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Author Topic: An essay in futility, too long to read :)  (Read 280746 times)


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #25 on: 20/09/2009 17:38:46 »

According to Bohr every measuring device affects what it is used to observe. The quantum world is discrete and so there can never be absolute precision during a measurement. To know about quantum mechanics, we rely on classical devices. To Bohr this implied that the hierarchy between observer and observed had no meaning; they were nonseparable. Concepts once thought to be mutually exclusive, such as waves and particles, were also complements. The difference was only language.

By contrast Einstein was a realist who believed in a world independent of the way it is measured. During a set of conferences at the Hotel Metropole in Brussels, he and Bohr argued famously over the validity of quantum mechanics and Einstein presented a number of thought experiments intended to show the theory incorrect. But when Bohr used Einstein's own theory of relativity to evade one of these thought experiments, Einstein was so stung he never tried to disprove quantum mechanics again, though he continued to criticize it.


In 1935, from an idyllic corner of New Jersey, Einstein and two young collaborators began a different assault on quantum mechanics. Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen (EPR) did not question the theory's correctness, but rather its completeness. More than the notion that god might play dice, what most bothered Einstein were quantum mechanics' implications for reality. As Einstein prosaically inquired once of a walking companion, "Do you really believe that the moon exists only when you look at it?"

The EPR paper begins by asserting that there's a real world outside theories. "Any serious consideration of a physical theory must take into account the distinction between the objective reality, which is independent of any theory, and the physical concepts with which the theory operates." If quantum mechanics is complete, then "every element of physical reality must have a counterpart in the physical theory." EPR argued that objects must have preexisting values for measurable quantities and that this implied that certain elements of reality could not be determined by quantum mechanics.


They claim that given a specific experiment, in which the outcome of a measurement could be known before the measurement takes place, there must exist something in the real world, an "element of reality", which determines the measurement outcome. They postulate that these elements of reality are local, in the sense that they belong to a certain point in spacetime. This element may only be influenced by events which are located in the backward light cone of this point in spacetime. Even though these claims sound reasonable and convincing, they are founded on assumptions about nature which constitute what is now known as local realism.

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Einstein and his colleagues imagined two electrons that collide and fly apart. After the collision the electrons exist in a state of superposition of the possible values for their momenta. Mathematically and physically, it makes no sense to say that either electron has a definite momentum independent of the other before measurement; they are "entangled." But when one electron's momentum is measured, the value of the other's is instantly known and the superpositions collapse. Once the momentum is known for a particle, we cannot measure its position. This element of reality is denied us by the uncertainty principle. Even stranger is that this occurs even when the electrons fly vast distances apart before measurement. Quantum mechanics still describes the electrons as a single system across space. Einstein could never stomach that an experiment at one electron would instantaneously affect the other.

(Yep, that’s right, without believing in it they defined/discovered ‘entanglement’:)

In Copenhagen Bohr began an immediate response. It didn't matter if particles might affect one another over vast distances, or that particles had no observable properties before they are observed. As Bohr later said, "There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract quantum physical description." Physicists' discourse on reality began just as the world slid inexorably toward war. During WWII physicists once interested in philosophy worried about other issues. David Bohm, however, did worry. After the war Bohm was a professor at Princeton, where he wrote a famous textbook on quantum mechanics. Einstein thought it was the best presentation of quantum mechanics he had read, and when Bohm began to challenge the theory, Einstein said, "If anyone can do it, then it will be Bohm."

In 1952, during the Red Scare, Bohm moved to Brazil. There he discovered a theory in which a particle's position was determined by a "hidden variable" even when its momentum was absolutely known. To Bohm reality was important, and so to preserve it, he was willing to abandon locality and accept that entangled particles influenced one another over vast distances. However, Bohm's hidden variables theory made the same predictions as quantum mechanics, which already worked.

In America Bohm's theory was ignored. But when the Irishman John Bell read Bohm's idea, he said, "I saw the impossible done." Bell thought hidden variables might show quantum mechanics incomplete. Starting from Bohm's work, Bell derived another kind of hidden variables theory that could make predictions different from those of quantum mechanics. The theories could be tested against one another in an EPR-type experiment. But Bell made two assumptions that quantum mechanics does not; the world is local (no distant influences) and real (preexisting properties). If quantum mechanics were correct, one or both of these assumptions were false, though Bell's theorem could not determine which.

Bell's work on local hidden variables theory stirred little interest until the 1970s, when groups lead by John Clauser, Abner Shimony, and others devised experimental schemes in which the idea could be tested with light's polarizations instead of electrons' momentum. Then in 1982 a young Frenchman named Alain Aspect performed a rigorous test of Bell's theory on which most physicists finally agreed. Quantum mechanics was correct, and either locality or realism was fundamentally wrong.

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  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #26 on: 20/09/2009 17:40:00 »

It’s from a very nice text, called ‘the reality tests’ by Joshua Roebke.
Get it to your ‘E-library’. I like it, a lot, and the experiment if stringently asked should be long underway now. The question I ask, if I assume that we do have a effect on what we’re ‘touching’ and that ‘distance’ is both ‘true and false’, must then become if we all are in some way ‘entangled’? But we only relate it to some effects right, and only on a QM level as yet? But I see this experiment as questioning that. As if this was correct then the ‘macroscopic’ you affect the outcomes? Then again, that ‘you’ is a matter of particles too…

You could of course define time as being of a different 'dimension' to explain it but that doesn't simplify anything. But  to me 'time' is a relation acting on the focus of a observer. So that would just make my headache grow again just as I thought that I’d succeeded in explaining the concept of dimensions / distances / time to my satisfaction.  What a relation is? You say you don’t know? That young, huh? Well thinking of it, I’m not that sure either. A definition I found states that a relation is 'an abstraction belonging to, or characteristic of, two entities or parts together'. That seems to me to state that without preceding parts existing there can be no relations. So my question here might be if it would be possible to consider it the ‘other way around’, with the ‘relations’ creating the ‘parts’. Why we use the opposite definition is quite simple to understand, that is the way we perceive our reality through our 'arrow of time'. Macroscopically no effect I know of can precede the events creating it. Although quantum mechanics seem to point to reactions/relations being possible to exist with time walking 'backwards' the objects creating it must still be there at both 'ends' and seen graphically the relation still will be firmly placed between the objects as a 'relation/reaction' created by their proximity ‘ (cause and effect). But then again, what about our Big Bang? How did we come to be? Maybe we only can come to be outside of ‘times arrow’. Even though the end processes show themselves inside it to us. And maybe ‘energy’ is getting properties inside that arrow that it does not have outside it. (Emergence)

Mass seems to me to be what nowadays is called 'invariant/rest/ - mass'. That is the kind of 'mass' remaining unchanged no matter what particular transformation is applied to it (like moving it near to a Black Hole f ex.). And with all other kinds of 'mass' more resembling what we call momentum to me. So if we create a uniformly moving system at keeping at 99.999999~ 'c' and compare it to another system moving at only a fraction of that speed, at a measly .1 'c', what differs between them. In this case we can be very sure at what speeds those two systems are relative us observing, that is as we accelerated both, So in that motto we might want to define our observing point as being 'point zero'. Of ‘zero speed’ relative those two objects, of course one could expect it to be possible to measure it inside those uniformly moving systems too, like you using a laser gun inside that 'fast  99.9999~' ship. With you studying that lights syrupy motion as it moves toward the nosecone trying to catch up to the ships near light speed.  There is only one problem with that, the light doesn't care for your ships motion at all, it will move at the exact same light speed inside that ship relative its ‘frame of reference’ (Which is the ship in this case) as it will do for us observing it from 'point zero'. That is 299,792,458 meters per second in a vacuum and remember that it doesn't care about its 'starting position/objects' relative speed as it leaves the muzzle, to it all other speeds are as if nonexistent. So here we have a light beam moving at 'c' treating our ship as if it was immobile standing still, but we observing this from 'point zero' still know that we have accelerated that ship to 99.9999~ 'c' relative us? Does that mean, assuming the ship was made of glass, ah, thinking of it maybe this ones name should be Cinderella instead, that we from point zero would observe that laser-beam moving near 2'c'? That as it yet moves at 1 'c' (not caring for the ships already existing speed of 99.9999~ 'c') according to the observer on the ship?

No it doesn't, what we would observe though is that this beam would be of a weaker energy-content than what the observer inside the ship would see. Why? Remember that the ship is moving away from us as well as its beam, the reflected light of that beam would express itself as losing 'energy'. But then you might
say, what if he turned the laser around shooting towards the rear, directly at us? Wouldn’t it then become more energetic as observed by us? Shouldn’t it in fact almost  ‘stand still’ relative us leaving us an imense time to wait until it reached us and if so, shouldn’t that first example never be seen by us as both the beam and the ship was moving  with the beam then at double ‘c’ relative us. Yep, it should countermand the ships velocity at least shouldn’t it? And then it would be traveling to us very slowly, syrupy sort of, as there is nothing forbidding light to slow down :).

Wrrrongggg. It will still move at ‘c’ according to us outside observers, but of a weaker ‘energy content’ even though I would expect it to be stronger than when the beam was directed with the ships velocity. The rule about ‘c’ slowing down is only applicable in different densities but here we have the same density, a vacuum. That is crazy, really crazy, that light will treat all other speeds as if they doesn’t exist, don’t you agree? But it does. But it respects ‘distance’, and mass. And another thing worth considering. When light moves inside ‘invariant mass’ it is seen as to move via interactions with the ‘rest mass’ virtual photons as I understand it. That is, it ‘dies’ and gets ‘resurrected’ constantly until out of that densities ‘boundaries’ a little like a bullet constantly rebounding. But changing to a ‘new bullet’ at each rebound if I got it right? But if seen as a wave then? I’m not sure, there is this explanation though. “In a classical wave picture, the slowing can be explained by the light inducing electric polarization in the matter, the polarized matter radiating new light, and the new light interfering with the original light wave to form a ‘delayed’ wave.” Maybe? Then it sounds remarkably like the bullet, doesn’t it? It ‘dies’ which in a way is how it should be if they are ‘moving’ the same way.

How can that be, two persons observing the same phenomena experiencing two totally different things. It only seems possible if we accept it as ‘relations’ and not as any 'objects' in them self. Although this universe exist and it do contain objects of inherent values as seen by the discussion on light quanta and invariant mass, my question now is where they come from and how they exist. Let us take another look on my idea of defining that ‘point zero’ as being of ‘zero speed’. Can I really do so? I said that I believe that I can’t tell the ‘real speed’ of anything before, right? Except as a arbitrarily made comparison with something else. So how can I swear to that this point zero ain’t uniformly moving at 99.99~ ‘c’ whatever as it is. Well, I guess we could measure its relative motion against our universes background radiation (CBR)? Depending on our motion /speed that radiation should be red or blue shifted. That won’t guarantee anything, as far as I know, but it seems the best ‘ruler’ for measuring relative ‘uniform motion’ in SpaceTime as it is expected to cover all known ‘areas’ and seems much the same, even though there are some ‘discrepancies’ to it. It’s still just a comparison of course. Ah, thinking of discrepancies :)

Ever heard of CP violations?


If we take the entire universe and move it over by 100 meters, we say it has undergone a spatial transformation of 100 meters.  Now imagine inverting space, that is, reflecting every point to the opposite side of a fixed (but arbitrary) center.  This is known as a parity transformation, and is designated by the symbol P.  Another possible transformation of the physical world is to take every single particle and turn it into its antiparticle.  This is known as the charge conjugation transformation, and we refer to it using the symbol C.

    If the universe would remain unchanged after being through a transformation, we say that it is symmetric, or invariant, under that transformation.  In any physical model of the universe, the laws are represented by equations, and we can prove invariance under any given transformation by performing the transformation on the equations and seeing if the resulting equations are equivalent to the original ones.  For example, the universe is invariant under spatial transformations - the laws are the same at any location, and it's impossible to tell whether the universe has undergone a spatial transformation.

    If we consider a universe with no particles or interactions, the physical laws are also invariant under both P and C transformations.  What we find if we introduce interactions is that some that exist in our universe would not exist in a P-transformed universe, and vice versa, in other words, the universe is NOT invariant under P.  In pretty much the same way, we find it is not invariant under C.  Amazingly, invariance is regained (almost) if we consider not just P or C, but the combined transformation CP.
The intriguing and maddening observation is that the laws are not-quite-invariant under CP transformations.  In other words, we have CP violation.

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It seems that this violation is what creates our Universe, if matter and antimatter was CP invariant then they would take each other out as I understands it (according to those mathematical ‘transformations/equations’.) We create experiments testing our observations. It seems that we can do that theoretically/mathematically too. That is, build a chain of ‘cause and effect’ on paper mathematically which we can ‘grow’ until we find something we believe to be testable physically :) And then search for the evidence of our computations physically inside our SpaceTime. A very clever way of creating and testing a hypothesis, and one of the reasons I believe mathematics to be ‘the language of choice’ describing SpaceTime. Which also include all ‘universes’ we never will observe of course, all though we can give them credibility mathematically. One mathematical definition made (sometime in the end of eighteen hundred?) described a Universe where parallel lines always would meet in the end and according to what I read it was in itself perfectly consistent and provable mathematically. The question then becomes, do that universe exist ‘somewhere’?

Is all mathematics describing a ‘truth’? even if not fitting exactly our SpaceTime. I don’t know, I would guess that Math can be ‘wrong’ too though, creating ‘possibilities’ that never have been before we put in on print. But I’m not sure so I won’t swear to it. But it makes me wonder if it is possible to create a equation/transformation describing something ‘invariant’ without distances involved, that will have it when ‘turned around’? Probably not, then on the other hand our Universe is not ‘invariant’ meaning ‘the exact same/unchanged/symmetric’ under those transformations so the ‘trick’ might be to find that equation that can jump from ‘no distances’ to something containing them and fitting up to the descriptions we already have found defined doing those CP transformations? But if there is an in-equivalence in the SpaceTime we have there seems to me that there should be a ‘rest’ even when doing that transformation. But then again, I’m not thinking that there is ‘nothing’ left when the distances is gone. Something has to be there it seems, to create what we experience. When I say ‘nothing’ I’m thinking of our concept of dimensions meaning that they as well as any arrow of time then will be non-existent. But it seems that ‘pure math as well as hup shares the ‘unknowable’…

In 1931, Kurt Godel dropped a bomb on the mathematical world, as follows:

    To every w-consistent recursive class k of formulae there correspond recursive class-signs r such that neither v Gen r nor Neg (v Gen r) belongs to Flg (k) (where v is the free variable of r).

Did you understand that? Good. I didn't expect you to either. In English, it essentially says that "All consistent axiomatic formulations of number theory include undecidable propositions" (Hofstadter D., Godel, Escher Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid, p.17). So how do we interpret that? A consistent system is one where it is impossible for a statement and its negation to be true simultaneously. In other words, "2 + 2 equals 4" and "2 + 2 is not equal to 4" cannot both be true. If they are both true, the system is inconsistent. So if we have a consistent system, it is possible to write a statement that is true, but cannot be proven.

Godel's genuis was to discover that by encoding the symbols of number theory into numbers themselves, and creating rules to manipulate those numbers, it is possible to write statements of number theory that have two meanings. The first is the literal meaning of the symbols themselves. However, if the numbers have been properly manipulated, there is a second "meta-meaning" to the statement, which can be obtained by reversing the encoding. Using this scheme, Godel was able to construct a statement (G) which had the meta-meaning "G has no proof". Since statement G was constructed using the proper formalisms and encoding on the literal level, the meta-meaning must be true. So it is possible to construct a statement which is true, but has no proof. Therefore in the mathematical world, there are unknowables as well.

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Welcome to the ‘magic Universe’ :)


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #27 on: 20/09/2009 17:41:05 »

It doesn’t ‘invalidate’ 2+2 becoming 4, it just relates it to its proper ‘sphere’ it seems? (SpaceTime). Just like my concept of thingies inside our arrow of time, intermediate to our arrow of time, and those ‘outside’ our arrow of time.. Can I see something ‘symmetric’ here?

If we assume our universe of time again with no geometric order existing except by that possibly found inside times 'density's', if you allow me my play with words, then what spatial coordinates would you expect from it. What did we say about the photon? It was intrinsically timeless and possible to superimpose without
taking any physical place at all. Our ‘real’ universe do have 'time', it's filled with 'time' or at least all possible relations coming out of 'time'. But to have a size it seems to me that there needs to be a boundary outlining and defining, at least the ‘object’ in it. Consider the geometry of all geometry's superimposed, if we could break/make them into quantum super-positions like photons are said to be able to. Doing so would break down everything we call distance or events, that as all ‘distances’ would contain all events, and all events would be superimposed everywhere. In that kind of universe the 'arrow of time' would lose all coherence and order. Somewhere I read that a ‘quantization’ of general relativity will lead to a superposition of all geometry's quantum-wise .
What I still haven't touched upon though, is that 'arrow of time' in itself. Is there such a thing and how does it comes to be?  We have what we call entropy, that is as I see it a direct result from our ‘arrow’ but according to entropy all 'energies' will 'level out' as I understands it, in the end becoming unusable for any 'work done'. Does that mean that 'times arrow' will disappear too? Not if it is relating to mass I think. This is worth some thought though, mass change the time expressed with it, as seen from an observer outside, but does that time relation 'tagging down/weakening', if you like, have defined 'edges/jumps' to it or is it more of a smooth transition 'seamlessly watered out' as 'distance' grows to its original 'source'. Also, what is it that ‘ticks/vibrates’ giving us that linear ‘beat’? Let's go back to the first question. Why is there such a thing like the 'arrow of time'. There is one answer that I find quite simple even if somewhat roundabout.

What would the universe look without that arrow? Biological systems needs a certain direction in time and so needs a universe, would any growth from simplicity to complexity be possible without our arrow of time? Would a Big Bang exist? I think not. Could a universe with all events 'super imposed' contain 'life'? So there I present the simplest reason I can think of, we can only exist in such a universe, without that 'arrow' nothing biologically 'fractal' could evolve, and by saying 'fractal' I'm thinking of all processes that grows from something relatively simple to the most complex. So that arrow is a must for any 'growth' and should have existed before the idea of mass. And without it the question would be moot as there would be no one reflecting over it. But what is that arrow? If time would be seen as relations between objects, as well as the objects themselves, How does the 'arrow of time' come into play, isn't that a contradiction of terms? So does 'times arrow' exist? Definitely as long as invariant mass does I think, but in a universe without mass then? That takes us to the idea of a 'perfect vacuum'. Does a perfect vacuum contain mass? How about the hidden energy contained in it, how about all those virtual particles. All of them exist in any 'space' you can define. But down there time becomes very much chains of ‘cause and effect’ without any single ‘time arrow’ pointing in only one direction when expressed inside SpaceTime.  A little like as if the canvas we can ‘see’ (space) only is a ‘cause and effect’ area down at its smallest Planck filled size. The question might also be what is needed to formulate/create a 'space' containing 'distances'. Would it be enough with virtual particles (Hidden energy)? Or does 'space' need invariant mass (restmass) to coagulate, well, it seems so to me? But photons then? They also have energy, but with neither size nor mass related to them. A universe of photons, Can it have an arrow of time? Not as I see it, I don’t expect them to belong even to a ‘cause and effect’ chain in themselves, even though they do it as observed from us. Does a photon vibrate? Nah, wouldn’t that violate its intrinsical timelessness and sizelessness?  But if it was somewhat like a ‘hole in space’, could space vibrate around that hole? I see no reason why it couldn’t, space is filled with energy, isn’t it? Wouldn’t it want to ‘close’ it? As it would be a ‘break’ in its ‘equilibrium’?

Let me speculate some more about time and space. What would be the necessity for 'time'? Matter? Space seems to be a direct effect of matter though. As some see it time is expressed through what we call 'clocks'. There are a lot of definitions for what a 'clock' is, something that measure events, which presents a 'coherence' holding a time-like ‘direction/arrow’ for the observer. The coherence here would be our 'arrow of time' macroscopically and if broken down further our binding ‘event-chains’ in Quantum Mechanics. We know that this times arrow seems to break down at Quantum mechanical 'distances' and that 'time' there becomes something more similar to connected events but without any specific 'arrow pointing in only one ‘direction’. The main point that I would like to lift forward here is that the ‘events’ seen in QM still have a 'coherence' to them, which means that they still makes sense to us, and so, even without that defined arrow of 'time', still are able to create a 'logical' chain of cause and effect for us observing. So isn’t 'cause and effect' a better description for that than 'times arrow'?

Time with that arrow we experience is an expression belonging to our macroscopic universe, not any 'universal truth' but 'cause and effect'  seems to belong to both QM and SpaceTime. If time needs to be 'measured' to exist, or expressed otherwise, if time needs a 'clock' to proof itself. What then would you see as its smallest common nominator? Matter, nah, matter is a clock but a macroscopic one, suitable only for our known arrow. Energy then? Can we use energy as a measure of time. To me, I think so, as long as we give up on the macroscopic arrow and possibly QM:s ‘double arrow’ too. Can a clock exist without a ‘arrow of time’? That’s the question. Turn it around. What gives it ‘two results’ in QM? And what makes those virtual particles create themselves out of nothing spontaneously?

Virtual particles is a very nice description of 'energy'. They 'work' both ways as they do have an observable effect at our macroscopic SpaceTime somehow mediating ‘work done’ by their existence to and following our 'arrow of time', at the same time as they as a 'cause' exist outside of any such  ‘arrow/event/description' and also loses nothing themselves in the process. So seen like this we have something, 'virtual' that without expending any 'work done' in itself, as its total effect/effort/expression is null, still influences and change the outcome of observable events inside our own arrow of time (SpaceTime). Another name for describing something suddenly changing its behavior and properties is 'emergence', somewhat alike water turning into ice and so begetting new properties.

There is one thing that I want to ‘press on a little more before we move on again. When I say that I think that ‘energy’ is the smallest common nominator I don’t mean that it will have a ‘clock’ as we are used to describe them. ‘clocks’ as we see them macroscopically have the arrow of time guiding them and at a QM level ‘cause and effect’, with which I  mean a ‘to us understandable chain of events’, guiding even without that ‘one single arrow’. That on the other hand don’t invalidate the concept of ‘clocks’. It just questions if a ‘clock’ or ‘chains of events’ is a most correct description. Perhaps there are a more hidden mechanism working to create both those ‘realities’ acting as a ‘counting’ too, but not in any easily recognizable way to us. Can we have a ‘beat’ not measuring? Without distances nothing ‘ticks’, yet we will get processes out of that ‘nothing’ unfolding in SpaceTime?

And that takes me back to that smallest common nominator, energy. Could 'energy' be a ‘smallest’ expression of time? If that would be true then the question whether 'time' consists of 'events' stringed together or a seamless 'flow' steering only one way disappears. And that’s a relief to me :) Time might then better be described as a kind of 'field' existing and permeating all, and then 'time' in itself have no need for an 'arrow' to exist, it will be us that 'needs' it. Is it mass that creates space? And Mass is a clock, so what are the smallest ‘clocks’ we know of? Particles right? Or is it waves? Can we say that the wave in itself can be a clock? Is clocks a relation, I mean if particles would be seen as some smallest ‘clock’ can we use the ‘vibration’ from an electron as a time counter? But then the electron is not the answer is it, its what we call its ‘vibration’ that is the time measuring, and those seems even ‘smaller’ than the electron? But they need the relation to mass to materialize as a ‘clock’. This vibration? Can it be there without restmass involved? But any ‘clock’ we use seem to be a combination of a restmass and waves?

All systems seems to order themselves from the simple to the complex. That’s one rule I believe to be. Also that the 'jumps/bifurcations' a system makes won't be recognized by our measuring as the transitions taking place are outside of our macroscopic 'arrow of time'. And there is where that fractal behaviour we observe seems to fit, ah, to me that is.

The Wheeler-Feynman model, called the "absorber theory of radiation," makes electromagnetism a two-way street as far as the time dimension is concerned. They based their time-symmetric theory on the assumption that every light wave emitted by an atom must be absorbed by another atom and that these two events, light emission plus light absorption, should be considered as a single inseparable process. In it they see ‘time’ as going backward from the sink (your eye), which is cases allowed by both Dirac's equation and Maxwell's wave equation for light, as well as it goes forward in time from the source (sun). As a result any light observed will need both factors to exist (Source and sink)


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #28 on: 20/09/2009 17:41:53 »


Like Dirac's equation, Maxwell's wave equation for light has two solutions, the so-called "retarded solution" that describes a wave traveling forward in time and the "advanced solution" that describes a light wave traveling backward in time. Both of these waves travel at the same speed-the speed of light in vacuum-- but in opposite temporal directions. The retarded wave travels in the normal direction -- from past to future -- while the advanced wave goes the other way -- from the future into the past...

--- And how Radiation occurs according to The Wheeler-Feynman model.

First atom A emits, without recoiling (no self-interaction), a half-sized (retarded) wave that travels forward in time at a speed of 186,000 mps to the absorber atom B. Atom B recoils as it takes up this light's momentum. Then, stimulated by its recoil motion, atom B emits a half-sized (advanced) wave that travels backward in time at a speed of 186,000 mps to atom A. Atom A recoils as it takes up this advanced wave's momentum.

The timing of the emission and absorption events guarantees that at any moment the half-sized advanced wave sent back in time from the absorber always finds itself at the same position in space as the half-sized retarded wave sent forward in time from the emitter. Thus the two waves fuse together to form a single full-sized wave which appears to have been sent from the emitter and received by the absorber.

Because of this exact superposition of advanced and retarded waves, the Wheeler-Feynman model produces the same apparent wave motion as conventional radiation theory. The two theories give the same result but propose radically different models of what is actually happening. Conventional radiation theory is a simple matter of cause and effect. Wheeler-Feynman theory involves a handshaking procedure much like data exchanged between two computers in which a data transfer initiated by one computer is not completed until the exchange has been acknowledged by a message sent back from the second computer. order for light to be emitted it must be connected to some future absorber by a two-way retarded-advanced wave handshake process. Because of the need for the presence of absorbers, the absorber theory predicts that if there are none in a particular direction in space, then light will refuse to shine in that particular direction!

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That we haven’t ever observed any ‘advanced waves’ seems easily explained by the fact that both sink and source, according to this theory, need to be ‘present’ for any light to occur. That idea seems similar to mine though I suggest time to be ‘all’ there is and so not restricted in any spatial or ‘time (size) induced’ direction. As I see it that ‘source’ and your ‘sink’ and what happens between them is just another expression of time relations, with no distance involved in fact. ( And as we all know, there needs at least two ‘something’ for any relation to work  :) The main thing here is not the universe itself but the ‘beholding’ of it. Without anything ‘observing’ there will be no interactions. We need to work from the idea of ‘observing’ in itself to make sense of SpaceTime. To do that we need to decide what makes an ‘observer’ There seems to be a difference between ‘virtual particles/energy’ and what we deem ‘ordinary light/energy’ but if we question ‘times arrow’ I believe we will find them to be the same. And the difference between them being that ‘arrow of time’ taking us from ‘A’ to ‘B’ macroscopically. Which takes us to the strange effect of ‘distance’ or ‘dimensions’. Both have one ting in common, they need ‘size’ to exist. When the size is to small the arrow becomes indeterminable although existing (QM). When we go further down to what creates virtual particles we pass the Planck length and there ‘size’ as well as any ‘arrows’ indeterminate or not, cease to exist. There I believe you will find the dimension less ‘field’ that allows ‘size/distance’ to exist.

But even if you accept this we still need to understand Consciousness, ‘Observers ‘and Size. (Distance)
If I suggested that what governs SpaceTime to be a combination of the ‘distances’, of the observation and time itself I still haven’t touched what it is questioning it. And that would be very stupid of me as without the ‘observer’ nothing can exist. There will be no experiment made, ever, that can have a defined outcome if no one is there to ‘observe’ it, no matter how you see it. Consciousness seems to be a prerequisite for anything to happen too. You might laugh at that and insist that things work even as we sleep, or are in a coma,  and the planets will move, but it’s still a truth. Without a beholder there will be nothing to behold. It seems though that what we do with SpaceTime that differs it from all other non thinking/living ‘detectors/observers’ is that we actively manipulate it. Furthermore, according to my view ‘intelligence/consciousness ’ is required to exist at some state, all other things just being the ground laid out for it as the ‘simple’ unfolds into the ‘complex’. But the objection is still valid, the question then becomes to define what a ‘observer’ can be. Should we split consciousness from ‘Observers’? To me that seems reasonable. That as if the SpaceTime created from our ‘arrow of time’ is a matter of ‘size’ then all things over a certain size (Planck size? ) will be ‘observers’ and ‘sources and sinks’ simultaneously, perhaps communicating through those ‘virtual particles/photons’. So where should we place Consciousness as we know it then?  As a matter of ‘size’ too perhaps? Or maybe the word should be ‘complexity’ or ‘Emergence’. As water becomes ice (Emergence) and change its properties so also we may be the direct result of ‘time acting upon itself. .

Here under you will find my approach to the question of ‘right living’, ‘reality’ and climate. As for if I’m right or not I can’t be sure, even though when it comes to the question of climate I’m afraid I just might be, as for my ‘philosophy’? Well, I prefer it before the so called ‘behaviouristic approach’ to life, in where you by painting your factory’s walls in some new color will beget a better ‘working effort’ short time. In a behaviouristic ‘approach to reality’ we are all ‘Pavlov’s dogs’, salivating as that bell rings, and the only thing to hope for in such a society is that you are ‘led’ by hopefully enlightened ‘leaders. That ideology of out-view also include those ‘leading’ naturally, even though they may manipulate you through its dogmas. (Sometimes those folk’s seems to miss that? :) . To me that idea more seems to signify all self-expressed ‘Elite’s’ need to simplify those ‘under’ them as being somehow less, so to place themselves ‘above’, if you get my drift. Another statement of ‘humanity’ to me. Not that it won’t work though, we humans contain a multitude, all to often contradictorily in nature, and, when all is said and done, it’s you (and me) accepting this behaviouristic approach that makes it so.



  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #29 on: 20/09/2009 17:43:50 »

-------- And now some late coming words from my moral sponsor, the Conscience. ---------

We may be intelligent but we’re not ‘wise’. If  we would, would we then have all those small arms wars, 'global warming' and plastic wastes, presumably the size of one to two Texas, gathered by streams and winds into a heap drifting in the oceans, dissolving into molecules, poisoning the marine life and thereby us? Anybody noticed that impact on, ah, Saturn? Jupiter was it? Any which way, making a hole the size of an Earth on whatever planet it was, and in our own ‘backyard’ too. Seems to me like someone gave us a warning shoot right over our bow there. Better thy ways human, or else. I saw that there was a new book on the market putting the ‘Gaia idea’ against a new one called ‘the Medea.’ The idea there seems to be that ‘Gaia’ should be seen as nurturing and healing, that she always will do her best for us, no matter our moral and ethical incompetence. ‘Medea’ on the other hand is the princess of Colchis who insanely killed her own offspring. And as the author seems to state, a better representation for what we are. Well, I don’t know. My idea of ‘Gaia’ is more neutral, she do her best to create a living sphere for all life, but once there, they’re on their own. Quite simple, but I can see how he got ‘Medea’ .

Take a look yourself and see what you find. It’s quite healthy to do so now and then.  Behind our ‘social surfaces’ the predator still lurks and he trusts no one, and its his! Everything is, by conquest or social manipulation, and he is the best ‘liar’ there is, as he’s lying to himself, yeah that’s you! Supporting your ‘righteousness’ and pushing your egos ‘beliefs’ as truths. Seen that way we do smell a little. :) But that’s how we is. Bio-mass, fighting our way up. And perhaps, that’s the way we’re going to expire too? Bio-mass, cells dividing until they take up the whole substrate and then die. Myself, I’ve never enjoyed those ‘social ‘surfaces’’ we present for ourselves and others. And as I see it we have a obligation towards the rest of the life on this planet, mostly because we’re the ones killing it. So either you grow, and that’s up to you, no one else. Or you stay an little predator, proud over your tiny conquests in life, pompous over your skills in social engineering and manipulation, trusting that promises is deeds and to take action is to say and vote the ‘right thing’. And before all, I’m not fond of ‘politics’. That’s one of the saddest statements of humanity, that we can’t manage our life’s without them, We need ‘surfaces’ hiding all intents, even to ourselves. That’s what your politician stands to service you with, the excuses and half-truths the ‘social surfaces’ craves, to let us glide against each other as friction less as possible, just like those economists and fortunetellers, protecting our ego’s right to greed and consume. Don’t tell me I’m making it up. Take a look around on child-soldiering, prostitution, slavery, mass-rapes, ethnical cleansing, ‘Kyoto treaties’, the way industries can run over any rights, any war you ‘like’, and any ‘peace’ you remember. By now I think, we all need to grow up… Fast.

I’m hoping you can.
Ghoulish? Yep, that‘s me :)
If anyone want to drag the ideas of politics or 'ideals' into it we are on very unstable ground. The only thing I would like to put to notice there is that we seem to have two choices. One is expecting morality, ethics and all other 'ideas' of humanity to be just another expression of 'cause and effect' without any 'right or wrong' prevalent to it, more than the biological survival of the 'strongest prevalent' amount/group(s) of bio-mass acting. If you see it so concentration camps becomes just another statement of 'humanity' not involving any concepts of 'right and wrong'.. On the other hand, If you followed my reasoning before, there might be a 'hidden truth' to life where the concept of 'ethics' and 'right and wrong' do exist as something inherently true at a more complex plane. As the universe seems to come from ‘simplicity’ to an ever-growing complexity with us as its ‘loftiest peak’ intelligence-wise. And what does that definition make of you behaviorists supporting only the ‘bio-mass’ concept?  I would like to see myself and you as an expression of that later definition but I can't be sure, and neither can you. Still, the world becomes what you make of it, doesn't it. You, as our diversified  'books of wisdom' like to express it, have choices to make, all of them circling around what you deem as your 'free will'. Seen so it may not matter which of those concepts you believe true, as long as you make your choices 'wisely'. Although I will freely admit to finding it rather a bore if life was proofed to be just another concept of 'bio-mass reproducing'. I’m not sure where dreams end and life starts but without them life becomes boring indeed. So, seen this way, that may be what 'living' is all about? Creating that 'moral ground' from where we can uplift our newfangled concepts of Ethics, 'Right and Wrong' into SpaceTime as 'realities' guiding our growth. Who knows, I certainly don’t. Looking at it that way I wonder though.



  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #30 on: 20/09/2009 17:44:45 »
As far as I understand there have been an ever rising spiral of civilian non-combatant’s dying, in all wars since the second world war, including Americas. But you will have difficulties confirming this, as no war waging nation would like to admit to it. It’s very bad ‘publicity’ indeed in this day and time. Remember Genghis Kahn? I believe he would have found it counterproductive to hide any deaths, he liked to leave pyramids of skulls from his enemies heads , not bothering to sort them into ‘farmers’ artisans’ ‘warriors’,  just to remind his foes about the realities of warring with him.. To day we want it both ways, don’t we. Ruthlessly ‘scare the sh1t’ out of our opponent, but hide the true numbers of civilians killed, so not to seem ‘uncivilized’. But you can only die one time, as long as you’re not taken prisoner of course, under which conditions you find yourself totally defenseless. And that I see as a truth to any army, barbaric or civilized. So if I may, ‘killing by proxy’ involving no men (long distance weaponry, guided missiles etc.) is no guarantee of victory, as long as your foe is ready to die physically for his point of view. To him your new ideas of ‘unmanned wars’ might just be a proof of a cowardliness and yes, unmanliness, waiting to be manipulated, as you then seem to miss that ‘moral commitment’ they see as ‘inherent’ in their own cause. That modern warfare may hide or move the civilian deaths under, or to, other ‘attributes/labels’ is no proof otherwise either. Then again, if you’re ruthless enough, a nuke or two is a simple way to try to solve any ‘discussion’ or war. And that’s the real threat held behind the back, ain’t it. But it opens ‘Pandora’s box’ and in there we find all sorts of biological, chemical as well as nuclear weapons waiting. We don’t really need any Hell in any hereafter, we seem to do just as good without it.

What we offer each other today is not only death, but total oblivion of any human society, be it ever so primitive. So to my reckoning there is nothing especially fantastic about our lives today that differs them from more primitive times. Cruelty, ignorance and avarice is still there, just hidden under its new glove of ‘civilization’. But to lift forward any older ‘civilization’ as being a ‘nobler thing’ seems even more incompetent to me. In medieval times the idea of European fun might be to throw a cat into the fire to watch it burn alive, In ancient Rome the slaughters of slaves called gladiators, thousands of them with the ‘games’ going on continuously for a hundred days leaving new corpses every day, littered all over the arena. As well as constant wars of course. We as a species is to be pitied more than glorified to me, and the way we treat life is under all critique. We’ve been acting as predatory animals until we almost have extinguished all life there is, except those we have a use for, our shoes, clothes and food, although recently we seem to be trying for them too? No, I’m not meaning that you need to become a vegetarian to change, we’re meat-eaters too. And if vegetarianism was the ‘meaning of life’ why would there be lions, and mosquitoes? :)

Humankind’s inherent aggressiveness and greed was ‘acceptable’ as long as the world could accommodate it by sheer size and possibility of exploitation, but lately we seem to have run out of room. Ideas I’ve seen on the net lifting forward the Arctic’s loss of its ice-sheet and its consequent ruining of krill, plankton, its marine-life, polar-bears etc as a new opportunity for ‘progress’ must be one of the dumbest things I’ve read. As well as it is killing off the first order of life we ‘stand on’. Ever wondered what krill and plankton are good for? " Krill numbers may have dropped by as much as 80% since the 1970's - so today's stocks are a mere 1/5th of what they were only 30 years ago "  Ever heard about the concept of ‘food-chains’? Goggle and be educated.  At times I’m stupefied that we made it this far, but then again, that world was ‘bigger’ to us, and we didn’t have this new kind of  biological and nuclear ‘mass destruction’ in our hands either.

With global warming fast becoming a reality all nations will have to prove their ‘moral mettle’ soon enough, as the number of ‘uninhabitable’ areas grows , especially in countries already renown for their poverty. We already see the European Community closing their door to such refugees fleeing from Africa. And America is strengthening their borders. But I promise you that it will become worse, as well as more degrading, for all sides . And I consider most wars to be fought over ‘resources’. ‘Ethnic cleansing’ or the ‘Evilness’ of the opponent becoming the ‘label of choice’ at times, but I still say that most wars will be started over resources, not ideas, even though religion have played a major role in most. The type of warring we see between Islamic and Christian interests is nowadays so hopelessly intermixed politically as well as geographically that as for trying to give them a ‘unity label’ becomes quite difficult. But when wars becomes to numerous to keep straight in your head religious labels still work. So then all of the Islamic interests can talk about the Jihad, not caring for if they fight Russians or Americans.

But the opposite definition is still not true for us, when we look at Caucasus and Chechenia for example we see it as a specific Russian problem, of their own creation too. And when we look at Iraq we see a ‘American first/Western then’ problem, and for who’s to ‘blame’ there?  (He was one ugly customer that Saddam Hussein, he nerve-gassed a whole village just because they were Kurd’s, didn’t he?)  But it’s still a powderkeg waiting to ‘blow’ over there, years after the ‘real’ war is supposed to have ended. Why? For me it’s a question of resources. Oil, land, mineral, why else would we be there, although it seems as we are giving up somewhat, the logistics of ‘keeping Iraq western minded’ is just to difficult, as well as expensive.. Islamic ‘Jihad warriors’ though I expect to see it differently, as a overall ‘Christian/Western’ oppressive religious problem, even though they’re very well aware of the importance of land and resources (Agrarian societies). But by labeling it ‘religious’ it becomes the same everywhere with ‘them against us’ with their ‘true religion’ as the banner, and them being the ‘liberators’ naturally. But perhaps some Countries are ‘planning ahead’ in certain ways. ‘Realpolitik’. “USA Russia and Nato should consider joining their ‘rocket shield’ defenses immediately, considering ‘mutual problems’” said the Nato chief Anders Fogh Rasmusen recently.  Against what? Aliens? The Jihadic movements? China? And so comes ‘unequal democracies’ once more together. Anybody remembering the upstart to WW2? Or are we all weaned of history books those days?  If we take away the layer of politics and religion most of the problems will be one of resources, and human rights. And we all know how Russia looks at ‘human rights’ today, don’t we?


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #31 on: 20/09/2009 17:45:56 »
As for the ‘Jihadic’ movement? I doubt they even believe there to be any such notion as ‘human rights’. All ‘agrarian’ societies have, through history, primarily been involved in the principles of ‘owning’, from land to people, and that western newfangled notion of some ‘objective’ right for all, based on everyones equal worth as human beings? What? “Typical westerners”.. Then again. Looking at it, do we really trust in those ideas ourselves? We put those ideals aside so easily when playing our ‘real politics’’. So I guess we won’t ‘gear down’ to adapt to the Climates demands then? Instead ‘gear up’ for a war perhaps? Hoping that this will magically ‘solve’ CO2, Methane, overpopulation, and a untold number of other problems destroying our living-sphere? And in a war no one will have time to see any pollution’s effects, right. And industries can ‘walk’ wherever they please without problems, exploiting oceanic gas-fields, the Arctic, everywhere in perpetuity while ‘doing their best’ for our ‘war-effort’. And after it? If we survive I mean. Rebuilding? Well, we had to defend our ‘ideals’, didn’t we? And what problems we face then will seem smaller than that ‘war’ was, won’t they? And what the industries already done will then just be another shortsighted ‘fact’, won’t it? Even if those ‘facts’ lead us to..? But won’t a war open ‘Pandora’s Box’?  Well, that’s the chance we took if so, right? So this is were our notions of ‘owning’, greed, politics and religion will lead us. And hey, forget about any ‘human rights’ when it start. Those notions are like industries poorly geographically placed. In case of  a economic decline the very first to go up in smoke. Now you might get the idea here that I’m some kind of flower-whipping hippie praying for peace? No, not that I mind hippies though. To me fighting is acceptable, as when you’re attacked by that bully, or for a nation when attacked by an aggressor. That’s only self-defense and quite proper too. As long as we act as we do, that is, we all need a defense. But to act the aggressor, and to plan like a bully or aggressor hiding that long stick behind your back, that’s gotta end, this planet is just to small. We will need other solutions for our ‘visions of power’. Define better ideas of what makes a man a man than his ability to kill off all living. If you talk with truly tough guys, as we all have been known to do on occasions, what strikes me is not their ability to inflict harm. To be a really ‘tough guy’ it’s not enough to stop caring for the consequences, that’s in fact something most of us can learn, depending on circumstances. The real trick is when you realize how hard it will become for you to live honorably, once you learnt where your uncompromising nature takes you, and how you solve it. So you might think you’re a ‘hardass’ but until you’ve been where I’m talking about, you still got some way to go. And there is in fact a ‘way of the warrior’ but it is more spiritual than physical, it’s more about commitment to a goal or dream than to beat the living daylight out of all you meet. So, maybe war is in our ‘genes’? I say we still need to find a better outlet than what we have today.

 So ‘labels’ unify where logic can’t?

It’s only Human, isn’t it? How about your own television, a known pacifier as well as a ‘unifier’.. And before that, your radio.. Or your work (and mates)? Doesn’t that ‘unify’ too? And why does advertising work so well? And in a slightly more ‘primitive’ agrarian surrounding, what’s better than ‘religion’? We use it too, look at Bosnia and Serbia for a recent example? So what, really? What, do you think will happen if Earth’s resources shrinks drastically? “- But isn’t that what we have our politicians for?” You might ask yourself slightly cynical, “To take those really bad tasting decisions away, and hide them amongst all other decisions I don’t want to be ‘bothered’ with.” “ I mean, we are a Democracy, okay, a representative Democracy but still a ‘Democracy’, let the ‘chosen ones’ take care of that..”  Like here in Sweden me reading how the police now seems allowed to  ‘DNA brand’ shoplifters, you know taking saliva test of them to be able to track them if they later on do other crimes. It’s true, any crime able to, in a ‘worst case scenario’, lead to a prison sentence seems to give the Swedish state that ‘right’ now? So lets get those kids, as we all know shop lifting is a true ‘gate’ opening to all other criminality, just like stealing those apples from your neighbor’s backyard was in earlier days. Only  joking. To me it seems to give all Swedish police work a big fat ‘incompetence stamp’ as they apparently need this kind of ‘branding’ to find out ‘who did what’. “Yep, we just need to wait until the crime is done. Then my friend, then, we’ll ‘track those bastards down.”. Kind’a make me feel all warm and fuzzy, protected like. . But then again. My kind of mentality and protests seems all comes down to “if you’re protesting then, you gotta be ‘one of them’ “. Which is a good even if somewhat roundabout argument used under a lot of circumstances, having had both Stalin and Hitler as ‘avid supporter’s’.

Think about a society populated by people marked out from birth by those kind of ‘standards’, then ask yourself if you can find a surer, more subtle way of conserving any states power/ideology. And hiding this kind of ‘DNA-management’ under a stamp of ‘democracy’ is a very clever way of eating the cookie as you keeps it, ah, where it ‘belongs’. But every nation gets the ‘management’ they prefer, don’t they. I mean, how many years have India’s ‘caste mentality’ survived? Shouldn’t they love it? Well, those ‘on top’ might, but the others? Goggle and be educated. And then you can ask yourself what you think would have happened to any form of ‘resistance’ if this type of tracking techniques were found under a war, combined with a ‘national citizens data register’ naturally. . My guess is that any resistance mounted would need to see the war push pass most moral limits, perhaps with resistance becoming as strong a urge as for those inside that WW2 ghetto of Warsaw, having no choice left but ‘revolt /and/ die’. The psychological inertia built into the realization of you and your kin’s vulnerability is a monumental steppingstone, knowing that you would be traced by rudimental scrapes of skin, blood or a dropped piece of hair left. Of course it would work best in modern societies where we already have it all ‘organized’. Like Sweden?  So what do this kind of systems do to your right of free speech you think? Like free thinking, speech, and all your ‘democratic rights’ in peacetime? Nothing, you say? ..If you just behave, right?  Like they just are there for ‘show’, just another brand-label maybe? “ Be the first to be really free, now with seventy percent more ‘spruce’ to it.” Do you know how many that died, believing and fighting for those kind of rights to exist? But you’re borne to it, so you don’t need to know, right. It’s easier remembering the one that hurt you than the one that did you a good turn. Only normal, but says a lot about human nature. When someone cares for you, you take it for granted “because you deserve it” right,  but if they do you harm? Let them beware.. If you ask me you would be better off with those that do you good instead, and learn from that. But that would make you think independently and actively, wouldn’t it? For evil to succeed it’s perfectly sufficient with you turning your head away, easy and safely passive.


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #32 on: 20/09/2009 17:46:38 »
And that’s where I usually give up. If you’re of that, ah, bovine, temperament maybe it’s your birthright after all? But then, on the fifty first testicle, didn’t we outlaw slavery? On the other tentacle, is sheer stupidity really entitled to liberty? Well yes, it seems to, doesn’t it? Ever read “The  Master and Margarita” by Mikhail Bulgakov ? It’s a cool book, when I read it that first time I had no idea that it was supposed to be ‘controversial’ but, even so, there seems to be a ‘hidden’ message in it. When it first came out in Russia, by the monthly magazine ‘Moskva’ 1966 its 150,000  copies sold out within hours. Not because it was a fantastic tale in itself, still rated among the best I’ve read. Just because nobody believed that anyone would be allowed to write anything like that in Russia. Yeah, Bulgakow was dead by then, he had spent the years from 1928 to his death 1940 writing and rewriting it, even burning it once as he was so scared by what Stalin might do. It’s a story about magic, freedom, social ‘surfaces’ and the state. To me as a western reader it presents me with a cool and lovely tale, extremely easy to read although not ‘revolutionary’ in any sense, just extremely imaginative. But to that Russian buying the ‘Moskva’, twenty-six years after his death it still was ‘Revolutionary’. I warmly recommend it to anyone capable to read more than the newspaper. Read it and try to understand why it was revolutionary. Then ask yourself if you would like to live in a society where a book like that would be ‘burned’.

Not only the Swedish police are ‘incompetence declaring’ themselves by the way? There seems to be a lot of ‘democratic’ police forces hailing this technique as being the ‘new way of future police work’, not all of them finding the need to ‘brand’ shop lifters as ‘hardened criminals’ though. For a unsavory comparison, the Nazis ‘branded’ those enforced to prostitution with a big ‘H’ in the forehead, in their camps. Now it seems we have a more sophisticated method for getting the exact same result, ‘branded individuals’. And this time a skin transplant won’t clear it for you. That said I can agree to this kind of DNA-technique being useable for those we find to commit the worst kinds of crimes, like serial killing, grave assault/ rapes/ murders and robbery’s, and those really ugly crimes involving children. That meaning those unable to trust in whichever society they exist in, but then it should be done after the fact, not before, searching those evidence at the crime-scene. And using that DNA to test against those suspected. And not ‘keeping’ the irrelevant DNA begotten under such procedures. The police have to use their brains like the rest of us, and, as I expect, do have them when allowed to create the right kind of competence and structure. In Sweden we’ve had our individual ‘birth numbers’ following us a long time. And to good results too, when used as statistics. Our population statistics is a treasure for all wanting to se how substances, food, pollution etc influence health and/or age over large populations. But there is an abyss greater than Hell between those ‘birth-numbers’ and this new ‘genetic branding’ of individuals. We’ve had a slightly moronic right wing coalition for some time now. You know, the kind with - Deep -Leader -Visions-Of –Honor-and-Prosperity - And –No- Ugly Income Tax-. (Although not that good at defining for whom those tax-reductions really are meant). Not that our opposite number, ‘The Socialdemocrats’, have had that much clearer vision lately. But the real reason for such laws to pass must lie deeper than that I think. A moral Inertia perhaps? People believing that freedom is a thing of the genes, or, of the past? “-You know, with the right genes everything is possible.” says the optimist, “Premature dementia too?” asks he…

(Drugs in the water system you say?  Hmmm, ah, no. . . well, thinking of it again? .  – you’re sure? )

There are still some statements that seems truer than others. Like ‘The only thing needed for evil to reign is for a good man to look away’ and that other. ‘Any society ready to give up a little liberty to earn some security will deserve neither, and loose both.’ Isn’t that what we all are doing today? Exchanging those rights for ‘security’? We are the only one paying more than lip-service to those ideals, well, at least we used too.  “Not only is life a bitch, now she’s dropping puppies too.” Kind of to the point I think. And please, don’t see this last as a sexist remark. It would sound downright silly if I changed ‘bitch’ to ‘male dog’ and ‘she’ to ‘he’. I’m afraid it would lose all kind of, ah, ‘moral coherence?

If you don’t agree, consider the McCarthy era in the fifties. How many was it that refused to name others as ‘communist sympathizers’ there? One? Ten? A hundred? The question you might ask yourself is under what circumstances you will want to stand by your choices, or non-choices, to yourself and to your kids and kin. Do you really want to be in that position? Explaining how you found it best to do nothing? And if you find this ‘self questioning’ a moot idea then I will feel free to suspect that you’ve joined what Stalin used to see as ‘useable dupes’. Similar to those believing that ‘communism’ and ‘Stalinism’, or for that case the whole era of Soviet rule, stood for the exact same ‘ideals’.  Or that only ‘pure capitalism and the free market’ can lead to a ‘free society’? ‘Democracy’ on the other hand I find a good start, but as we can see by that DNA-example, no real guarantee of anything. It all comes down your complacency with yourself, your ‘social stature’ and what you define as ‘freedom’?  Your ‘Freedom of greed’ or ‘Freedom of speech’? ‘Freedom of greed’ may be a subset of ‘Freedom of Speech’, but I doubt that the opposite is true.  To that you can add those ‘weapons’ drifting through countries and hands I never wanted or expected to see them in. Heard about that Russian boat bordered in Swedish waters by masked men, presenting themselves as ‘police’?  Wonder why and what that was about? Nuclear, biological, chemical? What made it that important to stop? Or was it a hijack? Only rockets. . right?

And my discussion won’t consider what psychological and moral lasting effects this kind of ‘reclusive strategy’ relative third world countries will have on us residing on the ‘sunny side’, ah, not that good choice, ‘industrial side’ then? Also, to put the shoe on the right foot, it was after all us ‘rich’ countries that is the major ‘delinquents’ creating the pollution we see today, not that we knew before. Today former ‘third world’ countries like China, India, Asia, Africa, South America,, Muslim countries etc, are doing their very best (read worst) to come up to, or even surpass our pollution levels. Like told last year, in China building a coal-driven power plant every nine days. Can you hear a clock ticking somewhere? And South Africa? 95 % coal powered, and India. You think those countries will accept to dismantle their energy production so not to dirty the environment more than we already did? Well, I guess the devil have massive laughing fits reading that..


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #33 on: 20/09/2009 17:49:06 »
I’m also tired of those hugely ‘brained’ economic thinkers, so incredibly far from reality. Our firmest sages, and high priests of the ‘economy’. I think we’re just like the climate, unpredictable, ever heard that butterfly’s wings flap? You did recently when your ‘economy’ took a dive.  And believing that you can ‘scheme’ against nature, pipes to the seas and pipes in to the land and factories, taking up CO2, burying it down deep in earth ‘sinks’? A little like we dream to do with our radioactive wastes, but now at your every corner. ‘Idiot proof’ you say? Idiotic I say. A whole Earth of burying? To much Jules Verne as a youngster perhaps? And what billions of billions this will cost I don’t know, I saw a number nearing ten million million dollars as a estimate on what it had cost just to buffer the economy this time (BBC) at our recent recession, most of it from us taxpayers (State) guaranteeing the institutions continuos  ‘profit’. And recent economic ‘statements’ I’ve seen seem to compare the economy to some disease, ‘stable for now’? I could write a book on how banks ‘secure’ themselves using each other to present you new ‘securities’ blindfolding the public, but I guess most of you know it already. It’s just another example of ‘faith’ and the ‘the Emperors new clothes’ (H. C. Andersen). But I know that you are looking at it all the wrong way here. It’s not about money anymore, it’s a ‘turnabout’ for all countries. And some industries will die, and good riddance to them says I, and new ones will come. It’s a whole world of change for the better.

Want another example of how your ‘economy’ will be saved today? Ever heard about Australia? Yeah, down under mate. Well they’ve just had their warmest winter ever, not even one mm of rain for the first eight months this year 2009. Outside Australia (ocean) there are natural Gas deposits waiting for the picking. To transport this gas you either need pipelines or you will need to freeze it to around -161 C. The project ‘Gorgon’, sat in motion by Chevron, plans do to do just that with Exxon and Shell jumping on the train. So now you have super tankers on the seas with ‘super-cooled, super-concentrated natural gas’ (That’s what happens when it gets frozen. The density of a gas goes really up, way way up when it becomes a liquid..) . It is a disaster scenario waiting to happen. The leaks only need to be miniscule for the gas to start leak. But if we do it at sea, no one will notice, and Australians don’t care, right mate? That gas won’t hurt you? If anything happens it will go straight up, won’t it, warmed by the air, disappearing like? Remember those oilfields burning? Congratulations. As well as that probably is the better scenario than allowing the methane getting loose without it burning itself into CO2. Now, if you had a grain of common sense left in what’s commonly called our most important muscle, ah, above the navel that is. You might ask yourself. Why don’t they take it from North Carolina?

“All the energy America needs for the next 100 years lies under the sea off the coast of South Carolina.”
Just one problem: Digging it out might cause a global climate disaster.”


Methane is the principal component of natural gas, and massive amounts of it are trapped in reservoirs beneath the sea floor and under a layer of the ice-like substance. The scale of the resource is spectacular. By some estimates, methane hydrates contain more energy content than all other known fossil fuels combined.
Two small areas located roughly 200 miles off the coast of Charleston, S.C., contain enough methane to meet the country's gas needs for more than a century. And this is only one of at least two dozen similar reservoirs discovered in U.S. coastal waters since the early 1970s.

The paradox is that while gas can be extracted from methane hydrates, doing so poses potentially catastrophic risks. Methane hydrates are frozen water molecules that trap methane gas molecules in a crystalline, lattice-like structure known as a hydrate. Unlike normal ice, hydrate ice literally burns — light a match and it goes up in flames. As temperatures rise or pressure rates fall, the hydrate disintegrates and the water releases the gas. A substantial amount of evidence suggests that weakening the lattice-like structure of gas hydrates has triggered underwater landslides on the continental margin. In other words, the extraction process, if done improperly, could cause sudden disruptions on the ocean floor, reducing ocean pressure rates and releasing methane gas from hydrates.

A mass release of methane into the sea and atmosphere could have catastrophic consequences on the pace of climate change. More than 50 million years ago, undersea landslides resulted in the release of methane gas from methane hydrate, which contributed to global warming that lasted tens of thousands of years. "Methane hydrate was a key cause of the global warming that led to one of the largest extinctions in the earth's history," Ryo Matsumoto, a professor at the University of Tokyo who has spent 20 years researching the subject, told Bloomberg in December.

---End of quote---

So why don’t Chevron pooh it in its own ‘backyard’? As well as Exxon and Shell. To ‘difficult’? Or not so ‘popular’ perhaps? It’s easier in the oceans outside Australia, is it? More ‘private’ like? We already found methane running wild in the Arctic, and frankly, it scares the sh1t out of me. But let’s assume we’ll keep walking this path.. Short Time Survival.. As your kids grow old, and then their kids possibly too. (around one hundred years.. Btw: You Aussies are hoping for that sweet Sheila and some noisy kids too, right, well most of us do :) By then the writing on the wall will become all too clear, and your time all too late. Australia will then be one of the numerous places people migrates from to survive. So, to me there are no ‘compromises’ available. The estimates of sold cars for 2009 seems to be around fifty million new cars. And the amount of new CO2 we will get then? Don’t know, neither do I know how many of the old cars that went to the dump? twenty percent perhaps? Seven? Less? A lot of them that should have gone there here in Europe seems to have been sold by unscrupulous car dealers to East-Europe, and other places.  So if I seem to hear that voice… “Earth-mother tired, wants you to repent… NOW!” would that be understandable? Yep, I’m rather, ah, frustrated?  There has never before been anything done by humans that have changed the whole ecosystem in such a short time (Around some 200-250 years), except our pollution. And at that, all that could happily joined forces in spewing it out, and still do. So now we expect us to reverse the same in? What, fifty? A hundred years,? By more worthless ‘Kyoto treaties’ or? At the same time keeping all our industries viable and our consuming, that meaning.. Economy, the same, or bigger? Hoping that we are in time? Like building CO2-leading pipelines everywhere?.. Hey, now I know where they got that idea from, them absolute geniuses, oh yes :) Watching that ‘screen saver’ on their computer of course, you know the one with pipelines getting drawn all the time. And all of those loudmouths guaranteeing you, the consumer, ‘Your God-Given Right To Consume’.. Come on. If you find my views strange, what do you then find those dreamers to be? Aliens?

“WE Have Come To Save You” Ah, that explains it..


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #34 on: 20/09/2009 17:50:26 »
" China’s problem has become the world’s problem. Sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides spewed by China’s coal-fired power plants fall as acid rain on Seoul, South Korea, and Tokyo. Much of the particulate pollution over Los Angeles originates in China, according to the Journal of Geophysical Research. " And according  to Greenpeace "China's reliance on cheap coal to fuel its economy cost a hidden $248 billion last year (2007) through damage to the environment, strain on the health care system and manipulation of the commodity's price." And please understand that this study doesn't concern itself with the hidden costs pertaining the environmental impacts (climate changes) here. And it doesn’t help my mood much reading what those mighty brains of economical thinkers see. China ‘helping’ the world economy to stabilize. Although, we didn’t ‘plan’ this global warming, we just did what we thought we had to do to create better ‘living standards’, right? Well, greed and guns might have helped show us the fastest ‘ways’ but it did ‘uplift’ our standard of living . And so acts China today. In fact they seem to be walking in our exact footsteps, don’t they. And we like to tell China as well as India that this is a ‘bad bad’ thing, don’t we :) 

But do they thank us I ask?  Do they? Those rapscallious, ah, rascals?

They too feel the pressure and expectations mounting from their teeming masses I guess, everyone want that fridge, and that car, and that new telly, and mobile, and.. Their ‘leaders’ don’t really have a choice I think, especially in China with its closed hierarchic society and wide spread corruption, its either that or more and more civil insurrections to come. I have more hope for India there in fact, at least they have a democracy working for them. But we ‘smart western people’ make real sure to lock up all energy saving technology in strong patents don’t we, cheap efficient technology and biological, genetic ‘innovations’. Doing gene research but not even caring for stopping malaria as there is no ‘real market’ for it. Instead we look for the genes for overweight, don’t we. As being the real ‘threat to society’ :) And in America they can ‘patent’ your genes too, so stop thinking they are yours just because you’re born with them, better cough up that ‘rental money’ or . . “We’ll have your lungs, boy.” I mean, how else can we ever come out ‘on top’? Giving them patents away, what a preposterous thought. “You want to lead us to ruin?” “Nay, from the edge.” Said he.

In all scenarios made people will starve as the warming gets worse and the ‘deserts’ picks up their pace. Lands will stop producing, and when enough people starve and starts to migrate then that ‘former similarity of outlook’ shared with us might go unheeded by those surviving. Imagine ‘Palestinian’ refugee camps inhabited by the tens of millions instead. I’m thinking that those folks might not remember us too fondly. Instead I fear that they might, just might, blame it as originating from..  You know, like wanting to.. Get even? Especially as we already have started to close them out from our lands, Countries, life’s, trade treaty’s etc, ‘protecting’ ourselves and our trades, in the process creating an even worse situation for them . Ever read the old testament? It’s in the first half of the Christian bible and I tend to think that it describes that primeval human ‘motivation’ quite well. How did it go? ‘An eye for an eye’. I understand why we don’t want to face this problem though. It’s both impersonal, meaning difficult to relate to and just too friggin’ big. It’s the whole planet that’s gone haywire if you think the same as me. And the way some papers suggest you to give ‘new years eves’ promises’ of starting to ‘sort garbage’ to limit global warming? Ah, those, excuse my wording here folks, jackasses makes it even worse to realize the seriousness of our situation as it now seems to come out to planning your wardrobe better with natural fibers, buy a newer car, recycle more, etc, etc. And then everything will become well. . Sure, and Santa is waiting at the North-pole.. Having a vodka on the rocks with his reindeers.  No, he can’t be, can he?. . I mean, the ice, won’t it be gone? .

“Hell, can’t he take it straight then, like a real man?” 
Soon we’ll know for sure.

Is Santa is Finnish or not?
Will he ‘straighten it out’, or will he migrate south?
Will he then introduce polar bears there? Or only reindeers?
And what are the legal limits for vodka drinking when driving reindeer carriages, air-wise?
For Santa & Rudolph? (the red nosed reindeer, a seriously bad sign that nose.)


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #35 on: 20/09/2009 17:51:19 »
Some scattered proofs for global warming ‘really’ taking place.

1. According to 3,146 scientists in a recent U.S. survey  a "vast majority of the Earth scientists surveyed agree that in the past 200-plus years, mean global temperatures have been rising and that human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures."

2. According to a study "by the U.S. Geological Survey and involving the University of Colorado at Boulder and Oregon State University as well as other research institutes indicates tree deaths in the West's old-growth forests have more than doubled in recent decades, likely from regional warming and related drought conditions. And according to another study the “forests in the pacific northwest are dying twice as fast as they were 17 years ago”

But we still have our tropical rainforest's, don't we. Here is some good guess work about the importance of them. "Tropical forest trees are absorbing about 18 percent of the CO2 added to the atmosphere each year from burning fossil fuels, substantially buffering the rate of climate change." But on the other hand. "If deforestation continues at current rates, scientists estimate nearly 80 to 90 percent of tropical rainforest ecosystems will be destroyed by the year 2020. This destruction is the main force driving a species extinction rate unmatched in 65 million years."  And as all other things those numbers is leaning to the optimistic side.

And.. " Pollution filled brown clouds may be causing as much warming as greenhouse gasses over southern Asia and threatening the water supply of Ganga, the Yangtze, and Indus with major adverse impact on the areas the rivers serve, researchers say. In a study supported by the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), researchers found that the clouds of aerosol particle are contributing to the potentially devastating effects of retreating Himalayan glaciers. "The rapid melting of these glaciers, the third-largest ice mass on the planet, if it becomes widespread and continues for several more decades, will have unprecedented downstream effects on Southern and Eastern Asia," the study concludes.

"This is a big topic of conversation in India. Much of the water supply of north and central India is from major rivers fed by glaciers in the Himalayas and the supply would be adversely impacted if the retreat of glacier continues," the author of the study David Winker of the Nasa Langley Research Center in Virginia said. The hope lies in reducing this pollution, which, combined with the heating effect of greenhouse gases, is enough to account for the retreat of Himalayan glaciers observed in the past half century, with serious implications for such famed rivers as the Ganga, Yangtze and Indus, the chief water supply for billions of people in India, China and other South Asian countries, the study notes." As well as Greenland, and the Arctic losing ice at a ever increasing pace. Btw: Antarctica have started too. It’s measurable now and that, my friend, that’s a very bad sign for us all. You do know that waves in the ocean moves faster now? Due to the accumulated heat from the CO2 warming the oceans. And that hurricanes is worse, all storms will be, everywhere. The weather will become very unpredictable as the atmosphere constantly is pushed up to new energy (heat) levels, snow where you don’t expect it, extremely rainy summers in other places with clouds lowering the average temperature, drought and famish in others. And it won’t be to the better, no matter what tropical fantasies you might have. Those clouds won’t stop any global warming, and the desert will finally migrate to your place too, but then again. I don’t expect us to be there to see it.

( And no, it’s not ‘solar warming’ even though the sun cycles /spots do have a effect..
It would be real strange if the sun didn’t have a effect, wouldn’t you agree.
I mean, wherever did you think ‘summer’ came from? )
And finally, a look at the real ‘killer of life’.

"Originally thought to occur only in the outer regions of the Solar System where temperatures are low and water ice is common. Significant deposits of methane clathrate have been found under sediments on the ocean floors of Earth. "


“We had a hectic finishing of the sampling programme yesterday and this past night," said Dr Gustafsson from the Russian research ship Jacob Smirnitskyi. "An extensive area of intense methane release was found. At earlier sites we had found elevated levels of dissolved methane. Yesterday, for the first time, we documented a field where the release was so intense that the methane did not have time to dissolve into the seawater but was rising as methane bubbles to the sea surface. These 'methane chimneys' were documented on echo sounder and with seismic [instruments]." At some locations, methane concentrations reached 100 times background levels. These anomalies have been seen in the East Siberian Sea and the Laptev Sea, covering several tens of thousands of square kilometers, amounting to millions of tons of methane, said Dr Gustafsson. "This may be of the same magnitude as presently estimated from the global ocean," he said. "Nobody knows how many more such areas exist on the extensive East Siberian continental shelves."

------End of quote--

You see, as we ‘speak’ the methane in the Siberian tundra and various other arctic cold water deposits is already being released in our atmosphere, yep, we’re there measuring it. This ‘methane bomb’ is primed and its fuse is smoking. So the new question becomes twofold. How big are those deposits, ‘big enough’ that they in their turn will warm up the other oceans deeper methane deposits too? And If so, how can we stop it? Methane have already been observed released in deep waters. One off the coast of Norway, one off the coast of North Carolina, and probably elsewhere too. And remember that methane producing bacterias exist in the Perma frost on land too. As well as hydrates under the ground. Hydrates will be created by the combination of a low temperature (around 0 C) and pressure, depending on the pressure surrounding it can remain stable at up to 18 C. So take away the pressure and it will rise but not as oil do.

Remember that the 'permeability' of a gas is higher than that of water (water’s denser). It will find 'ways' out everywhere, land as sea. In fact, estimates are that more than 10% of the world’s hydrates are located on-shore in arctic permafrost; and a sizable — although not quantified — amount are in relatively shallow arctic seas. These are susceptible to melting from warming. And as we know, the polar regions are warming faster and will get hotter than the global average. So a sizable amount of the methane trapped in hydrates is vulnerable to release by warming.

---Quote---Arctic Methane TimeBomb ready to go off---


Methane is a greenhouse gas that is 60-70 times more potent than carbon dioxide (CO2) over a twenty-year
period (or 25 times over a hundred-year period). Human-caused methane emissions are currently
contributing some 20-30% of the observed global warming effects. These include: Energy,
Landfills, Ruminants (Livestock), Waste treatment, and Biomass burning.

However, there are two additional sources of methane that are just now bubbling to the surface.
One source is the methane hydrates (also called clathrates) that have been frozen since the last ice
age in the permafrost lands of Russia, Alaska and Canada, but are now being released as the
permafrost melts. In addition, the methane hydrates, which have been long stored in the cold Arctic
Ocean seabed, are now being released as the ocean temperature rises.

Estimates of the land based hydrates estimates range from 0.8 to 1 gigaton, for the sea-based
hydrates in the Arctic total 1.5 gigatons of carbon, Recent research carried out in 2008 in the Siberian Arctic has shown millions of tons of methane being released, apparently through perforations in the seabed permafrost, with concentrations in some regions reaching up to 100 times normal. Most of the thawing is believed to be due to the greatly increased volumes of meltwater being discharged from the Siberian rivers flowing north. Current Arctic methane release has previously been estimated at 0.5 Megatons  (500 000 tons) per year, but now it appears to be increasing rapidly. Shakhova et al (2008) estimate that not less than 1,400 gigatons of Carbon is presently locked up as methane and methane hydrates under the Arctic submarine permafrost, and 5-10% of that area is subject to puncturing by open taliks.

They conclude that "release of up to 50 gigatons (fifty thousand millions ton) of predicted amount of hydrate storage [is] highly possible for abrupt release at any time". That would increase the methane content of the planet's atmosphere by a factor of twelve, which is equivalent in greenhouse effect to a doubling in the current level of CO2.

----------End Quote…..By Jim Stewart, PhD, October 6, 2008,-----

Add to that a possible ‘convection-cycle’, up and down in the atmosphere of at least fifty years (An optimistic ‘best guess’).That means that what ever we ‘push up’ today is ‘earmarked’ to come down and ‘help us breath’ for at least the next fifty years. So even if all stopped today we probably wouldn’t see any reclining effects for something like thirty years (my guess only) and, we’re not even sure how long this cycle can be, some people speaks about a hundred years for CO2 in the atmosphere. There is also the fact that as our ‘heat-sinks’ like oceans and land get saturated (filled up) with CO2 its ‘residence time’ in the atmosphere will increase, to even become infinite if our heat-sinks turn to sources, letting of their accumulated CO2 as the warming get worse. Did you get that? We would be as doomed even if we tried that insane scheme of drawing CO2 pipe-lines into Earth to hide our wastes? Am I getting through here? What it states is that we must stop the CO2 sources, not try to bury them after producing it. I’m sure that you and me both wonder what that sub/arctic methane might do the clathrates frozen under the rest of our ‘ever warming’ oceans? When our mean (average) temperature jumps up due to arctic and tundra methane. To Antarctica and to our already fragile marine life, plankton, krill, reefs, and in fact to.. You.


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #36 on: 20/09/2009 17:52:20 »
And the oceans is one of our primary ‘sinks’ of heat created by that CO2 and methane pollution. But now they’re starting to get ‘satiated’ (filled up) The oceans near Antarctica are thought to have one of the healthiest appetites for greenhouse gases. Their surface waters can guzzle around 15 percent of all the carbon dioxide produced by people, which comes mostly from industry and automobile emissions. The new study found the oceans are mopping up only about 10 percent of carbon- oxide, requiring projections for future levels of greenhouse gases to be bumped up accordingly. " (from 2007) And what do you think will happen as the ice disappears from Greenland and the Arctic, leaving bare land to act as heat-sinks, not reflecting the heat away from Earth anymore.

And then we have Antarctica. It have started to loose ice too “Researchers used satellites to plot changes in the Earth's gravity in the Antarctic during the period 2002-2005. Writing in the journal Science, they conclude that the continent is losing 152 cubic km of ice each year, with most loss in the west”.  And a  study conducted by scientists at the University of Colorado at Boulder, uses a technique which has not been tried before: measuring gravity over Antarctica. “ When they fly over regions where there is lots of material below, such as mountain ranges, or where crustal rocks are more dense, they will register an increase in the Earth's gravity - tiny, but measurable.” (from 2006)


"Their orbits have a very large inclination, of 89 degrees in fact, so you get very good coverage over the Antarctic," said Isabella Velicogna, one of the Colorado team. "We see the entire ice sheet and measure the mass change of the entire ice sheet; then we look at the east and west separately," she told the BBC News website. Overall, Dr Velicogna's group found an annual decrease in ice sheet mass of 152 cubic km. There is a clear loss in the west, whereas the mass of the East Antarctic sheet appears to be constant. This loss of ice equates to an annual rise in the global average sea level of 0.4mm; by contrast, the total rise, due mainly to thermal expansion of seawater, is estimated at about 1.8mm per year. "With increasing temperatures you get increased precipitation, so what may happen is that ice in the interior grows and then at the coast you have mass loss. So what we found is that for the continent as a whole, the balance between the two is negative." The Colorado team plans to continue observations and analysis of Grace data until the mission ends, probably in 2009.

---------End of quote---

Now I will expect you to use that muscle between your ears.
West Antarctica was it? Loosing the most ice???

Read this excerpt from an old study (1997). One of the most ‘uncomfortable’ I know of.
In fact, as I have the link at hand why not read it all. It’s nicely written and easy to understand.
(Sea Level, Ice, and Greenhouses' a FAQ by Robert Grumbine.)


That West Antarctica can collapse much faster than Greenland relies on another oddity of the West Antarctic geometry. Most of the ice sheet base rests well below sea level (500 - 1000 meters below). The important oddity is that as you move further inward, the land is further below sea level. So, consider a point near the grounding line (the point on land where the ice shelf meets the ice sheet). Ice flows from the grounded part into the floating part. The rate of flow increases as the slope (elevation difference) between the two sections increases. Extra mass loss in the ice shelf means that the shelf becomes thinner (and lower) so more ice flows in from the ice sheet. This makes the ice sheet just a little thinner. _But_ at the grounding line, the ice sheet had just enough mass to displace sufficient water to reach the sea floor. Without that mass, what used to be ice sheet begins to float. Since the sea floor slopes down inland of the grounding line, the area of ice sheet that turns into ice shelf increases rapidly. More ice shelf means more chance for ice to be melted by the ocean.

The collapse mechanism has a mirror-image advance mechanism. Should there be net accumulation, the ice sheet/shelf can ground out to the continental shelf edge. Go back to near the grounding point. This time add some excess mass to the ice sheet/shelf. This thickens the system to ground ice shelf. The grounded ice shelf takes area away from the ocean ablation zone, which makes the mass balance even more in favor of accumulation. So the advance can also be a self- accelerating process. "

-------------End of quote---------------

Nope, there’s no Gym around, teaching you how to beat the sh1t out of it either. But you can try of course.
And you can forget any mean global “two degree C. raise of temperature” at the end of our century. I would start counting on, five. And believing that you, due to any degree in a school of whatever sort, are better adapted to ‘understand’ this problem will only leave you delusional. There is no one able to see what waits for us. Earth is like a ‘stable system’ balancing on a edge today. We are pushing her over that edge. When she goes, she will in time find a new ‘balance’. But that balance won’t be ours..

Some pollution (CO2) statistics today (2009)
(G77 consists of 130 developing countries.)

China 6 103 metric tons spread per 1339 ..million inhabitants
USA  5 752 metric tons spread per 307 ….million inhabitants
G77   4 569 metric tons  spread per 2464 ..million inhabitants
EEC  3 914 metric tons  spread per 492 …million inhabitants
India  1 510 metric tons spread per 1166 ..million inhabitants
Canada 545 metric tons spread per 34 …..million inhabitants.
Mexico  436 metric tons spread per 111 ..million inhabitants
Brazil   436 metric tons spread per 199 ...million inhabitants
Australia 372 metric tons spread per 21 ..million 0000 inhabitants
Japan 127 metric tons spread per 127 ….million inhabitants

Okay, but who consumes the highest percentage fossil fuels/year then? (CO2)

China 93 %
India 92 %
Mexico 92 %
USA  85 %
Australia 82%
Japan 82 %
Canada 66%
Brazil  60 %
EEC 58 %

(and South Africa of course, a 95% coal driven economy.)
« Last Edit: 20/09/2009 18:00:27 by yoron »


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #37 on: 20/09/2009 17:53:11 »
As for Eastern Europe? I don’t really know. But as we can see USA, Australia and Canada comes out on top in this list if you count per inhabitant. And Japan and the G77 countries seems to be the countries that spreads the least CO2 per inhabitant. China who wasn’t expected to pass USA pollution-wise for at least ten years is recently racing to the top followed by India that expect to triple its pollution to 2031. But it’s not a race anymore, it’s a countdown to your extinction. And as I see it, if you won’t face it then you’re the one killing your offspring, shouldn’t that mean ‘something’ for you? Killing your kids? But if so? If we don’t care even for that? Maybe it’s all for the good then, maybe we should leave place for a species that will treat Earth right. You don’t really need to build a spaceship to find that inhabitable planet to survive on. You’re already on it, the biggest and best spaceship you ever will travel in. But it seems as we can’t even learn how to flush its toilets? By the way? Which countries do you expect to take the first ‘hit’ from this pollution? My uneducated guess, first the G77 countries (we already can see it there).  And then shortly thereafter Australia, India, Pakistan ( near laying countries) and parts of China. Then us.

Another thing, thinking of it. Most people tend to ‘associate themselves’ with what they’re paid too, be that for good or bad. That makes most of ‘the papers’ exclamations rather dubious to me, as they are owned by interests who might not enjoy to much exposure of this problem. As all ‘Owners’ want their ‘portfolios’ to be arranged to order, in secure investments making them ‘money’, it’s so sickeningly human. And it may make the same papers present a slightly colored ‘truth’, also not wanting to ‘scare the public’ of course. Also the ‘Owners’ might feel that urgent need to arrange new secure ‘portfolios’ first, adapted to the ‘changing’ situation, before it’s to ‘late’... And to that we also can add the ‘politics’ of it, coloring what’s in reality is a problem containing no politics at all. If you’re drowning you don’t care for your lifeguards political views, do you? But in global warming here there seems to be an awful deal of political exposure. I’m not sure our changing climate will care for that though?
The problem we can do something about directly is CO2. And by that also delaying methane releases, and in the best scenario, stop it from happening. And as that old human adage say, ‘let’s do it to them before they do it to us.’

If it was my choice I would tell you to put your car away, but now.
And to stop all coal-based activities, industries etc, but now.
And stop using chemical fertilizers, but now.


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #38 on: 20/09/2009 17:53:55 »

In fact there are a lot of things humanity could do, even today, that we won’t.
Because that would ‘hurt’ our ‘God-given right to be greedy and progress’
(couldn’t help myself:)

We seem as kids, stymied by short-time egotism. And just like unruly kids we refuse to accept when ‘Mother’ have had enough. The worst as well as most ironic thing though, to me that is, is what we seem prepared to die for. A symbol, not a resource, just a symbol we find convenient.


Money is sacred, if it will ‘cost’ then nobody wants it. If it means that some industries will suffer then it’s wrong. If it mean that my paycheck/stocks will go down :) I don’t want it. And if it mean I won’t have a job? No way… On the other tentacle, it do represent something ‘real’. Earth’s natural resources. Fertile soil, wild life, oil, minerals, the rainforests, marine life, drinkable water, diverse fragile ecology’s etc. And all of this is disappearing, every day, every minute of your life.

You are getting robbed.
And you’re the one robbing your kids.

Protecting ‘money’ we kill its foundations. Finding out ‘real resources’ is disappearing we go into a ‘feeding frenzy’. Grabbing what resources there be left, exploiting to protect, what else, our sacred ‘economy’…
And your holy right to over-consume of course. The eleventhy-elevetnh amendment to all ‘constitutions’ on Earth today, be they dictatorships or ‘Democratic’.

Trusting any ‘free market’ seems sheer stupidity in this case.  And I’m not that sure about the government(s) and the UN, EEC either. We could use ‘one man/one voice- democracy’ here, not the ‘representative’ kind. No friggin ‘Superheroes’ that tells me what to think, or who tells me that ‘this is what you meant by voting me in’. Nope, that’s not what I meant. Why not try common sense for a change. As we could, using the internet as our platform voting. So that’s a hope, that we use the net as it could be used. But we seem to restrict it instead. It’s dangerous, isn’t it? Just as China treats it, policing its use to keep all the ‘right thoughts’ lined up. But in the ‘Western democracies’  it’s the ‘industry’s’ that keeps on pushing for it.

“- Leave such a ‘resource’ in the hands of the public! What a waste.”
“- Regulate it I say, think of our innocent kids. And remember, our profits is your profit (Big sincere smile).”

And with the governments one tiny step behind?
Let me see, ‘representative Democracy’, was it?
So now I’m an ‘errand boy’ for the industry, am I?

And from their point of view I guess the Internet is ‘dangerous’. How will any Emperor ever be expected to keep ‘any new clothes’ on with so many ‘peeping toms’ out there? All screaming that he’s naked. And what kind of ‘government’ would it be if a common man could ‘rule’ directly on national, or international, decisions?

“Hell, they can’t even knit their shoelaces. . .”

Nope. We need good laws protecting the individual. We need a working bureaucracy, populated by intelligent beings that cares for those rights. And we need to make sure that nobody sits to long at any nexus of power. We need the law, the ideas of freedom, but all the ‘stuffing’ building it today? We can make without that. As long as we all have the same vote.. Instead of a assembly of politicians we could have a system where you had to do certain ‘governmental jury duties’ over a year or two of your life. A citizens duty if you like. And yes, you would need to be updated on the issues in question so a lot would hang on those doing research and presenting it to you, that’s where the bureaucracy would come in and their integrity would be tested, and your internet too. And you would be paid, not like a football-star but a decent wage for your work. Same as politics work today too, well, except for the wages perhaps.  And no, we could make a system where you have several groups working on the issues, and then use only some (representative:) part of the voters, randomly chosen. That should minimize the probability of ‘pressures’ by ‘interested parties’. What we wouldn’t have in such a system would be all those ‘secret handshakes/deals’ between ‘powerbrokers’ and all that money ‘greasing the wheels’. Most of the questions is about common sense anyway as I see it, and you would learn a lot doing it. And I guess my view here is a nightmare to all collecting ‘power’, of any kind, be it ‘democratic’ or totalitarian. I’ve been hoping for people to see the possibilities for quite some time now? We have Secure cryptography (open and closed ‘keys’) and that combined with ‘one vote - one man’ and the Internet?  It’s actually simple, if we would use it. Yes, you would need a computer, a decent web-camera and some software. And if you didn’t have it I guess the state could offer you one as a job-perk. It’s all solvable, and you know what. I think it would be democratic too. And on big issues we would need a larger representation of voters, on some all would be required to vote. That’s what real freedom is, giving you the possibility to make a difference, not your ‘representative’. It’s strange how fast ‘elite’s’ incompetence-declare all others. If you have a vote, it should be yours.

“Hell, he can’t even knit his shoelaces. . .”

“Wha’da’ya’mean, …Could too?”


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #39 on: 20/09/2009 17:54:49 »
And then what? If we still didn’t care even after such a ‘vote’?  Well, we’ve made our decision ‘democratic’ for real, at least. And noticed too I presume. Blaming ignorance or the governments unwillingness to face the ‘truth’ shouldn’t be a excuse anymore, by anyone, be it industries or you. “Hey, nobody told me..” Some real ‘disturbed ones’ may even expect that the ‘rich side’ of the world just have to ‘hunker down and wait it out’. I don’t expect that to work, even though the poor countries will be the ones taking the first hits. If the methane gets loose under our oceans we’re all ‘dead meat’. I’m not joking this time, I guarantee that humans will be gone from this planet if that happens. A lot of people studying geology and Earth’s history says it too. At the Permian-Triassic extinction event . (Around 280 to 230 million years ago) and at the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum (63-40 millions years ago), the beginning of what life we know today, this scenario seems to have happened twice already.

Or turn it the other way around. Our vote there said ‘Stop’. Some countries rulers says ‘No’. Well, then we’ll be at each others throats just that tiny bit faster,. Nice slogan btw. ‘Say no, save the species.’ And the ‘opposite’ ‘Say no to save the Species’ You better choose your sign now :) That last one is for you doubters, you can get it both ways there, depending on how you read it.

At the Permian-Triassic extinction around 96 percent of all sea life and 70 percent of Earth’s land animals died, To be gone , never, ever, coming back, and furthermore, it is also the only known mass extinction of insects. 57% of all families and around 83% of all related gene groups/materials were killed. And we’re still paying our dues for that one in a poorer Earth, reduced genetic materials etc, although it happened a quarter of a billion years ago. And they had an abundance of life to spend, we don’t, due to our exploitation of natural resources. So, what do you prefer? Go down stating ‘my car is my castle’ or learn how to treat Earth in a sustainable manner? That meaning that we in some ways will have to back up our so called ‘progress’ when it comes to the more environmental damaging processes. Even live on ‘rations’ for a time until we’ve given Earth some chance to restore our ‘larder’. And perhaps stop ‘making’ more people than our Earth can feed. One human, one kid. Non negotiable. For some ten, twenty generations at least, that should help too. As Ban Ki-Moon (UN general secretary) expressed it at a speech in Geneva recently (freely translated from a Swedish source). ‘With one foot on the accelerator we are making our way to the abyss’. Kind of catchy, don’t you think. But hey, ain’t that guy boring? He’s certainly not very charismatic as that brilliant Norwegian diplomat, ever so graciously, informed us.

“ Well lady, I don’t give a flying sh* about that.
I do care about if he’s right though. You should too, thinking about it.” 

Then again. What was it that’s making Norway so rich in this day and time?
Brains or Oil? Go figure…


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #40 on: 20/09/2009 17:55:35 »

But acting as I expect we will, with ‘short-time solutions’ sending what ‘relief help’ we’re ready to afford and then righteously ask ourselves ‘what more could we do?’ It will soon enough become like planning for how to ‘defend’ yourself from ‘suicide-bombers’. Quite difficult and leaving an extremely bad taste in your mouth, ethically as well as morally. Festung (that’s Bulwark for you:) Europe and Festung America, and you my friend as ‘Super/wo/man’ proudly defending our western civilization. Ask any ‘normal’ Israeli how (s)he fell about the restrictions forced upon them, and then try asking those not belonging, it’s a ugly unhappy situation for all involved. On the other tentacle, I’m sure that there already are ‘think-tanks’ looking at this, as well as how to best present the Arctic catastrophe as something ‘good for you, the ‘consumer’ And Santa too. “Yes Santa, the South-pole is soo roomy, you will like it there. Don’t you worry about your vodka, there’s still ice.” .. Did I hear someone call us myopic? ..

Of course, there is also that really good chance that it will lead to all out wars between nations as everyone’s living room shrinks. Can I blame those ‘poor nations’ taking to arms? They don’t have a choice, do they? Except to stay where they are, and lie down to die.. Perhaps they will ‘fight it out’ with each other before coming to us.. Don't rightly know there? If we’re ruthless enough, it may very well be us that keeps ‘feeding’ them with cheap arms, or even give them away to ‘simplify’ the ‘cleansing’ of mass migrations between poor countries. And to stop that further ‘polluting’ by those finding themselves without other means to keep warm and feed. You know, turning that blind eye to our armament industries. Don’t you give me that innocent look buster, we already do it, only depending on what ‘values’ we believe in for the moment. It’s just another tiny step for us. It even has its own name.. ‘Realpolitik ‘ (or ‘cannon boat politics’)

Still, if there is enough able and willing to make that stand for ethics and those newfangled ideas of ours, like ‘moral values’ and ‘sharing’, there might be some slight chance for us all, and if not? Well, good riddance to it all. Earth’s time-count is definitely not ours, she can ‘wait’ fifty thousand years, or a million, before starting anew, creating that concept of ‘intelligence’, preferably incorporating the concept of ‘wisdom’ too that time. And you know what, to her you’re not really that ‘unique’, and she don’t care for your nationality either, furthermore, she has a sharp sense of humor. Don’t you too find that somewhat embarrassing? The way she gets rid of us I mean. Death by ‘farting’? It’s kind of hilarious, fitting perhaps considering over-consuming, but hilarious in a slightly sick way.. And while you’re out there ‘consuming’, do try to remember what ‘economy’ really stands for, rich as poor. Some clothes, somewhere to sleep, food for today, and food for tomorrow. It’s really that simple, it’s only us forgetting it, repeatedly. And seen so, how much do you need?

.. Ah well, my views, --- Enough of Doomsday Prophesies.—

 And. Yes, I do have the sources for all citations I’ve done. Most of the links I’ve stated in ‘Global health’. Or if you look at what I wrote earlier on this site. As I said I’m ‘out of net’ for the moment so it’s a real hassle linking you. And the sources are ‘reputable ones’, by all ‘standards’. I’m too aware of the ‘paid debunking’ done on the Internet to risk my sources to be ‘only green ones’ That’s, if I may add, a real pain in the posterior with you American debunkers.  Everything seems to turn into ‘politics’ for you.

“And then Sir, he came back out from that Black Hole Sir, holding the blueprints for a perpetual machine!”
“So? be more pertinent to the real issues involved here Sir. Was he, or was he not I ask, a Liberal?” 

Politics may be a good thing at times, but some things, like survival, is not, really, a ‘political’ issue.
As Death and his scythe doesn’t, really, care for your political views.

( “No I say, go away, I’m a voting Democrat, go find you one of them Liberal’s.” :)

----------------------End of Conscience, well, sort of----------------

Btw: I reckon he’s Finnish..


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #41 on: 20/09/2009 17:56:48 »
My idea of 'time' is that everything is 'time' and that all we can observe is what happens after those 'transitions' expressing themselves as 'events' or 'causes and effects'. As the transitions takes place in themselves without any observers 'arrow of time' existing for the transitions, they can't be defined as other than 'indeterminate/nonexistent' to that observer. And that's what HUP seems to say to me. And it sounds quite weird to me too :) But, hey. What about one dimensional strings ? Maybe those are the mathematical foundations of what I think of as being ‘energy/time’? As for proving that all is 'time' I'm not sure on what type of experiments could show it, as all we can do is anchored through our 'arrow of time'. The only way I can think of, is observing what we can and draw conclusions through that deduced as 'missing'. In one way you might say that we, and the universe, is an expression of 'ideas' more than any secluded 'reality' that comes to be through that macroscopic arrow of time. On the other hand, what will it make of the concept of 'development' and 'free will' etc. if those assumptions were correct? 

To me they would stand as we always assumed them to be, realities of our world rather than 'ideas without form'. That goes back to my view stating that there is constant 'jumps' outside of our arrow of time creating what we observe. We exist –inside-> that arrow, and the observations we make as well as the arrow itself is the only thing 'valid' for our existence. That there might be other and wider explanations to us existing won’t change a thing about that. We are somewhat like goldfishes in a bowl. It doesn't matter that there are other stuff outside that bowl, they doesn't change the bowl. If it is so entanglements might just be a cause of something working behind that 'arrow' hiding its true process for us. Even at a quantum mechanical level without that timely arrow we still observe chains of events, those we can understand as they relate to our world of reason, and those that won't. A Feynman-diagram is still a worldly description making sense to us as you can see the chain creating that 'final effect' no matter which way you read it, and no matter what effect you choose to see as being the last.

Entanglement consists of the property of spin or polarization of two particles being connected, due to them consisting as one originally, but split by the use of a so called ‘beamsplitter’ f ex, a prism or a mirror reflecting half of the light falling in on it simultaneously allowing half to pass through, splitting the light .
And spin refers to the intrinsic angular momentum of a particle and the direction of its velocity. If the spin is aligned with the velocity it’s seen as having "positive helicity." If the spin is anti-parallel (oppositely directed) to the particles velocity (speed and direction) the particle will have a "negative helicity." If used on photons we instead talk about its polarization as all light is polarized, that’s why your sunglasses is ‘polarized’. To stop approximately half of the sunlight if I remember right. You can test it by having two polarized glasses rotating against each other. At some point of rotation no light will be able to pass through.


The spin of a particle is quantized, so when we make a measurement at any specific angle we get only one of the two results UP or DOWN. This was shown by the famous Stern/Gerlach experiment, in which a beam of particles (atoms of silver) was passed through an oriented magnetic field, and it was found that the beam split into two beams, one deflected UP (relative to the direction of the magnetic field) and the other deflected DOWN, with about half of the particles in each. This behavior implies that the state-vector for spin has just two components, vUP and vDOWN, for any given direction v. These components are weighted and the sum of the squares of the weights equals 1. (The overall state-vector for the particle can be decomposed into the product of a non-spin vector times the spin vector.) The observable "spin" then corresponds to three operators that are proportional to the Pauli spin matrices:

Photons too have quantum spin (they are spin-1 particles), but since photons travel at the speed c, the "spin axis" of a photon is always parallel to its direction of motion, pointing either forward or backward. These two states correspond to left-handed and right-handed photons. Whenever a photon is absorbed by an object, an angular momentum of either +h/2p or -h/2p is imparted to the object. Each photon "in transit" may be considered to possess, in addition to its phase, a certain propensity to exhibit each of the two possible states of spin when it interacts with an object, and a beam of light can be characterized by the spin propensities (polarization) and phase relations of its constituent photons. Polarization behaves in a way that is formally very similar to the spin of massive particles. In a sense, the Schrodinger wave of a photon corresponds to the electro-magnetic wave of light, and this wave is governed by Maxwell's equations, which tell us that the electric and magnetic fields oscillate transversely in the plane normal to the direction of motion (and perpendicular to each other).

It may be worth noting that light polarization and photon spin, although intimately related, are not precisely synonymous. The photon's spin axis is always parallel to the direction of travel, whereas the polarization axis of a wave of light is perpendicular to the direction of travel. It happens that the polarization affects the behavior of photons in a formally similar way to the effect of spin on the behavior of massive particles. Polarization itself is often not regarded as a quantum phenomenon, and it takes on quantum behavior only because light is quantized into photons.

--------End of quote-------------


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #42 on: 20/09/2009 17:57:39 »
There are other more ‘obscure’ ideas of how to create a ‘split’, but the ‘idea’ hovering behind it all I believe to be as described here. That as that as soon as you measure the spin/polarization of one of those ‘split’ particles the other particle will ‘fall out’ to begetting the opposite spin/polarization. How can it know this ‘twins’ choice? What really bugs people is the proofs showing this phenomena happening ‘instantly’, no matter how far apart they are. In other words, ‘distance’ becomes a meaningless factor having no relevance to the phenomena. As we know that light have a ‘barrier’ for its ‘speed’ this phenomena questions the concept of SpaceTimes arrow. There are few things known to be ‘instant’. One I know of is the supposed ‘instant’ acceleration of photons which in fact is a statement saying that there is no ‘acceleration’ at all. The other I know of is entanglement, and a third I presume to be quantum tunneling, although there I’m not sure. To me entanglement and the photons ‘instant’ acceleration is two signs pointing the same way. They both question or ideas of ‘distance’ and their combination ‘dimensions’ creating SpaceTime’. But there is another interesting question to my eyes, If I consider a light wave (photon) and an entanglement as needing to be containing ‘information’ to be said to be part of our arrow of time? What do that make to the part of a light beam going ‘FTL’? And to that ‘distant’ part of the entanglement that only will ‘fall out’ under our observation of the near entanglement. They are there even without our observation as being ‘real phenomena’ inside SpaceTime. Or is SpaceTime some blend of ‘information’ and ‘non-information’? Remember that I defined SpaceTime as the part where you have that definition of ‘work being done’ for this question. Do SpaceTime then contain both? Can it have parts of it that in fact doesn’t fall under ‘cause and effect’ and not are doing any ‘work’ under our arrow of time, but exist observable to us never the less? Why?

It is after all our 'arrow of time' that creates what we experience as 'distance'. And keeps it true even in QM, no matter your choice of  reading that 'time-line' (beginning and end). Take the veil of cause and effect away from your eyes and what have you left. Disjointed 'processes' superimposed on each other without beginning and end? And that is what’s on that ‘dimension less’ level hiding behind space. Everything’s there and we achieving what’s called our free will, freedom of choices, constantly constructing our ‘future’ through them. And I don’t expect us to proof it other than ‘negatively’ by observing what’s ‘not’ there in our experiments. I have always considered gravity to be a ‘field’ of sorts but not the other ‘forces’ we had, but now I’m starting to wonder as all ‘propagating’, if seen like I do here, becomes..? That as it consist of something outside observable ‘time’ like a thinly woven gauze covering all ‘distances’ made to vibrate with what ‘propagation’ we observe inside our ‘arrow of time being those ‘waves/gravitons etc’.’ In fact already existing at all points even though not ‘there’ for us until we somehow ‘disturb’ it. And so it may be with all propagation of force if so. Being all there and at all ‘times’ but without ‘distances/sizes’ being involved.  And as for how it utter itself to involve/create ‘distance’ and a resemblance of order?

Yep, that one freaks me out too..
The only thing coming to mind is those processes that seems to go from the simple to the complex.

And to create a ‘linear process acting from ‘A’ to ‘B’’ from such ideas I think you first need to decide that time can’t have a arrow, although we observe it otherwise in our ‘closed case?’. It’s possibly possible :) to define mathematically, either if you see it as a more ‘complex’ process falling out into a simplified reaction to create ‘distance’ and ‘propagate tracks’ in SpaceTime, or if you see it as a inherently simple ‘timeless’ process, acting increasingly more complex until it resolve itself inside our ‘arrow’ as something to us comprehended as ‘moving’. As all ‘growth’ I know of seems to make that statement, but then again, that’s like my view of a photons choosing the  ‘straightest/shortest line’ ‘traversing’ SpaceTime, isn’t it? It’s all a matter of interpretation. And thinking of all small movements I do in my daily life it boggles my mind how something without ‘distance’ can coordinate it all into such a seamless experience for me. But I can’t see a ‘simpler’ explanation, for now that is :) And whatever your idea is, it will have to consider all of mine ‘congestion’s’ too. Like mass, time, consciousness, distance (dimensions), ‘living’ and ‘dead’ things,  virtual photons etc. And then relate it in a comprehensible way to you moving in your daily life experiencing ‘reality’. As it otherwise won’t be a TOE (theory of everything) to me. As for how to see the Universe, if thinking like this, I would call this the ‘real dimensions’ existing. Not our 3D + times arrow  (distances) but the idea of something existing without ‘distances’ at all unfolding into our ‘dimensions’, and more? I also think that the border from where all ‘distances’ evolves lies somewhere around Planck size for us, or perhaps ‘particle size’ is the right word? So to travel faster than light you just have to accept that at one level you already are ‘everywhere’, the same as everything else existing in SpaceTime. And one question then will be how to define what it is that creates the ‘sub-set’s’(?)’ of SpaceTime. If we found out what creates distance perhaps we could find some way to manipulate it. Probably not to ‘teleport’ humans or even , ah, cats? Well, perhaps Schroedinger’s then, but no more I say.

. . .Maybe ‘information’?

And if that is right, there ‘already’  ‘messages’ waiting for us there.
We just need to learn how to read them, as for who’s sending them?
You? God? The ‘future’?

That loses its definition if so, doesn’t it.
And if everything will be ‘there’ when/if we succeeds in communicating, maybe we won’t succeed, ever.
Or maybe there will be some ‘rule’ disallowing us to read it all.

To sum it up, If distance is gone so is dimensions. without it time cease its arrows.
Then a photon takes up a whole universe and what you surmise to be life will be, just your divine madness :)
And ‘time’ will always be ‘now’. . .

(Don’t confuse that ‘now’ with the one some see to exist in SpaceTime though.
SpaceTime to me can’t have a ‘observable’ ‘now’ . Instead it have what’s called its ‘time cone’, like a flashlights light-cone, turned backwards from your future, growing bigger through its ‘history’. But its not you holding that flash-light, you’re always inside that light-cone and the ‘time’ you realize the ‘moment’ it’s already your ‘history’. The nearest we can come to a ‘now’ is the idea of it, never the significance of observing it. We do have a ‘future’ waiting, as well as our ‘history’ unfolding behind us but no consciousness can hold the ‘now’. We’re just not built for it, nothing ‘biological’ is :)

( Maybe one could see photons as champions of ‘now’, as they always are ‘there’? :)

We have another thing. Our ‘expectation/planning’ for the future, that always ‘push the envelope’ of SpaceTime.  Molding it into our ‘likeness’, if you like. But, what we can’t ever observe, does it really exist? We tend to build Science on the idea of ‘observable and repeatable’ don’t we? So what if its not ‘observable’ even though you find it to be ‘repeatable’ Like that abstraction, the ‘future’, always coming at you, but never the same.  Coming until your ‘best of, date’ expires.

And my final question.
If ‘times arrow’, according to my thoughts, don’t really exist?
What is it that makes it not so.

How, and why?


  • Guest
Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #43 on: 20/09/2009 17:58:34 »
If you’re looking for something more ‘sane’.
There is also ..That Idea.. that possibly is.. The ..Answer.. To it all..
Might it, I mean, could it possibly be

I've seen it presented in several works of great scientific value.
Defiantly better than mine :) Yes my friend, I've seen it proved..
Have a look at this.

- - - - - -

Pick a number between ten and a thousand.
Don't tell me what it is.

[Thinks... 575]

Add the digits together.
[5+7+5 = 17]

Add them again.

Add 3.

Subtract this from the original number.
[575-11 = 564]

Add the digits together.

Find the remainder left when you divide by nine.
(15 modulo 9 equals 6)

Square it.
[6*6 = 36]

Add 6.

"And the number in your head is ... 42?"


Now, you don't have to agree to anything of this.
Well, except 42 that is.

Let me prove it otherwise..
4/2*2= that's right.. 4Too, and correctly expressed in mathematical notation.. 42

In fact, I'm not that sure of what I’ve written either. Some of it I really hope to be wrong, but I doubt it is. Then again, I find myself being of two minds almost daylily. Does that make me a flaming schizophrenic? Nope, just twice as good, bad? ..Ah, whatever.. As that actor going politician said. “There will be time’ or was it “I’ll be back”?

We’ll see.

Ps: I do like comments, and if you keep them concise it will help.
And no, “Buthead” won’t cut it with me.

And as I have a extremely bad internet connectivity.
And as it take me ‘quite some time’ to see what you wrote.
And as it takes me even longer to deliver that reply you then so rightly deserve.

So, don’t count on me answering in time :)
« Last Edit: 20/09/2009 18:11:47 by yoron »

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #44 on: 21/09/2009 02:42:33 »

Information cannot be lost. Stephen Hawking finally retracted his statement on the information paradox, saying that black holes in fact tunnel the energy back into our own space and time.

Google it. I'm sure you will find plenty on the subject.

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #45 on: 25/09/2009 18:01:27 »
Well, it all depends on how you see it I guess? To my eyes we have two kinds of communication in SpaceTime. One where we 'interact' inside SpaceTime, the other one is what I deem to be 'one-way' only. And a black hole or a entanglement is both nice descriptions of that last idea :)

As the 'communication' Stephen Hawking refers to is a 'happening' outside or at the edge of the EV (event horizon) I still see it as a interaction with space more than with a Black Hole itself. It's a local effect not a 'far' effect if you see my drift? A singularity will not allow (two way) communication. If it does it will no longer be a singularity. To me it seems that one have to differ between what I see as 'sources' of a disturbance of 'equilibrium' and what acts on it. We both agree on that it is the Black Hole creating it though, but if you look at it as a 'rift' in SpaceTime having a one-way --> communication then that Black Hole will still be a 'singularity' and what we deem as 'communicating' should be searched for inside SpaceTime. So I'll keep to this, for now :)
« Last Edit: 25/09/2009 19:49:03 by yor_on »

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #46 on: 25/09/2009 18:24:40 »
Okay :)

Here is some more material. As usual I can’t give you the direct link but it’s from a pdf with the caption “All Matter Instantaneously Senses All Other Matter in the Universe”. And no author(s) in it which sort of P*es me off :) Again.. Because it’s just that kind of ‘essay’ that I love to read, well written and argumentative with interesting thought experiments.. So I’m condensing most of it and afterwards comes my questions and ideas. And no, I’m still without any internet which makes it quite hard to ‘argue’ comprehensible with you. So It’s still just an ‘essay’ I’m afraid. And as I said in the beginning, thoughts, not certainties. Yes, I will include my view on Global warming there too, even though it to me seem all to ‘true’, as well as late. (((Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t read them though :) At the very least it will give you some ‘direction’ in life ::)) Getting miffed and all. . Just follow that yellow brick road.

Let us continue with taking a historical look at ‘action over a distance’. Aristotle as well as later Galileo didn’t think that this phenomena could exist (Far action), and Galileo was very disappointed at Kepler who, due to his interest in magnetism, thought otherwise. “But among all the great men who have philosophized about this remarkable effect (the attraction between celestial masses), I am more astonished at Kepler than any other. Despite his open and acute mind, and though he had at his fingertips the motions attributed to the earth, he has nevertheless lent his ear and his assent to the moon’s dominium over the waters (tides) and to occult properties, and such puerilities.” With Einstein as another disciple of Aristotle. His EPR experiment tried to refute the idea, but as we read, it opened for ‘entanglements’ instead.

But this question is still not decided. Take a look at this experiment.


We have two horseshoe magnets sticking to the vertical sides of a copper plate. The magnets are held up, against the pull of gravity, by their attraction to each other and friction on the copper plate. If we wish to explain the attraction with modern physics, we have to call upon quantum electrodynamics (QED). One of the originators of QED, Richard Feynman [1.4], claimed it explains everything except gravitation and nuclear forces. Hence it ought to cover the attraction of two magnets. In QED, forces between particles of matter are mediated by the collision of photons with electrons and the accompanying momentum transfer. So streams of photons must leave each of the two magnets of figure 1.2, spontaneously and forever, and then pass through a copper plate, finally colliding with electrons at the surface and deep inside the opposite horseshoe magnets. A simple collision between two particles produces repulsion, therefore in order to generate attraction between the magnets, the photons must navigate around the magnets, turn and strike them in the back.

(The ‘horseshoes’ are placed against each other N-S  and S-N with a thin copperplate between them and the ‘QED photon trajectory’ will then leave one horseshoe, somehow travel outside the opposite horseshoe to turn and strike it from its back to create the needed attraction between them.)


This mechanism is so ludicrous that it will not be found discussed in textbooks. Nor will most professors mention it to a class of students.”

-------End of quote---

Now, think of that ‘Newtonian apple’ falling towards the center of Earth’s gravity. How did it know where that Earths-center was? Could it feel all those atoms creating Earth and from there locate the ‘center’? According to Newton it seems it should? On the other hand, in a ‘Einstenian’ universe the Aristotle’s principle stating that ‘matter can not act where it is not’ will still be true. The path that apple takes to the ground will be due to its geodesic path in a curved SpaceTime following the Newtonian forces of gravitation and inertia, also called ‘Einstein’s theory of local action’. So, looking at it this way we find two ‘visions of reality’ colliding. In the Newtonian universe the ‘spooky attraction of particles’ exists. In our ‘Einstenian’ it won’t. ‘Far action’ or ‘Local action’? Which one is ‘real’?

To my eyes both are correct. As I see it, if we have a distance-less background to all phenomena we can observe, then you will find Newton’s idea correct, but as we also inside our ‘arrow of time’ have the curved SpaceTime as described by Einstein then he too is correct and the apple will follow the effects he describes, and both do place the apple at the center of that mass. The main difference as I see it being that Newton’s idea of a unchanging ‘inelastic’ speed of light being wrong inside SpaceTime. That he never considered the possibility that light both could have a ‘true speed’ at the same time that it would be observed to keep to that speed no matter the relative motion of frames measuring it is nothing particularly strange, to make that sort of ‘jump’ without any pointers to build it on? So what some people like to see as a ‘statement’ of certainty from Newton is more a case of ‘missing information’ to me. And if we have a SpaceTime where both far and local action exist then the differences seems more to relate to ideas we haven’t defined yet, for example how entanglement is supposed to work no matter its distance? Although I’m not sure how to test that statement about entanglements ‘limitless distances’ experimentally, I have assumed it to be true in my essay, and so I will find ‘far action’ to be true for our apple, and the idea of it and Earth’s Atoms ‘interacting’ or as I say ‘observe’ each other. On the other hand Einstein’s concept of curved space and how mass /time /motion /distance interacts is also true and have a clearer definition inside SpaceTime than our Newtonian description which even though being ‘non-local’ to its nature still is found to be ‘most true locally’, as on Earth, if you see my drift.

To me both ideas seems closely related to my idea of ‘observers’ with Newton defining them as being without ‘distance’ as they communicate/interact directly and Einstein defining them as needing to follow SpaceTime geodesics, but in both cases we find them needing to exist inside our ‘SpaceTime’ to interact, then again you will have phenomena like entanglement that can ‘communicate’ over great distances instantly but without  being able to transmit what we call ‘information’. So my ‘observers’ needs then also to be defined by the information they interchange, and that’s why a Black Hole shouldn’t be a part of those ‘observers’ to me. If you somehow could prove that the ‘information’ coming from the possible hawking radiation wasn’t a product of interactions with ‘virtual particles’ inside SpaceTime, that is, outside or on the ‘edge’ of that EV, and instead becoming from the inside of that EV, now that would imply some sort of ‘two way communication’. But as long as it’s only a result created inside SpaceTime, no matter what you see as the ‘instigator’ (Black Hole:) then that Black Hole will be closed to me containing a ‘one way arrow’ only. SpaceTime thrives on interactions, defined as two way communications here. As soon as you find a ‘one way’ you will find some sort of ‘singularity’ waiting there. The way to ‘communicate’ with those will not go through applying and receiving ‘information’ as that only seems correct inside SpaceTime. You will have to look at the way they ‘builds/emerges’ instead and then read the information holistically as a pattern, not as ‘information’ having a interactivity with SpaceTime, and probably also keep it out from any known ‘cause and effect chain’ that we might relate them to? Also the ideas seem to relate to ‘magnitudes’ or ‘fractal behavior’ to me. Einstein described SpaceTime, Newton described Earth and the solar-system, doing so both went out from what they knew and made huge ‘imaginative jumps’ that they then backed up with experiments and mathematics. So when it comes to SpaceTime and its ‘elasticity’ time-wise I think Einstein is correct, and the’ absolute time underlying the space-time continuum’ that Newton trusted to I believe to be wrong. But when it comes to the way he saw everything ‘communicating’ inside SpaceTime I believe that to be true, with those exceptions defined as ‘singularities’ that just as the photon is a integrated part of SpaceTime but still seems to be ‘outside’ of it . And if we want to talk about really ‘far action’ behavior I believe we see it clearest at a Quantum mechanical level where we notice such phenomena as ‘black body radiation’ with its unexplainable ‘jumps’ creating the need for particle like ‘photons’ to explain it, as well as the ‘infinities of information’ needed for describing QM correctly and tunneling, entanglement, etc.

As for using Entanglement to send and receive information inside SpaceTime? I don’t think so, I’ve seen really weird statements from IBM amongst others suggesting that you might use entanglements to ‘teleport’ information, or other things.


In brief, they found a way to scan out part of the information from an object A, which one wishes to teleport, while causing the remaining, unscanned, part of the information to pass, via the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen effect, into another object C which has never been in contact with A. Later, by applying to C a treatment depending on the scanned-out information, it is possible to maneuver C into exactly the same state as A was in before it was scanned. A itself is no longer in that state, having been thoroughly disrupted by the scanning, so what has been achieved is teleportation, not replication.

---end of quote-------

I ‘know’ we entangle light. You know that ethereal thing without mass, size or ‘localization’ except when ‘impacting’. That we do through its polarization as mentioned above. But be awake when reading this please “  Photons too have quantum spin (they are spin-1 particles), but since photons travel at the speed c, the "spin axis" of a photon is always parallel to its direction of motion, pointing either forward or backward. These two states correspond to left-handed and right-handed photons. .  Each photon "in transit" may be considered to possess, in addition to its phase, a certain propensity to exhibit each of the two possible states of spin when it interacts with an object, and a beam of light can be characterized by the spin propensities (polarization) and phase relations of its constituent photons.” But when it comes to particles of ‘restmass’ we only talk about its ‘spin’ as I understands it.. Spin is a intrinsic property of a particle “described using a family of objects known as spinors. There are subtle differences between the behavior of spinors and vectors under coordinate rotations. Rotating a spin-1/2 particle by 360 degrees does not bring it back to the same quantum state, but to the state with the opposite quantum phase; this is detectable, in principle, with interference experiments. To return the particle to its exact original state, one needs a 720 degree rotation”. Why is that? Why do you need a double rotation to bring it back to its ‘original state’?  there must be something defining it even at that level for us to be able to draw that conclusion. But the ‘geometry’ seems not as ours. And if you have a different geometry, and if that geometry is defined by the way your ‘arrow(s:) of time’ defines you, would you then say that we have more or less ‘distances’ being involved in it? Remember that ‘space ball’ I played with who had its axis of ‘distances’ going out everywhere infinitely? Would that be enough to explain this? Does it ‘translate’ up into more ‘dimensions’ than my ‘space ball’ or can you translate it ‘down’ to fewer ‘dimensions’ or ‘distances’ and get this result? Like if I keep ‘width’ and ‘length’ and look at what that would do with a ball, but then again is that a correct description? When we speak of dimensions we deem SpaceTime spatially as being of three ‘dimensions’, right? From that I can imagine/create this ‘space ball ‘which have an infinite amount of different axis’s to it creating ‘distances’, if I now take away one of them ‘dimensions’ what happens to my ‘space ball’? I’m left with a two-dimensional figure with a suddenly extremely limited amount of ‘distances’ to it, even if possible to define as ‘limitless’ too they still would belong to a ‘smaller infinity’, wouldn’t you agree?

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #47 on: 25/09/2009 18:26:53 »
But what more am I doing when I do like this? That’s right, I’m acting as if the ‘arrow of time’ still is there, same as in our three-dimensional SpaceTime and with the same ‘rules’ defining it. If I had a two-dimensional circle/space ball but no ‘arrow of time’ would that change its properties? Sure would, without the arrow you can’t expect any ‘distance’ to exist. And if the arrow instead would point ‘both ways’ as it seems to do in QM? Would you then have a object that is there but not there at the same ‘time’ fluctuating sort of? And furthermore, if I would treat the idea of ‘time’ as I do distances and say that it also in itself have an infinite amount of axis’s time-wise ‘originally’, then limited by it’s possible ‘emergence(s)’  why wouldn’t that ‘time’ if ‘down sized’ then act differently as we change the ‘dimensions’, or as I like to see it, ‘distances’. The difference between what I call ‘distances’ and ‘dimensions seems to me to be that our three ‘distances’ is the smallest ‘dimensionality’ I need to create a infinite amount of axis’s from every point of ‘origin’ in SpaceTime, creating that ‘space/distances’ within our arrow of time. So if you now lay one more ‘distance’  to those ‘three’ you trust in? If you laid it into my ‘space ball’ I wouldn’t expect it to be noticed at all, the various ‘distances’ going out from that ‘point’ are already limitless. But If you treat it as solely ‘dimensions’ instead, defined as three (+ time)? Well, then I guess you will need to step out of SpaceTime spatially? And there I feel stymied, I have great trouble imagining that universe. And also it seems to imply that if I was correct in my thought experiment about ‘space balls’ you can’t have what you call a ‘two-dimensionality’ in SpaceTime, as that then would invalidate it. But a universe of ‘ space balls’ :) combined with ‘time balls’ I would expect to be able to produce almost any combination of effects that we observe, yep, as a guess of course, nothing more.  And of course, you can call me a ‘odd ball’ if you like :)

Anyway, let’s go back to IBM and their ‘teleportation’ scheme above. Let us say I create two ‘particles’ from one through a beamsplitter. Now I want you tell which one is the ‘original’ object? Can you? The spin of those two will fall out to the opposite of each other as soon as I observe one of them, but I can’t tell you which ‘spin’ it will have before observing it. To teleport something I assume that you mean that it will be an exact replica, and that a entanglement is not. A entanglement is a mirrored representation of something you only will have the knowledge of as you observe it. Assuming that they are ‘identical’ even if mirrored you still haven’t transferred any known information. The statement above is very doubtful to me, that you can ‘scan out part of the information from an object A’. What exactly do they mean by that? Does it mean that you would be able to know the spin of any particle sent through that beamsplitter, just by observing the ‘original’ before sending it? And if that were true you would also have some way to know which one was the original ‘particle’  as that will be the one with the ‘known’ spin. Clearly strange? And what are the information ‘scanned out’ from the original? Its ‘spin’ perhaps? and that you then apply to C, now defining C to be as A was before? Well, maybe I could call that a ‘exact replica’ but I can’t break ‘the speed of information’ inside SpaceTime with it, as I will need to apply that ‘information’ on C manually. So it’s not a teleportation, to me it seems a manipulation inside ‘the speed of light in a vacuum’ a.k.a. inside our SpaceTime creating two ‘identical’ particles from one through an inter mediator. Entanglements are to me ‘one-way’ communications, therefore similar to singularities and not able to ‘interact’ inside SpaceTime, that means sharing a two-way communication inside it.  ‘Teleportations’ obeying ‘c’ is what you have when you send your text to several locations ‘simultaneously’ if so, as long as you then destroy your 'original' in the process? They will be the exact same, containing the same ‘information’ to you no matter where you read them, but to me teleportation should be ‘instantly’ just like that entanglement seems to be. But the real problem is to define what ‘information’ is here. As we saw ‘entanglements’ does not contain any applicable information for you when just watching one end of it, as you can’t know the spin before observing it. That you know that the opposite spin falls out for the mirrored twin as soon as you observed it does not tell you what spin your particle will have before? If you could find a way to know that first spin without observing it, then you would have a way to send superluminal information, with the addendum that you still would need a way to inform your counterpart on Sirius what ‘spin’ you defined as being ‘informative’, but that you could decide together as before he left Earth. The point being here that as far as I understand you’ll never know a spin or polarization without observing it first. If you would be able to do so then you also would be able to instantly ‘know it all’ as neither time nor distance would be a hindrance for ‘information’ inside SpaceTime any longer. Can you see what I mean?

If we go back to the idea of  what renormalization is. When you look at those ‘infinities’ describing our electron another way to see it might be to say that you have a infinite amount of statements defining the same thing, all true but never ending. To me it implies that what we have done as a first step, using renormalizability, limiting the outcomes, is not wrong, just as neither Newton or Einstein is wrong. But to me it’s still a ‘limiting case’ wherein we try to circle in ‘reality’ from a quantum mechanical point of view, just as Newton did from a more macroscopic point of view, and then Einstein. The real question to me will be if we can use mathematics to describe what I believe to be that ‘distance-less point of origin’ unfolding into us. I hope we can but I’m not sure. Is there a possibility of defining something without times arrow(s) constantly mirroring/expressing QM and SpaceTime. How do you explain times arrow ‘emerging’? That it is a ‘flow’ for us may be explainable as it come from something without ‘distances’, and you can’t divide null, can you? On the other hand it might be a slightly flawed null, if we look to CP-violations? The question then might become if you can have something without size but unsymmetrical? Or maybe something that won’t be able to find a equilibrium without our SpaceTime? The time and space like direction(s) it expresses through its ‘emergence(s)’ may be more complicated to define, even though we can see its relation to invariant mass/space inside our macroscopic universe.

And if ‘energy’ as I suspect is a ‘local SpaceTime definition’ expressing itself through time as disturbances of equilibrium’s then that too may be what I call ‘time without arrows’ emerging due to symmetry breakings. And that seems to imply that ‘time’ and ‘clocks’ is not the same. SpacetTime is to me like that fountain coming from a single size-less ‘spot’ unfolding itself into clocks and mass, space and distances. So, what do you think? Do you remember that I was asking about what inertia was? Well I said that I believed it to be bound to invariant mass, didn’t I and momentum to be something not bound to anything at all, well sort of. Could momentum be seen as an expression of the geometry of SpaceTime in a Einstenian universe? Like the heights and troughs of space with momentum becoming in our straining of the same by acceleration, although in the fact of a later ‘uniform motion’ it will be integrated in SpaceTime as it no longer ‘strains’? And the consequences of that only will be seen as it once more apply a strain by for example by colliding with ‘something’ or otherwise disturb SpaceTime ‘equilibrium’. But inertia then?


It can be generalised as a force which counteracts any acceleration of an object with respect to the frame that Mach described, in which the bodies of the distant universe are observed to be at rest. This instantaneous force appears to be related to the mass of the object and its acceleration with respect to the Machian frame. An interaction between an observed object on earth and one in the distant universe must be a non-local interaction. The stars in our galaxy are far enough away from us that however fast they are moving, they form a virtually fixed background upon which we measure the motion of our much closer planetary companions. In the same way the relative motion between the galaxies other than our own also can be considered a fixed background relative to which we can measure acceleration. Further, since the laws of
inertia appear to be the same for all directions of motion, then we can assume that the parts of the universe that significantly contribute to the inertia force are distributed uniformly in all directions. This is called an isotropic distribution.

The most familiar manifestation of the force of inertia is the linear resistance to acceleration. This is the force that appears whenever an object is subjected to an applied force either by contact or by gravity, electrostatics or electromagnetism. The inertia force precisely opposes the applied force in such a manner as to allow a finite and predictable acceleration. It is the reason that all objects fall toward the earth with the same acceleration regardless of their mass. If this force did not exist, then any applied force would produce an infinite acceleration and the universe would have collapsed long ago due to the force of gravity. If however, a force is applied to an object which is already moving perpendicular to the direction of the applied force, then the inertial opposition becomes known as a centrifugal force. This is the force that stretches and sometimes breaks a string used to swing a weight around our head. It is also the force that pushes a race car off a high speed corner and most importantly prevents the earth from falling into the sun. Possibly due to the fact that the inertia forces are so uniform and also that a search for their source implies the currently unfashionable non-local interaction principle, they have been treated differently from the other forces in modern physics textbooks and are often only described as “pseudo-forces”.. .

If indeed, objects are directly pushed and pulled by all of the bodies in the universe, then a perfect demonstration of these forces is the space compass, better known as a gyroscope. Once the axis of a flywheel is aligned to point from one fixed galaxy to another and is held in gimballed bearings which are secured to a space capsule, it will point in this direction forever, whatever maneuvers the space ship will perform, so long as the gyroscope is kept rotating and no electric, magnetic, or contact forces can apply a torque to the axis of rotation. The atoms simply feel where the fixed stars are and are pushed and pulled by them. It is not the inertial or gravitational interaction with the nearby stars that stabilizes the gyroscope alignment. It has to be other isotropically distributed matter arranged in an unchanging way with
respect to our galaxy. Every time we become aware that we are accelerating, it is because the distant universe noticed it and has pushed us.

-------End of quote---------

Newton describes inertia in Newton's First Law of Motion as: "An object that is not subject to any outside forces moves at a constant velocity, covering equal distances in equal times along a straight-line path." Or ‘stays’ if not ‘moving’. Inertia is ‘disguised’ by friction on Earth, which is why Aristotle believed that objects moved only as long a force was being applied to them. So is ‘Inertia’ ‘instantaneous’ or is it the result of a gravitational ‘field’ interacting with invariant mass? A.k.a. ‘far action’ as it will react at every point in SpaceTime, making me look at it as ‘space’ observing ‘space’. Do you remember that I spoke about ‘tunneling’ before as one of those ‘possibly instantaneous thingies’.


 Chiao's group at Berkeley, Dr. Aephraim M. Steinberg at the University of Toronto and others are investigating the strange properties of tunneling, which was one of the subjects explored last month by scientists attending the Nobel Symposium on quantum physics in Sweden.

"We find," Chiao said, "that a barrier placed in the path of a tunneling particle does not slow it down. In fact, we detect particles on the other side of the barrier that have made the trip in less time than it would take the particle to traverse an equal distance without a barrier -- in other words, the tunneling speed apparently greatly exceeds the speed of light. Moreover, if you increase the thickness of the barrier the tunneling speed increases, as high as you please.

"This is another great mystery of quantum mechanics."

---End of quote---

Well, doesn’t that point to ‘instantaneous displacement’?
As we see it ‘go up in ‘speed’’ with thickness?
Or/and non-locality?

Never mind no matter :) if what I read above is correct then Inertia seems much as I thought, something specifically bound to invariant mass, versus that ‘momentum’ that then have no such demands ‘resting’ on it. The Newtonian universe makes sense to me, as well as the Einsteinian, although Einstein’s SpaceTime is the one I trust to describe it best macroscopically. The problem with our understanding seems our need to relate what we know to how we observe our SpaceTime working with our ‘forces’ acting. Which I presume to make our observations slightly flawed as they rest on what I expect to be ‘partial truths’. That won’t hinder that there may be one ‘truth’ existing outside our ‘arrow of time’ containing all the ‘truths’ we observe inside it, but to manipulate that ‘truth’ as we do with our ‘forces’, well, I doubt it as that ‘reality’ will not be ours. And just as it is with ‘flows’ and ‘events’ both can be seen as ‘truths’ from an observers perspective, depending on his choice of observation, although in the case f flow versus events I still lean to a ‘flow’ myself being what ‘time’ really is. Not that I expect it to ‘flow’ behind that veil. To me ‘time’ is more like that ‘monolith’ we all are immersed in, and from where SpaceTime becomes as a ‘partial truth’, even though being the only one directly observable for us. So if you think as me it may be time for us to stop looking at SpaceTime as a solely ‘mechanical’ being working by/on the ‘forces’ we deem to exist. So why not start to look on how objects ‘emerge’ and what ‘laws’ we might deduct from that. Well, that’s my view, as crazy as it might be. And I prefer it as it allows for both ‘theories’, with a few exceptions, as Newton’s ‘inelastic’ time won’t ‘do’ inside SpaceTime. As well as it, to me that is, makes sense of us emerging as ‘intelligent beings’, creating ideas and concepts as ‘Ethics’ and ‘morals, right and wrongs’, as that then could be seen as the next step in a unfolding ‘information space’ where we at the end might find ‘problems’ with defining what’s ‘really real’, and which is where we rightly belong as conceptual tinkers. Us and our ‘forces’ will then be something relating to, and inside, SpaceTime, but for what will be waiting ‘behind/outside it’? That should be really interesting to see. Hope I haven’t made to big an ass out of myself here, as I said it’s thoughts, and possibly hypothesizes, created from my needs to get a slightly less headache, not any holy grail. Anyhow, I hope I made my views clear enough to get a grip? As for finding a ‘nexus’ to waves in this case? I don’t know, I don’t think so though, not if we look at those properties of light as ‘emerging’. On the other tentacle, it do makes ‘photons’ seem questionable too :)

Another thing that’s interesting to me is the question when ‘time’ might get this arrow. As I said before I expect it to involve what we call Planck-distances.
« Last Edit: 25/09/2009 20:27:35 by yor_on »

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #48 on: 25/09/2009 18:27:43 »

On the scale of the Planck length, it's possible that the structure of spacetime becomes quite different from the four-dimensional manifold we know and love. Spacetime itself becomes a foam (according to Wheeler) or a bucket of dust (according to Wheeler) or a bubbling sea of virtual black holes (according to Hawking) or a weave of knots or tangles (according to Ashtekar, Rovelli, and Smolin). In short, it's weird, but beyond that nobody really knows. To be more precise, the Planck length is the length scale at which quantum mechanics, gravity and relativity all interact very strongly. Thus it depends on hbar, c, and Newton's gravitational constant G. …

----End of quote--

So you might loosely say that is a definition of where our SpaceTime ends :)
But there are other ways to search for times shortest ‘arrow’ too.


“The only fundamental theory that picks out a preferred direction of time is the second law of thermodynamics, which asserts that the entropy of the Universe increases as time flows toward the future. This provides an orientation, or arrow of time, and it is generally believed that all other time symmetries, such as our sense that future and past are different, are a direct consequence of this thermodynamic arrow.”

In their study, Feng and Crooks have developed a method to accurately measure “time asymmetry” (which refers to our intuitive concept of time, that the past differs from the future, in contrast with time symmetry, where there is no distinction between past and future). They began by investigating the increase in energy dissipation, or entropy, in various arrangements. Feng and Crooks wanted their new measurement method to explain how time can move forward even at points when entropy is decreasing. To do this, they analyzed the folding and unfolding of a single RNA molecule attached to two tiny beads. By controlling the distance between one bead and an adjacent optical laser trap, the scientists could stretch and compress the RNA molecule. Initially, the RNA starts in thermal equilibrium, but, as it’s alternately stretched and compressed, the total entropy of the RNA and the surrounding bath increases on average. “We use an ensemble, or large number, of RNA trajectories to measure the time asymmetry,” Feng explained to “Using work measurements for both forward and reverse experiments, we simply plug these measurements into an expression for A, or time asymmetry, in the paper. Assuming we know the free energy change, this gives the square of the length of time's arrow.”

--End of quote---

What I think they are doing is treating entropy as a measure of when times arrow becomes fuzzy, like we see in QM.


“We use an ensemble, or large number, of RNA trajectories to measure the time asymmetry,” Feng explained to “Using work measurements for both forward and reverse experiments, we simply plug these measurements into an expression for A, or time asymmetry, in the paper. Assuming we know the free energy change, this gives the square of the length of time's arrow.” To measure time asymmetry in this arrangement, an observer watching the RNA’s trajectory of unfolding and folding should be able to tell if the trajectory was generated by stretching or compressing. The scientists quantify this observation in terms of the “Jensen-Shannon divergence,” a probability which gives a “0” if stretching and compressing are identical, a “1” if they are distinguishable at every moment, and some fraction of one if they overlap occasionally. This probability, Feng and Crooks explain, can more accurately describe time asymmetry than a simple measurement of average entropy, since the average entropy is sensitive to unusual events. For example, if the RNA becomes tangled, it resists being unfolded when the beads expand. Because the tangled RNA is pulled apart very slowly, the process is essentially time-symmetric. The scientists show that a model of this process has large average dissipation, or entropy increase, but small time asymmetry, as one intuitively expects due to the slow pulling.

-------End of quote---Feng, Edward H. and Crooks, Gavin E. “Length of Time’s Arrow.” Physical Review
Letters 101, 090602 (2008).

It’s strangely interesting to me. It hasn’t anything to do with whether time is a flow or events though. To me it seems as a statistical approach to measuring when we first can see a ‘distinctive’ arrow emerge from ‘nothing’. Also they wanted to see how time can move ‘forward’ when you see entropy decrease, as it seem to be able to do in very small systems momentarily. Macroscopically though, entropy constantly is seen to increase as ‘times arrow’ moves SpaceTime into the ‘future’. So to see it as a smallest ‘times arrow’ might be true, as defined inside SpaceTime. But it won’t be a ‘shortest time segment’ we will see, only its arrow taking shape.

As a environmental sidekick :)

Here’s how I understand how Earth’s ‘radiation’ works discussing H2O and CO2. (And I’m not discussing ‘convection cycles’ now.)

Think of Earth as a ‘black body’, I absolutely refuse to go into the mathematics of it :) but just as that black body Earth radiates. The heat Earth frees from the sun’s warming and its own inherent heat goes up in the atmosphere as infrared radiation, to eventually disappear in space.  That infrared radiation will be taken up by all molecules (air) between space and Earth, with them radiating it back again in all directions, down as well as up and sideways. The higher in the atmosphere you come the less density there will be, that means fewer molecules to take up that radiation. So what happens when we add ‘man made’ CO2 (carbon dioxide)? Well the concentration/addition of molecules will get our atmosphere to become denser or thicker if you like, that in its turn will push that releasing ‘edge/surface’ where that heat finally leave our atmosphere upwards to even colder layers, higher up. As those is colder they do not radiate heat as well as those layers that already is becoming ‘satiated’ by heat. And the whole time we have a constant creation of more manmade CO2 joining the atmosphere that we are ‘creating / transforming’ into CO2 from the Earth’s hidden/buried ‘sinks’ in form of coal and oil and natural gas (methane) . You’re with me so far?  Each ‘layer’ of air in our atmosphere will reach ever new equilibrium’s of warmth as the heat and molecules radiates / get freed from Earth, that as molecules in each layer also warm each other as they radiate.

As this is happening Earth will slowly become a place where the radiation from those molecules, reflected in all directions, will cause the Earth to start conserving this energy by building up ‘heat’ in the air layers as the heat gets more and more ‘trapped’ by our new molecules. - And - - This ‘imbalance’ creating evermore warmer layers will keep on, until the highest level of our atmosphere is so ‘warmed up’ that it reflects as much heat in space as the planet is receiving from the sun and ..Us. - That as it is only in that highest layer Earth can regulate its temperature through radiating out in space -. Did you know that before we started our industrial era we were actually in a slowly cooling period on Earth? As for water-vapor it is well known that the higher up you come the ‘dryer’ the air will be, that means that most of the water-vapor falls out as rain further down. As the Co2 and H2O molecules drifts upward their mode of absorption changes. At a sea level the absorption is concentrated into discrete spikes with narrow gaps between the spikes and ‘shallow’ valleys. The ‘spikes’ we’re talking about is light (heat) absorbed in very specific wavelengths shown as dark lines in a spectrum. When the molecules are at the higher layers this absorption will change as the air-pressure goes down. Then their ‘spikes’ becomes much more defined and closer together (more heat absorbed per molecule) And CO2 won’t fall out as water vapor does (H2O-humidity-rain) at those lower altitudes, instead it will stay mixed no matter the height even though it will ‘thin out’ the higher we come just as our atmosphere. That’s why climate scientists talk about amount of heat conserved in different molecules and of global warming potential (GWP).

“Methane is a greenhouse gas that is 60-70 times more potent than carbon dioxide (CO2) over a twenty-year period (or 25 times over a hundred-year period). “ And that’s why methane is a ‘killer of life’ even in small quantities. Also you should know that CO2 when taken up by the oceans create acidity in them, creating a marine environment where our fishes, reefs, etc starts to die. And as I wrote earlier, they are already becoming saturated. "A study published in the journal Science revealed that since 1981, the Southern Ocean has been taking up less carbon dioxide - five to 30 per cent less per decade - than researchers had predicted previously. At the same time carbon dioxide emissions rose by 40 per cent, the study found. The reason for the slowdown is more winds over the Southern Ocean since 1958, caused by human-produced greenhouse gases and ozone depletion. "

“Observations since 1961 show that the average temperature of the global ocean has increased to depths of at least 3000 m and that the ocean has been absorbing more than 80% of the heat added to the climate system. Such warming causes seawater to expand, contributing to sea level rise. . Changes in precipitation and evaporation over the oceans are suggested by freshening of mid and high latitude waters together with increased salinity in low latitude waters. Mid-latitude westerly winds have strengthened in both hemispheres since the 1960s. More intense and longer droughts have been observed over wider areas since the 1970s, particularly in the tropics and subtropics. Increased drying linked with higher temperatures and decreased precipitation have contributed to changes in drought. Changes in sea surface temperatures (SST), wind patterns, and decreased snowpack and snow cover have also been linked to droughts. "

And now I will quote myself from 2007 in ‘global health’  “Now I'll make a wild guess ::)) In five to ten years we will start to see a accelerating release of Methane into the Atmosphere, and the linear thinking of how the climate works will break down (again :) Earth ain't linear. Earth is a dynamic nonlinear system, and even if mostly stable , we are throwing a big monkey wrench into its cyclic gears. When a nonlinear system change 'state' it can do so very quickly.”


Ice cores provide evidence for variation in greenhouse gas concentrations over the past 800,000 years. Both CO2 and CH4 vary between glacial and interglacial phases, and concentrations of these gases correlate strongly with temperature. Before the ice core record, direct measurements do not exist. .

Measurements from Antarctic ice cores show that just before industrial emissions started, atmospheric CO2 levels were about 280 parts per million by volume. From the same ice cores it appears that CO2 concentrations stayed between 260 and 280 ppm (Parts per million) during the preceding 10,000 years. However, because of the way air is trapped in ice and the time period represented in each ice sample analyzed, these figures are long term averages not annual levels. . .

Since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, the concentrations of many of the greenhouse gases have increased. The concentration of CO2 has increased by about 100 ppm (i.e., from 280 ppm to 380 ppm).

The first 50 ppm increase took place in about 200 years, from the start of the Industrial Revolution to around 1973.

The next 50 ppm increase took place in about 33 years, from 1973 to 2006.

--End of quote--

If I look at the worlds coal consumption 2008 of 3 300 million ton, then 2 000 million ton was consumed by Asia. And you know what, we are coming out from our recession now says our ‘economists’. So now we can start all over again. The steel production is up as from August 2009 to 106.5 millions ton according to ‘World Steel’. And China have in ten years gone from 124 millions tons, to now over 500 millions ton steel yearly. And its coal consumption have raised from 1998, 652 million tons to over 1400 millions tons last year according to the oil company BP energy-statistics. And sixty eight  percent of the worlds electric power is generated by fossil fuels today, mostly coal and ‘natural gas’ (methane).

Now? - Anybody want to guess how long it will take for the next 50 Parts Per Million (PPM)?

---Quote—Lisa Moore, Ph.D., scientist in the Climate and Air program at Environmental Defense.--

Here's a table showing a selection of greenhouse gases, their global warming potential (GWP), and their lifetimes:

Greenhouse Gas . . . . . . . .  .Lifetime years . . (100-Year GWP)
Carbon Dioxide (CO2) . . …. . . . hundreds .. .. . .1
Methane (CH4) . . . . . . …. . . .. . . 1 . . .  . . . .25
Nitrous Oxide (N2O) . . . . . . . . . .114 . . . . . . .298
Hydrofluorocarbon-23 (CHF3) . . . .264 . . . .. . .14,800
Sulphur hexafluoride (SF6) . . . . ..3,200.  . . . .22,800
PFC-14 (CF4) . . . . . . . .. . . . . .50,000 . . . . .7,390

Notice that the carbon dioxide lifetime is "hundreds of years", rather than a specific number. The IPCC ‘Third Assessment Report’ defines a gas's lifetime as the amount of the gas in the atmosphere divided by the rate at which it is removed from the atmosphere. That sounds simple enough, except that not all gases are removed by just one (or mainly one) process. Ironically, the gas that accounts for the greatest proportion of global warming, carbon dioxide (CO2), is the hardest to pin down. When CO2 is released into the atmosphere, about three-quarters of it dissolves into the ocean over a few decades (- Acidity -). The rest is neutralized by a variety of longer-term geological processes, which can take thousands of years.

From IPCC Fourth Assessment Report:  About 50% of a CO2 increase will be removed from the atmosphere within 30 years, and a further 30% will be removed within a few centuries. The remaining 20% may stay in the atmosphere for many thousands of years.

From U.S Greenhouse Gas Inventory Reports: (CO2) Atmospheric lifetime: 50-200 years. No single lifetime can be defined for CO2 because of the different rates of uptake by different removal processes.

From RealClimate: “My model indicates that about 7% of carbon released today will still be in the atmosphere in 100,000 years. I calculate a mean lifetime, from the sum of all the processes, of about 30,000 years. That's a deceptive number, because it is so strongly influenced by the immense longevity of that long tail. If one is forced to simplify reality into a single number for popular discussion, several hundred years is a sensible number to choose, because it tells three-quarters of the story, and the part of the story which applies to our own lifetimes.” ("How long will global warming last?")

For other gases, a meaningful lifetime is easier to calculate because one process dominates their removal from the atmosphere:

    * Methane is mostly scrubbed from the atmosphere by hydroxyl radicals (a chemical reaction).
    * Nitrous oxide is destroyed by photolytic reactions (chemical reactions involving photons or light) in the stratosphere.

As you can see from the chart, some gases have extraordinarily long lifetimes. Because emission rates are vastly higher than removal rates, greenhouse gases are accumulating in the atmosphere and will affect climate for generations to come.

----End of Quote----

So yeah,
high time we create something better than this.
« Last Edit: 25/09/2009 19:32:49 by yor_on »

Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #49 on: 28/09/2009 18:45:31 »
As a thought experiment in ‘teleportation’ . Assume that you will be ‘teleported’ somewhere as an exact ‘copy’ of your ‘original’. To me it doesn’t really have an importance if there will be two of you inside SpaceTime, not in this experiment. Will the new you and your original have the same thoughts? No way, you will have two different ‘realties’ surrounding you and so your experiences/thoughts will differ. So? Can there be a ‘exact copy’? Of dead matter, yes. But of living? But if you then become ‘entangled’ in the process? How will that show itself? opposite spins? How about thoughts?

Let us discuss the idea of virtual particles and our idea of restmass some more. Let us first look at those ‘virtual ones’. In a way they do not exist, they are a metaphorical ambiguous descriptions of something that somehow ‘craves to exist’, as we see results inside SpaceTime that have no other known explanations, as far as I understand. One interesting example of virtual particles and energy is the how the presence of Casimir plates can affect the fluctuations, so that the ‘negative energy’ density between extremely close plates when compared to the ‘positive energy’ outside the plates leads to a measurable effect. We have a definition of energy as coming from ‘zero’ energy and rising inside spaceTime, but this ‘negative energy’ mentioned, what is that? “To understand how energy can be negative, set aside the classical interpretation of empty space, which is a vacuum with zero energy density. Instead, think of the vacuum as having only an average energy density of zero, in deference to the statistical fluctuations quantum mechanics says underlie fields. Given those vacuum fluctuations, zero energy is no longer the lowest energy state possible. Why? Because in order to average out to nothing, sometimes the vacuum must have tiny amounts of positive, and other times tiny amounts of  negative, energy. “

And “ the Casimir effect has been posited as a force produced solely by activity in the vacuum. The Casimir force is also very powerful at small distances. Besides being independent of temperature, it is inversely proportional to the fourth power of the distance between the plates! Therefore, as the plates are brought closer, the virtual particles outside the plates increasingly overpower the decreasing quantity of virtual particles appearing between the plates with an exponentially increasing force.”  This leads to some speculation about the possibility of get ‘free energy’ through it.  “ Physicist Robert Forward, working at the Hughes Research Laboratory at the time, published a paper in 1984 with a clever thought experiment that demonstrated the conceptual possibility of extracting such vacuum energy from the zero-point field using the Casimir Force but with a slight twist: using electrically charged plates. Charging the plates will not affect the Casimir force, but doing that will provide a way to derive energy from the force which is pushing the plates together. If the two plates are given the same polarity charge, they will electrostatically repel each other. Adjust the charge so that the electrostatic repulsion and the Casimir attraction almost precisely balance, but always let the former be slightly smaller than the latter. In this way the Casimir force will slowly push the plates together, thus doing work against the electrostatic force and thereby adding energy to the electric field between the plates. This build-up of energy is at the expense of the zero-point field. Since the zero-point field is enormous, this energy is never missed. It just flows back almost instantaneously. It is like taking a bucket of water from the ocean. Forward’s "vacuum fluctuations battery" will not provide useful energy because to make the energy extraction happen a second time, you have to pull the plates apart, and that takes at least as much energy (because of frictional losses, actually slightly more) as the original gain. So as conceived, the experiment has no practical use. But its conceptual importance is clear. It demonstrates that in principle there are ways of extracting energy from the vacuum. What is missing is the engineering to do so. “

So that is a very optimistic statement. Then again, as I see it as another ‘reality’ outside our arrow of time I personally don’t believe it, as it then would violate ‘emergence’ and allow ‘a two way information’ to flow between something outside our ‘arrow of time’ and SpaceTime. There is support for my view in the experiments done by Noah Graham and Ken Olum ‘trying to optimize the possibility of ‘negative energy’’. Apparently there seems to be a ‘hidden principle’ now named as  AENC  (Averaged Null Energy Condition)  hindering this. And that is as it should be in ‘my universe’ :)

---Quote----from “Charting the river of time” by Ken Olum ---

The ANEC (Averaged Null Energy Condition)  essentially says that, though you can borrow a little negative energy on your route through space-time, you wind up paying it back with the positive type. Exotic phenomena are unlikely because they require some form of energy with a density that violates the ANEC “they require that the total energy density be negative when we add up all the contributions over the complete path of the light ray,” as Olum describes it. Which is to say, a little trading in the energy margins is fine, but the end result will still be positive—or at least not negative enough, for long enough, over a large enough region to make any difference.. ..

Along with Noah Graham, a Junior Faculty Fellow at Middlebury College, Olum has already shown that the ANEC still obtains between Casimir plates, even if you put holes in the plates so a photon can pass through in the most negative energy-friendly direction. “What we found was the striking result that the region near the hole always contributed enough positive energy to overwhelm the ANEC violation,” said Graham. “This result could be a coincidence of this particular system, but it certainly suggests there is a deeper principle
at work.” With Fewster and Pfenning, Olum showed that there is such a principle at work in flat space, a finding confirmed by his work with Graham. If it applies to more complex systems as well, that principle
may be the barrier to time travel. “No collection of Casimir-type systems in flat space can violate the ANEC,” Olum said. “This we succeeded in showing. So the next thing to do is to try this for interacting fields, and curved space.” Olum is skeptical of any exotic outcomes, however. There is no free negative energy lunch in the special case and, he suspects, there isn’t going to be one in the general case. “I have tried to construct these exotic things before, using what seemed to be promising ideas, and I have not been able to construct them. So I think that it’s impossible. And I have good reasons to think that it’s impossible,” he said. “Without constructing the proof, though,” he added, “one can’t be certain.”

----End of quote--------------

Restmass then? Well let’s consider that Electron once more. “ For example, all electrons are identical, a situation for which there is no macroscopic parallel. To say that two electrons are present at a given moment may therefore be indistinguishable from saying that the same electron is present in two locations. Further, an electron moving backward in time would from one perspective be equivalent to a positron moving forward (Feynman diagrams). Indeed, decades ago, such considerations motivated the theoretical physicist John Archibald Wheeler to wonder whether all electrons may in fact be the same particle, hopping endlessly about in space and time. Resolving temporal paradoxes at the quantum level may thus turn out only to be a matter of choosing a suitable frame of reference.”

So what is not possible macroscopically becomes possible at a quantum mechanic scale? But can we ‘transfer it’ to the macroscopic scale? In ‘my universe’ I expect that to be impossible. Why? Well, if it was possible we should already have ‘time-travel’, also it would violate my idea of ‘one-way’ and ‘two-way’ communication as I see ‘virtual particles’ as being as much a ‘singularity’ as our ‘Black Holes’, the difference here being that ‘virtual particles’ arrow is directed towards SpaceTime versus a Black Holes arrow being directed from SpaceTime, towards its own ‘singularity’. There are more things to say about this but let us jump to my next question first. What would you call the ‘origin’ of mass? Let’s start with how we once thought of it

---Quote—Frank Wilczek- -The origin of mass--

The concept of mass is one of the first things we discuss in my freshman mechanics class. Classical mechanics is, literally, unthinkable without it. Newton’s second law of motion says that the acceleration of a body is given by dividing the force acting upon it by its mass. So a body without mass wouldn’t know how to move, because you’d be dividing by zero. Also, in Newton’s law of gravity, the mass of an object governs the strength of the force it exerts. One cannot build up an object that gravitates, out of material that does not, so you can’t get rid of mass without getting rid of gravity. Finally, the most basic feature of mass in classical mechanics is that it is conserved. For example, when you bring together two bodies, the total mass is just the sum of the individual masses. This assumption is so deeply ingrained that it was not even explicitly formulated as a law. (Though I teach it as Newton’s Zeroth Law.) Altogether, in the Newtonian framework it is difficult to imagine what would constitute an “origin of mass,’’ or even what this phrase could possibly mean. In that framework mass just is what it is a primary concept. Later developments in physics make the concept of mass seem less irreducible. Einstein’s famous equation of special relativity theory, written in that way, betrays the prejudice that we should express energy in terms of mass. But we can write the same equation in the alternative form . When expressed in this form, it suggests the possibility of explaining mass in terms of energy. Einstein was aware of this possibility from the beginning. Indeed, his original 1905 paper is entitled, “Does the Inertia of a Body Depend on Its Energy Content?”

---End of quote---

If I remember right I have already discussed the ideas describing Quantum Electrodynamics (QED) and its ‘offspring’ Quantum ChromoDynamics (QCD) somewhere on this site. --- ---.

--Diverse Quotes—

“The full description of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles was formulated by Sin-Itiro Tomonaga, Richard Feynman  and Julian Schwinger in independent works in the 1940's. They formulated Quantum ElectroDynamics (QED). This is a theory that takes full account of quantum physics and special relativity (which is the underlying symmetry of Maxwell's Equations). It is very elegantly formulated by so-called Feynman diagrams, where the elementary particles exchange photons as was described above and where each diagram constitutes a certain mathematical expression that can be obtained from some basic rules for the propagation of virtual particles and from the interaction vertices. The simplest diagram for the interaction between two electrons is electrons interaction. This diagram in fact leads to Coulomb's law.

Feynman now instructs us that we can combine any line for a propagating electron (or when it travels backwards, the positron) and any line for a propagating photon tied together with the vertex where an electron line emits a photon to make up new diagrams. Every other diagram differing from the one above constitutes quantum corrections to the basic force. It was through the work of the three scientists above that it was shown that every such diagram can be made to make sense to give finite answers. It is said that QED is renormalisable. The strength of the force as in Coulomb's law is governed by the magnitude of the vertex which is the electric charge e in QED and for the diagram above it is proportional to the square of e and is the Fine Structure Constant = 1/137. Since this is a small number it makes sense to write the amplitude in a series of terms with higher and higher powers of since that factor will be smaller and smaller for ever increasing complexity of the diagram. The higher order terms are higher quantum corrections and the perturbation expansion that we have defined will have smaller and smaller terms as we go to higher quantum corrections.”

“The strong Nuclear force is explained by Quantum ChromoDynamics, or the colour interaction. The colour interaction, QCD, is such that there are three colour charges, red, green, and blue, and a proper interaction only occurs between all three when they are together.(There are no actual inherent colours and in fact they are always changing, its just that the sum of three results in neutrality)

Even more interesting, however, is that the colour force gets stronger with distance. If one were to try and extend particles interacting through QCD, he or she would find that the force between said particles would increase to infinity. This poses a problem for those scientists who want to observe quarks, which interact through a colour charge. The quarks cannot actually be separated. The solution to this is to observe the quarks when they are very close together. Thus the force between them shall be weak. Using this principle, scientists were able to rattle protons and neutrons to observe their constituent quarks.”

“At this most primitive level QCD is a lot like QED, but bigger. The diagrams look similar, and the rules for evaluating them are similar, but there are more kinds of sticks and hubs. More precisely, while there is just one kind of charge in QED —namely, electric charge— QCD has three different kinds of charge. They are called colors, for no good reason. We could label them red, white, and blue; or alternatively, if we want to make drawing easier, and to avoid the colors of the French flag, we can use red, green, and blue. Every quark has one unit of one of the color charges. In addition, quarks come in different “flavors.” The only ones that play a role in ordinary matter are two flavors called u and d, for up and down.

(Of course, quark “flavors” have nothing to do with how anything tastes. And, these names for u and d don’t imply that there’s any real connection between flavors and directions. Don’t blame me; when I get the chance, I give particles dignified scientific-sounding names like axion and anyon.)

There are u quarks with a unit of red charge, d quarks with a unit of green charge, and so forth, for six different possibilities altogether. And instead of one photon that responds to electric charge, QCD has eight color gluons that can either respond to different color charges or change one into another. So there is quite a large variety of sticks, and there are also many different kinds of hubs that connect them. It seems like things could get terribly complicated and messy. And so they would, were it not for the overwhelming symmetry of the theory. If you interchange red with blue everywhere, for example, you must still get the same rules. The more complete symmetry allows you to mix the colors continuously, forming blends, and the rules must come out the same for blends as for pure colors. I won’t be able to do justice to the mathematics here, of  course. But the final result is noteworthy, and easy to convey: there is one and only one way to assign rules to all the possible hubs so that the theory comes out fully symmetric. Intricate it may be, but messy it is not!

-----End of quotes---

As for why their exact ‘colors’ was chosen? If I remember right it had to do with the way they ‘neutralized’ each other color-wise just as our color charts do?


These aren’t real colors visible to the eye, of course, but they do exhibit a similar bit of behavior—one blue, one green, and one red quark add up to be colorless, just as equal parts of blue, green, and red light add up to white light. All observable particles—your protons, neutrons, pions, kaons, and what have you—are color-neutral. And just as all particles, including quarks, have antiparticles, colors have anticolors: antiblue (yellow), antigreen (magenta), and antired (cyan). A bound pair of a color and its anticolor is also color-neutral. To make things really interesting, every gluon carries two units of color charge—a color and a (generally different) anticolor—and when quarks trade gluons, they usually change color as well. By analogy with quantum electrodynamics, which explains electromagnetism on a quantum level, Gell-Mann christened this Trading Spaces nightmare quantum chromodynamics, or QCD.

-------------------End of quote-----

So what does those theories say about mass? Do they explain the phenomena? They give us good and detailed theories for how the interactions seems to work, but, do they give me an understanding for what matter is? Nah, not really. So, what is matter? That invariant mass we see all around us, living and dead. I see it as an ‘emergence’ through distances, like disturbances in a field that due to ‘laws’ getting created by their emerging/appearance draws them together, ‘coagulates’ them inside SpaceTime. But here a really infuriating problem exists. If I have something without ‘distances’ creating this ‘disturbance’, well that’s one thing, but when we ‘move’? How the he* does that ‘work’? And to up that problem further, why not also add those of us with ‘a free will’ choosing our direction in SpaceTime ‘independently’? Could I look at it as a ‘law’ from the simple to the complex perhaps? Could I also look at is if what we see as ‘forces needed’ is only applicable in SpaceTime? I mean, it would simplify my headache enormously if I could assume that when certain preconditions is fulfilled outside what we know, then a so called ‘emergence’ take place, creating a ‘SpaceTime’ with its own rules. Then SpaceTime even if directly connected to this ‘distance-less’ reality will have a life of it’s own, not needed to coordinate what we see as ‘motion’ to its ‘parent reality’. Can you see how I think here? Like if what we see if seen from that original point of view only is an ‘illusion’.  Inside SpaceTime it’s not, naturally, just as the ‘distances’ created by a Black Hole will be all to real if you were there. But it would simplify life for me, as I otherwise would have to expect that, if I’m right, all motion inside SpaceTime will be directly ‘interacting’ and coordinated with/to a ‘dimension less point’. And that, that would really make my headache jump up and down in excitement and destroy all ‘one and two way-communication’. So yes, I think what we see as ‘asymmetric freedom’ inside SpaceTime only is valid inside it, even if bound to ‘distance-less-ness’. So maybe we are everywhere? If seen through Alice’s mirror. But as we can’t traverse to that side we won’t know.
« Last Edit: 07/01/2010 10:26:58 by yor_on »

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #49 on: 28/09/2009 18:45:31 »


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