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Author Topic: An essay in futility, too long to read :)  (Read 280073 times)

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1375 on: 01/09/2013 10:26:03 »
In a way it's similar to the question of ones 'free will'. Both rests on a idea of there being a incalculable existence of something that allows you to change your mind, with no resolution taken, before your decision materialize a 'outcome', if you see how I mean.

Let us assume that probability is a physically true definition of the state of the very small. Then use 'free will'. Does probability forbid something of a low probability to happen? And what is the difference between a probability of something on the QM plane, versus the uncertainty of ones choice, before a 'outcome'.

Free will exist, but the probability of you doing something directly counterintuitive to the society around you should be rather less than the one in where your choice reflects the 'meta stable laws', defining how your social etc surroundings expect you to behave.

If now a probability gets its definitions from immutable physical 'laws', then we should need those laws, before matter and space. If we on the other hand define it such as it is the interactions between constituents of matter and space that defines those laws? What would it then need to get it started? More or less 'laws'?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1376 on: 01/09/2013 10:36:08 »
The 'box' I'm referring to is defined by histories, statistics. Those refer to a past behavior, defining a future behavior. To be able to use statistics either demands a arrow, or a 'quantum computer'. A quantum computer, in my mind then, bearing a uncanny resemblance to all actions taken, weighting them, finding one answer as the most probabilistic, naturally also depending on the question.

Would the answer exist without the question?

 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1377 on: 01/09/2013 10:48:27 »
Is there a way to differ between 'immutable ideal physical laws' and an idea in where it will be circumstances defining the same? And if it would be circumstances defining them, what keeps them stable and 'countable'?

A arrow?

A quantum computer might be seen as containing all answers, drawn to its extreme. Those answers it contains though, must include those of low probabilities too. So, using that analogue, it looks at it all. The idea of one being possible questions what a arrow is. It also questions what a 'instant of time' is.

Assume the whole idea of a universe as being some sort of quantum computer. Would it then exist inside a arrow? What is a arrow?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1378 on: 01/09/2013 10:51:27 »
Outcomes?

What then define those outcomes?
And what allows them to be 'stringed out' in a linear procession, called a arrow.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1379 on: 01/09/2013 11:00:33 »
There is a difference to me, between 'immutable ideal physical laws' and circumstance. The first is a ideal description of 'something', existing even without a universe. The other is a description of interactions defining laws. Defining laws as following constants being set I read that as a description of certain types of interactions being more probable than others. So :) Do constants 'fall out' from interactions, or do interactions 'fall out' from constants?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1380 on: 01/09/2013 11:01:17 »
We have 'c'.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1381 on: 01/09/2013 11:06:47 »
Symmetries, that's what a quantum computer, and a universe, make me think of. A quantum computer contain a symmetry, a arrow contain symmetries. When we speak of something 'broken' though, for example, due to temperatures, creating 'emergences'. What do we need for this to exist?

A arrow? How will you get to a temperature without a arrow?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1382 on: 01/09/2013 11:10:09 »
You might see it as our whole universe should be a illusion, as it seems to me. A illusion finding its reality using a arrow.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1383 on: 01/09/2013 11:29:45 »
It is also so that even if something have a low probability it can still become a outcome. The difference between such a universe and a 'magic' though, should be that some probabilities should be nonexistent. As the one in where you defies the 'law' of gravitation, levitating. That does not state that levitating isn't possible, just that it isn't allowed in a universe defined by a arrow and ? Constants, circumstances, statistics. Crazy, isn't it :)

If we use probability to define it, then also use 'free will', consciously choosing to enact a outcome of very low probability. Is that also predestined? The mere idea, or possibility, of one choosing such a action implies free will to exist, although from thinking of it as a limiting 'box', no actions chosen gets out from it.

Then we have Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
Is that a example of 'free will'?

Uncertainty?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1384 on: 01/09/2013 11:41:27 »
Maybe it's possible to consider it both ways. Free will and uncertainty existing before the outcome. With what comes after becoming our set 'reality', histories enabling statistics. Would that make for a predestined universe? And would that make 'constants' existing ideal descriptions, defining interactions?

If it would, what is the illusion?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1385 on: 01/09/2013 11:49:39 »
It depends on from where you look at it, doesn't it? Looking back you find the 'box', but before you is uncertainty, probability, free will and indeterminacy.

Assume that in some beginning there are 'constants', defining interactions, becoming outcomes. Would you consider that the same as predestination?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1386 on: 02/09/2013 17:26:38 »
Would you understand if I'm getting tired?

I see a marvelous universe :)

It's the ultimate challenge, but do you dare to take it up?
Or do you want to be remembered as one that 'fit in'?

I don't know, life is a mystery.

Maybe fitting in is more important, for you and your descendants?

I don't know, and I'm not joking.

We got a new system, in where every step you take is survivable.

Is that what you want?

No more crazy people telling you that freedom is just one step ahead?

I don't know there either?

Wish I did.

 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1387 on: 02/09/2013 17:34:18 »
Survivable for the individual I mean.

I have this vision. Of us adapting, to some thought fitting a stagnant reality ?


It scares me.

I have kids, I want them to think by themselves

Do you?

(and yeah, this time I'm using it as a blog)

But I didn't before.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1388 on: 02/09/2013 17:56:35 »
This point is so simple that I will excuse you if you miss it.

Otherwise I expect you to use your mind.

You are born, and you die.
do you get that one?
you will die, and excepting your descendants.

what the he** is it about?
If you never asked yourself that one.

It's high time.

I want a 'reality' in where democracy, fantasy, and a bravery for loving exist.'
Or are you not able?

but for you  it is,  what you make.
It's a question of bravery, and daring.

Are you able?

You live, and you die.

What the he** did you expect?
« Last Edit: 02/09/2013 17:58:16 by yor_on »
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1389 on: 02/09/2013 18:23:46 »
I'm sorry, in some ways I'm getting slow and I hate it. I guess it's about time, but some things are still true. Love is true, what may come from it, might become a problem, but do me a favor there. Be true to truth, tell it as it is, it won't make it easier when it happens, but it will make it more hand-able when one think back. And , I don't know? I've had a lot of fun writing here. I'm proud over us all, geeks and warriors alot :) Crazy is my first name I guess?

But to face up to me, use that mind of yours, and take the consequences.
=

And as always, my spelling sux.
« Last Edit: 02/09/2013 22:51:21 by yor_on »
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1390 on: 02/09/2013 18:56:07 »
I don't know.

You will make your own choices.
It's about dreams, and daring to love.

I won't form you. It would be a disgrace to suggest anything like that.
Do it yourself, but please, use your own mind to do it, not someone else's thoughts.

Read me, but use your mind, not mine.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1391 on: 13/12/2014 21:44:42 »
Got to say.

thanks, seems I'm not the only one confused by physics. We all want to understand it, at least those of us wondering about life. Some seem to accept it at 'face value' but I don't. If you read through all this?  I don't think you did too. Good on you my friend. We live, and we die.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1392 on: 17/07/2015 20:08:47 »
Don't know what good this will do, if anything? :)

Some questions has been bothering me a lot more than physics for the last couple of years. As, where are we going? We have Global warming, we have over population. We have politicians and others lifting forward solutions as how you can compost at home. Or solutions as if we all only would turn vegetarians, or if we can't stop it by pricing CO2, 'making it affordable again', at the same time as we then redistribute some 'wealth' to poorer country's, without our energy needs, by 'buying' their unused 'rights' to pollute.

All of that are more or less futile in my eyes. But we seem to like it. Anyone recognize greed when they see it, and how it can be used to manipulate? And if you say that you don't find that sufficient, you become 'negative'. Ever heard of the emperors new clothes? Well, he's here, again, with most of us loving his new outfit.

I don't.

The problems goes together and are fairly simple to solve, that is, if we want?

One kid per person for the next two hundred years.
No more talk about selling rights to pollute.
Accept a thinner wallet.
Change your view on what 'wealth' is.
Stop polluting.

Wealth is not about getting to be the richest dead guy. Wealth is about loving, nurturing the planet, caring, and trying to gift your descendants a better place to be. Wealth is about living, and letting live. It's terribly simple, and it goes against our grain. Because we want to fight our way to it, instead of adapting. So instead of the simple solutions we try to imagine ourselves 'terraforming' this planet, or leaving it for some technological habitat in space. That won't work, we're forgetting that we already live on a 'spaceship', that have taken geological time to come to exist for us.

Anyone recognize hubris when they see it, any more?

sometimes I wonder if all this new technology just stop us from using our minds? Too much information, too many voices telling us what life is about.

One kid per person, non negotiable.
Alternative energy sources that is renewable, as far as we can make it.
Nuclear only as a last resort.
Redistribution of wealth.

It won't stop global warming, and it wont stop overpopulation, but it will give us a chance. And it's ethical.

There are other solutions, stupid ones but still. As a nuclear winter, but if you go for that, then we're talking genocides.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1393 on: 23/07/2015 20:10:12 »
It's sort of strange.

I love people that are brave. They can be female or male, some of them may hurt me, as in a relation. But I love them still. Some of them (as in something that is true) may pick five, but they still are lovable. Not in that they could do that, but in that they think, and question themselves. There is noting especially lovable to be born with quick reflexes and a ability to hate, but when you start to question yourself you make life something worth to live. Not that I find life, the way we do it, that lovable. So, you got strength and marital arts? I got a 45 and some training. You want to take it a step further? So I got a missile. etc etc etc etc ad infintum.

That's not the point of it.

Stupidity galore.

So nobody but you understand what I write?
And you know you are prepared, but when you think of those others? Those that don't get it? You know it's all BS?


I'll give you this, I don't care about those others, I care about you, and your decisions.
I want you to grow up.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1394 on: 23/07/2015 20:26:38 »
Yeah, it's not physics.
But it is about you.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1395 on: 24/07/2015 18:03:19 »
Yeah, it's not physics.
But it is about you.
Yes, it's not physics yor_on. But it's really about "US" isn't it? For every generation has witnessed the inhumanity that we humans seem to revel in. It's truly sad my friend, we all seek answers where none seem to be found. And life goes on, trouble and distress all around us and nobody with good solutions. So I intend to concentrate on my personal responsibilities and leave the other problems to the Despots which seem to always create war and famine for the rest of us. How do we stop them is the question, how do we interrupt their persistent march to the positions of power they always seem to attain?

Yes, we live and then we die. It's inevitable isn't it. But there is one note of comfort we might take from this future certainty. In death, we only return to the place from whence we came. There was most certainly a time when everyone of us did not exist and to that place we are destined to return. Nothing new under the sun my friend, it's all a great and mysterious circle.

This is of course the Secular point of view, those of religious persuasion are free to believe in their own personal convictions regarding the state of existence after death.

...........................Ethos
« Last Edit: 24/07/2015 23:33:07 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1396 on: 25/07/2015 16:47:57 »
We vote the despots in Ethos. Someone has to follow them. If absolutely no one voted or followed them their power is gone. The solution is to not vote for or follow ANYONE.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1397 on: 30/07/2015 15:20:01 »
Yes Ethos :)

Seems we're of a same mind. We go back to where we came from, what-, and where-, ever that now might be. when it comes to personal responsibilities then I think that that can be expressed many ways, depending on from where one look at it. The way we used to look at, was intimately connected to nature, aka 'hunter society's/nomads' but lately we've moved away from that idea in preference for us becoming some sort of 'crown of evolution', deciding and directing all other flora and fauna. And in doing so we succeeded in overpopulating this world, killing of fauna and flora, polluting it in so may ways. And we can't stop, because that's not 'economically sane' :)

We're interesting, in a rather sad way, but as individuals we seem to refuse to grow up. We don't want to take those stands that force us away from our 'self interests'. Only saints are expected to do so. And they never get rich, do they :)

As for what you say there Jeffrey. Maybe, maybe not. It depends on whether you agree with someone, or not, also what depth of knowledge one apply on it. Crowds can be very powerful, especially if they gained a consensus through independent thinking. But that is difficult, and can be uncomfortable.
« Last Edit: 30/07/2015 15:37:57 by yor_on »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1398 on: 30/07/2015 18:32:54 »


We're interesting, in a rather sad way, but as individuals we seem to refuse to grow up. We don't want to take those stands that force us away from our 'self interests'. Only saints are expected to do so. And they never get rich, do they :)


I've held to one particular position regarding humanity for many years now.  Whether saint or Despot, those individuals responsible for the majority of the distress created in our world today are those idiots that invest total effort in attempting to prove a point. Whether it's Communism versus Capitalism, Christianity versus Islam, Atheism versus Theism, someone is always ready to go to war to prove their way is the only way.

My way is MY BUSINESS and everyone else can choose their own. The people that insist everyone else must conform to their standards, whether they are sticking their finger in your face or a gun makes no difference, these are the people that cause all the trouble.



« Last Edit: 31/07/2015 02:40:59 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1399 on: 30/07/2015 20:07:07 »
Quote from: Ethos_
Whether saint or Despot, those individuals responsible for the majority of the distress created in our world today are those idiots that invest total effort in attempting to prove a point. Whether it's Communism versus Capitalism, Christianity versus Islam, Atheism versus Theism, someone is always ready to go to war to prove their way is the only way.
What a beautiful way to express that all to true fact. My compliments to the chef.
 

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1399 on: 30/07/2015 20:07:07 »

 

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