases just to demonstrate a simple technique would be a terrible waste of money and time). It needs a highly susceptible person and lots of other factors to be perfectly aligned. And even then, imprinting BMX letter by letter seems almost impossible for me.

Quote
Quote
That's true. But sometimes, things can get more complicated than that. For example, if you made her believe that she's all alone, in her bathroom, getting ready to take a shower... Well, you'll get the idea. The same way some nut job religious leaders and politicians today asking you to kill someone or go to war because if you don't, then you might be killed instead.

this is completely incorrect. you can't make her believe that she is in a place, but you can help her to imagine that she is, which is very different.

I would pick an answer somewhere in between. With enough time and effort, almost anything can be suggested to a sufficiently susceptible person. But it would take many hypnosis sessions, and strong trust in the hypnotisour to make him/her do or believe extreme things like that.
 

Offline wanhafizi

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #16 on: 28/08/2009 08:39:49 »
Quote
And where lots of money is at stake sometimes science is not welcomed.

If you are an IT savvy like me, you'll find it's all free, all over the internet.

Quote
This video is most likely staged, and I think this kind of effect is only reachable in 1 out of 100 or 1000 cases (I'm not blaming them for staging it, having to wait 100 cases just to demonstrate a simple technique would be a terrible waste of money and time). It needs a highly susceptible person and lots of other factors to be perfectly aligned. And even then, imprinting BMX letter by letter seems almost impossible for me.

Yes, it is all impossible if you still viewing this topic from the eye of modern psychology. How long would they take to hypnotize somebody again? Just Google for "Rapid Hypnosis Induction", and you'll see the difference.

It's up to you to decide.
 

Offline Pwee

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #17 on: 28/08/2009 11:18:00 »
I've seen several classical hypnosis inductions in seconds (without nlp). I've no problem with the speed.
The problem is that they want to set it up like the thing in the video is an everyday thing, like it could happen to anybody anytime. But this is not the case. There is only a handful of people who are susceptible to the "brainwashing" seen on the video in 2-3 minutes.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think NLP is a humbug. It has a great potential and has good uses, but why do they have to exaggerate and mystify their "power"? They like to keep a distance from controlled scientific trials too. Why is that?

A classic anecdote among hypnostisours is that anybody can be hypnotized. That may be true, but not any stranger who walks into the room (even with a little resistance) can be told that instead a leather jacket he WANTS a BMX bike from the bottom of his heart since his childhood.
It's just an overexageration.

NLP is an expensive technique (at least in my country) you have to pay a steep price to be trained properly in it or for a thearpy session. I'm not talking about some internet lectures or entertaining videos here, where you can get the idea from or learn some neet tricks.

(I'm trying to remain on-topic here mentioning related info to hypnosis, but I don't know how flexible is this forum concerning the range of a discussion. Should we create another thread for this?)
« Last Edit: 28/08/2009 11:20:15 by Pwee »
 

Offline glovesforfoxes

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #18 on: 28/08/2009 12:43:57 »
Quote from: wanhafazi
Yes, it is all impossible if you still viewing this topic from the eye of modern psychology. How long would they take to hypnotize somebody again? Just Google for "Rapid Hypnosis Induction", and you'll see the difference.

It's up to you to decide.

it's also up to us to decide if we want something that has been thoroughly, rigorously tested in a meaningful way that has been shown to work. it's not about speed, it's about whether it works as it claims. i don't care about any advantage or disadvantage of NLP very much if they refuse to let their claims be tested under scientific conditions, much the same reason that i don't believe in magic. and they do refuse.
 

Offline wanhafizi

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #19 on: 29/08/2009 10:26:16 »
To scientific community, the problem with NLP is that it lacks of theories.

NLP is based on the idea of behavior modeling, not theories. For example, find out phobics who got rid of their problems. Find out what was the exact things that they did the day they cured themselves. Compare it with groups of people who had the same problems, then you'll find yourself a model in curing phobics. That's it.

There's no theories, just models!

That's why is hard for psychology scientists to swallow the idea, but the most important thing is, it works!

The same way, a chemists have a very good understanding of chemical reactions, but it doesn't mean that they can defeat a chef in a cooking competition. That's the way I see it.
 

Offline Pwee

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #20 on: 29/08/2009 12:19:58 »
There is a theory behind NLP. It's called classical and behavioral conditioning. One of the most reliable and most well described psychological phenomenon out there. There is a pinch of positive suggestions in it too. I think NLP practitioners accept and claim this too.

It may be the problem of common practitioner psychologist with NLP that there is no theory behind it (although there is), but it doesn't concern me. I have no problem with experience based knowledge. I don't need theories if a method is proven to be effective.
I'm a scientist, so I like to test things. I like double blind randomised controlled trials. I like scientific publications of results, I like reviews and meta-analisyses and comparisons with other therapeutic methods.
« Last Edit: 29/08/2009 12:24:50 by Pwee »
 

Offline glovesforfoxes

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #21 on: 29/08/2009 12:33:06 »
you can test whether the treatment for phobia works compared to current psychological treatment. however, if it's an art more than a science then it will be subjective.. however..

Quote from: wanhafizi
The same way, a chemists have a very good understanding of chemical reactions, but it doesn't mean that they can defeat a chef in a cooking competition. That's the way I see it.

then why are NLP advocates using scientific lingo in order to make it seem to joe public that it is scientific? the very name of it is deceptive. if it isn't science, why use a name that pretends that it is? in my opinion, it's to be attractive to people with low levels of scientific literacy and get them to pay sums of money for treatments that, to this day, just haven't been shown to work as well as or better than psychological interventions. that's not necessarily malicious - the proponents of NLP probably do believe that their treatments work. and they may. but until they understand the power of elaborate placebo (acupuncture, anyone?) they won't properly appreciate that any treatment will help some people that believe it will work overcome health problems. this is one of main points of medical studies: to determine whether or not a treatment is more effective than the placebo treatment which must be presented exactly the same way.

your analogy is false. you can say NLP is art and psychology is science. psychological theory is science, sure, to the highest degree it possibly could be a science. however psychological treatment is both an art and based on scientific testing. NLP is pure art. which means that any trust placed in NLP is based on feeling alone, as the scientific aspect of NLP is nonexistent but fabricated in order to mislead. the proponents act like they are scientific authority figures, handing down knowledge to the general public as though it has been shown to be true by anything other than anecdote and experience.
« Last Edit: 29/08/2009 12:35:32 by glovesforfoxes »
 

Offline wanhafizi

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #22 on: 30/08/2009 18:20:25 »
About the video I've linked;

I've been self-learning NLP for quite a while. I knew what he was doing even before the video replayed and explained. There are more than the words he been saying. The moment he grabbed the mans hand, he is under hypnosis already. The shoulder tappings, the abstract paintings, the big box, the red colour, all those came into play.

Quote
then why are NLP advocates using scientific lingo in order to make it seem to joe public that it is scientific? the very name of it is deceptive. if it isn't science, why use a name that pretends that it is?

That is a really judgmental statement. Why shouldn't they?

Quote
your analogy is false. you can say NLP is art and psychology is science. psychological theory is science, sure, to the highest degree it possibly could be a science.

Can we calculate love, multiply happiness, or add up hatred? I don't think we can, because those things are not SCIENTIFIC enough for us, but we feel & see it everyday. Psychologists today are forced to make their job look like science by using scientific lingo and formulas. When something worked but seems unexplainable in more scientific terms, what will they do? Psychology should be the science of the mind, so stop treating it like a chemistry set... That's why our psychology field haven't changed that much. This is where the "chemist vs chef" argument really made sense.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, so am I. I'm trying to bring more light to this discussion. Trying to open up your mind to more things then what you've been seeing. NLP is able to cure many mind illness, such as phobias. Should we reject it because it cannot be formulated in theories?

I apologise for bring up NLP into this topic. I knew that no other field would take the importance of hypnosis seriously.

I'm not going to talk more about this topic, because it seems that you've made your mind before further researching about I've said. Maybe you did researched, but to find only the viewpoint of people who despised NLP, namely psychologists.
« Last Edit: 30/08/2009 18:41:45 by wanhafizi »
 

Offline messypau

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
« Reply #23 on: 25/02/2010 12:57:08 »
Obama mainly uses conversational hypnosis techniques. What are conversational hypnosis techniques? These are the techniques that seem to be normal in the speech, but have hidden hypnosis effect to others.

What does it mean?

It means that you put others into a hypnotic trance without them knowing and make your hypnotic orders to their subconscious minds.

Obama's speech contains hypnosis techniques like hypnotic anchoring, pacing and leading, critical factor bypass and so on.

We can see these hypnose elements in all of his speeches. For example, in his speech at Denver National Convention Obama effectively uses pacing and leading technique. Here is how. He paces with phrases "that's why I stand here tonight", "now is the time" and "this moment". Obama used these statements 14 times in his one speech which is obvious use of this hypnosis technique. After the pacing is established he makes his suggestions (lead) to his audience.
« Last Edit: 25/02/2010 14:04:38 by BenV »
 

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What's the science behind hypnosis ?
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