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Author Topic: I can proove no directionality to time.  (Read 6057 times)

Offline Mr. Scientist

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I can proove no directionality to time.
« on: 15/09/2009 12:43:16 »
A Verbal Proof of No Time Directionality

To have a direction specifically we require a point, and from that point their needs to be a defined geometry. In space, we have such a point called the big bang - or the initial point in which space and time
emerged. Normally, one might calculate that this must mean there is a defined point (a center to the universe at large) - but this appears to be faulty
concerning how the universe expands. Rather in saying there is a centre to the universe, the centre exists everywhere and all at once! This means the big bang
happened everywhere [1] so that no singular centre to the universe is allowed.

But since big bang we have believed there is a ''directionality to time.'' I argue that there cannot be any directionality at all. In the essays provided, I
shown that physicists now agree that geometry of time does not really exist, there is no flow, but there are instances in which time can be seen as starts and
stops. You can think of the mind binding such instantaneous changes due to some unknown factor as of yet.

Now, there simply cannot be a direction in time. When you quantize space, remove our intellectual capacity to record events as though they are unfolding linearly,
we find that the geomtric time is not real at all, but can only exist within the fundemental description. Now what we have is one instant, an all-time period,
best explained from the essay titled ''Reviewing Time Theory and its Applications to a Model of Relative Experience (1st part of the essay)'' i have shown that it
is possible to show how the future and the past cannot be destinguishable from each other, other than saying that the past (or the beginning) is mathematically
identical to that of the future (most associated here as the end). I explained;

''The implications of a cosmological application would imply that the beginning of the universe and the end of the universe will be indiscernible too.
In fact, modern physics already agrees with this kind of approach, since the common agreement between scientists is that the end will happen in much the same way
 the beginning occurred - through the presence of some singularity''

Taking this really seriously, we must remind ourselves that there is no such thing as a past or a future time; the only time which ever manages to exist is
within strictly present time itself. This means that the past and future are really present times, or maybe better worded, have their own present times. Under
these premises, we could argue that if the past and the future are the same thing, the beginning and the end being identical, then what direction is there really?

In everyday experience, on the geometric classical scale, we observe things that seem to move in a particular direction. But what would it matter really? If the
world is cut down to the fundamental time model, and with the knowledge that big bang happened everywhere at once, then there seems to be no true direction
to the evolution of the universe. On earth, the best example of a direction is perhaps the up, down, left and right coordinates given from a geometrical
sense. But here is the rub; there is no such a direction in space.

There is no direction to time in a geometrical sense, because if it where space would also have a directionality. But since the concepts ''up'', ''down''
and ''left'' or ''right'' are non-existent in space, then time does not have a specific directionality, or at least, not the kind we have been led to believe;
one which involves a high energy physics at some past distant event. So, if it's the fundamental truths which are primal and important, but not the geometry
of macroscopic objects, then the direction from the big bang (the one which we call forward) seems proposterous. In fact, there is no physical passing of time
in the frozen state of pure gravity solutions.

So the directionality of entropy cannot be a real case. This is why the psychological arrow comes into play. We certainly observe some kind of passing of events
but it may become to be widely accepted that there may actually be no direction at all. Let's just restate the facts of why:

1) In the frozen time model, nothing changes. So directionality of time becomes obsolete.

2) If logically-speaking the past and the future don't exist and only the present time, then time cannot change from a past state to a future state.

3) If the universe can be indescernible towards its treatment of the beginning and some end to the universe, then the beginning and the end are the same, and
therefore cannot have ultimately any directionality because it really ''hasn't gone anywhere.'' It's beginning is also simultaneously its end - we just seem to drag
through this as an illusion.

4) And finally, if big bang happened everywhere, then directionality becomes harder to define because now every point on the spacetime map is just as equal as
each other. There is essentially, no specific region from which we can draw a line and call it the direction from the birth of the universe.

The only conclusion i can draw forth from here, is that directionality of the universe is not a real physical direction. Any concept of directionality must
reduce itself to being an abstraction - one that is only psychological. From these invariant relationships, any theory which entertains a physical directionality
must be thrown out the window. Strong words, i know. But i feel quite confident that only arrows can be known intuitively by the mind, or the psychology
behind the mind itself.

The age old question of why entropy was so low now becomes not so important. By removing the concept of a physical directionality, it really doesn't require any
specialized reason why the universe had/has such a low entropy in the past. More like the question now being, why does the universe appear to have a low entropy
when relative to the psychological aspects, rather than the physical. 

[1] - In fact, the big bang is still happening. It's an often misconception that the big bang was some event which ended. The big bang continues today.


 

Offline krytie75

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I can proove no directionality to time.
« Reply #1 on: 15/09/2009 14:56:32 »
Interesting.  I read your entire hypothesis, and whilst I was initialy going to dismiss it, I have given it some thought and I think I know what you're saying.  Are you saying that, whilst time appears to flow continually all the time, it is a more accurate understanding to imagine time as purely a static dimension (much like the first three), that we and everything else in our universe travels through, thus creating the illusion of the progression of time?

In other words, time has no directionality because it doesn't flow, it is merely a dimension which we continually move through, with the past being time that we already passed through, and the future being time which we are approaching?

If this is what you're saying, I think it makes a lot of sense.  Would be interested to hear your reply!

Edit - If this is the case, our progression through the dimension of time has directionality where time itself does not.
« Last Edit: 15/09/2009 14:58:26 by krytie75 »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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I can proove no directionality to time.
« Reply #2 on: 15/09/2009 19:42:46 »
If the theory makes any practical difference please send me next weeks lottery numbers.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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I can proove no directionality to time.
« Reply #3 on: 15/09/2009 22:28:26 »
Interesting.  I read your entire hypothesis, and whilst I was initialy going to dismiss it, I have given it some thought and I think I know what you're saying.  Are you saying that, whilst time appears to flow continually all the time, it is a more accurate understanding to imagine time as purely a static dimension (much like the first three), that we and everything else in our universe travels through, thus creating the illusion of the progression of time?

In other words, time has no directionality because it doesn't flow, it is merely a dimension which we continually move through, with the past being time that we already passed through, and the future being time which we are approaching?

If this is what you're saying, I think it makes a lot of sense.  Would be interested to hear your reply!

Edit - If this is the case, our progression through the dimension of time has directionality where time itself does not.
Yes indeed. This is one of the proposals. You might be interested to know that there are more arguments than just mere thoughts presented. However, in general relativity timelesness exists due to ''pure gravity solutions'' as well. If these physical solutions are true, how can a definition of any time direction be true? It can remain i have concluded purely a subjetive case.

Thanks for your time in reading it. It requires a ;ot of thought - but not too much :)
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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I can proove no directionality to time.
« Reply #4 on: 15/09/2009 22:32:59 »
If the theory makes any practical difference please send me next weeks lottery numbers.

Oh it does. It removes th physical sense to the arrow of time. I am actually surprised no scientist has made the claims i have made so far. In fact, it may have just been a matter of time.
 

Offline krytie75

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I can proove no directionality to time.
« Reply #5 on: 16/09/2009 02:09:45 »
Excellent.  What do you propose to do about it?
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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I can proove no directionality to time.
« Reply #6 on: 16/09/2009 02:46:46 »
Excellent.  What do you propose to do about it?

I am actually speaking to a scientist right now about these implications. Aparently, they seem wuite solid... what i do hope is that the phsyical side of directionalty must be removed.

Viktor
 

Offline krytie75

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I can proove no directionality to time.
« Reply #7 on: 16/09/2009 18:58:51 »
Hmm.  Are you sure this hasn't been discussed or accepted before?  It seems relatively straight forward and obvious?
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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I can proove no directionality to time.
« Reply #8 on: 18/09/2009 00:44:15 »
Hmm.  Are you sure this hasn't been discussed or accepted before?  It seems relatively straight forward and obvious?

No. It hasn't.
 

Offline Dimi

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I can proove no directionality to time.
« Reply #9 on: 18/09/2009 14:24:36 »
Time has always been a concept grasped by mankind to keep things in an orderly fashion.

Life thrives and operates on based on the sun and the moon cycle. That however isn't what we're talking about right?

It could be as simple as time never existed ~ because it is in fact only a concept, what we are going through we just labeled as time so it can give us some comfort.

However, I don't think I could survive without the concept of time :) I'm quite happy leaving it the way it is. Its nice to think about though
 

Offline yor_on

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I can proove no directionality to time.
« Reply #10 on: 04/10/2009 02:44:43 »
Not a bad idea mr S.

To me time have one arrow macroscopically inside SpaceTime.
That is what creates 'one way' causality.
QM have a 'two way arrow' that creates what I see as 'relation chains'.
That creates 'boundaried relations'

And 'pure Time' itself has all arrows there is, negating itself.
And so 'distance' is a product from our macroscopic 'one way' arrow.
And 'clocks' a direct measure of SpaceTimes causality chains valid inside, not existing outside SpaceTime.
 

Offline harryh11

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I can proove no directionality to time.
« Reply #11 on: 06/10/2009 00:25:27 »
I'm almost sure I heard something quite like this on that Horizon: Do You Know What Time It Is show.
They were talking about TIME!
And they were talking about it.
And they definitely said about us travelling through the dimension of time.
He mentioned that if we could control our direction in time, we could go back to our past and stuff.
And stuff like that.
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #12 on: 07/10/2009 21:46:57 »
Nah :)

Nice idea though.
 

Ethos

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I can proove no directionality to time.
« Reply #13 on: 07/10/2009 22:26:59 »
Not only is there no arrow of time, the notion of time is, itself, not necessary. Our state of existence is limited to the NOW. The past is history and understanding the future is only as accurate as the physical laws that govern CHANGE. Time dilation is not the manipulation for the passage of time, it is rather the change experienced by matter when subjected to acceleration. Time doesn't change, it's only the physical states we observe changing.

Time is a mythical construct........................ethos.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #14 on: 07/10/2009 23:34:40 »
Not only is there no arrow of time, the notion of time is, itself, not necessary. Our state of existence is limited to the NOW. The past is history and understanding the future is only as accurate as the physical laws that govern CHANGE. Time dilation is not the manipulation for the passage of time, it is rather the change experienced by matter when subjected to acceleration. Time doesn't change, it's only the physical states we observe changing.

Time is a mythical construct........................ethos.
Then... you agree with my analysis from a quantum point of view - which i hope satisfies any philosophical approach?
 

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« Reply #15 on: 09/10/2009 00:38:37 »
Then... you agree with my analysis from a quantum point of view - which i hope satisfies any philosophical approach?
Not only from the quantum point of view but, from any other perspective. The question of Entropy is always used in support of the arrow of time thing. This next opinion will, without doubt, raise many eyebrows here but I'll render it none the less.

Entropy is being violated every day by gravity. I realize this opinion is not commonly held. Nevertheless, I maintain that the common definition for Entropy is too broadly defined. While most ordered systems appear to be trending toward a state of disorder, I believe that this is not necessarily always the case. Even though the law of Entropy is seen as inviolate, I suggest that it is not and IMHO, may not be the absolute law we give it credit for being.....................Ethos
 

Offline purplepeace

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I can proove no directionality to time.
« Reply #16 on: 12/10/2009 22:23:11 »
I read your hypothesis with fascination.  Admittedly I know little about physics and astronomy, therefore found it a little difficult to follow, I'll have to read it several times to grasp it completely. 

As for myself I am a retired 50 year old nurse. I, like yourself, theorize that time is not linear.  In fact I have no idea what time is beyond the experience of it.  However,I believe that time as we experience it is a psychological phenomena resulting from a process within the brain. To construct reality the brain needs to sort out information and does it in a linear fashion and so we experience time that way. 

Sometimes an illness can effect the functioning of the brain and the way our brains process information.  When this happens time can be experienced in a non linear fashion.  This is what has happened to me on a number of occasions. 

I had a tumor of the adrenal gland.  The adrenal gland produces neuro transmitters used, obviously by the brain, so, I assume that my experiences were the result of my brain being unable to construct information in a linear fashion at times.

My experiences were as follows

As a young girl I lost controll of my car at high speed.  The car spun across four lanes of busy traffic ending up on the right side of the road but facing the wrong direction.  While this was happening I saw everything around me in slow motion and experienced no sense of danger at the time.  Afterwards however I was shaky and threw up. I have always assumed that time itself did not slow down and that somehow my perception of time was altered and the flight fight response kicked in causing an altered perception.

Some years before that happened I had an expedience that Years later I came to call a transcendent experience.  Again there was an altered perception of time in this experience.  I seemed to experience the complete absence of time.  Not in the same way as when people say they felt as if time had stopped.  But this was as if I was actually outside time and it didn't exist at all.  I can't explain how I experienced this but I know that I did. 

Lastly, through out my life I have had numerous psychic experiences.  I have had many, many premonitions.  Granted most of these have been irrelevant bits and pieces but some have been very, very obvious and beyond doubt a vision of future events.  I saw princes Diana's funeral about 5 or 6 years before it happened.  Most of the premonitions that I can remember have occurred during the day when I was fully awake and actively involved in doing something.  They would just suddenly occur.

What's even more puzzling is that I have had  paradoxes in time occur on rare occasion where cause and effect has been back to front.  For instance I had a premonition of somebody reading something that I wrote.  So, I wrote a description of what I saw.  It turns out that the person was reading the description I wrote because of the premonition I saw of him reading it!!!

I may not be able to explain how these experiences are possible.  But, they do suggest that the nature of time is not linear. 
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #17 on: 13/10/2009 00:37:37 »
Very interesting - thanks for sharing :)
 

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