The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: How is it possible that some people can see or predict the future?  (Read 30262 times)

Offline echochartruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
I have always wondered why it is possible that some can 'see' the future. Know the future, fortell the future. Mentally perceive it, even though it doesn't yet exist?

Some have an ability to see things to come, not just instances but buildings that have not been built or even thought of being built and yet they can describe the architecture and physical structure.

Some have the ability to predict accurately events that actually take place decades from the moment they are fortold even though they have nothing to do with the event apart from fortelling it.

How is it possible and yes it is possible.

Is there a scientific explanation for this? Are our lives mapped out entirely and are we doomed to follow a rigid life path that is already set out for each and everyone of us.

Can someone tell me how one can see what doesn't yet exist but does in the future (decades after being fortold) exactly as perceived by the minds eye by someone who has no influence on the event, landscape, people or anything?





 

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 20602
  • Thanked: 8 times
    • View Profile
Hi echochartruse,

well, I had no idea ewe were going to ask this so unfortunately I can't help help ewe............except that to say that in certain conditions and within enough data certain predictions can be made based on past performance....but to the level that ewe describe...I personally am exceptionally sceptical.................in my opinion !
 

Offline Karsten

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 701
    • View Profile
    • Fortunately still only a game
Before we look for a scientific explanation for something we should probably decide if this something is actually happening.

I have not seen or heard of conclusive evidence that predicting the future is possible or that individuals can reliably do it. Of course it is possible to "imagine" the future. And if you have many people imagining the future, some of those people are bound to be correct. But that is very different from a single person knowing what will be.

Some of the predictions are also phrased in ways that allow interpretations in many different directions. They are not precise, yet the person who likes to believe the prediction is true (or that predictions are possible) will declare them to be an exact match. Some things become true if you expect them to be true.

In addition, the predictions may actually influence or even cause the development of what was imagined or predicted. If you publish a prediction you cannot apply the scientific method very well. Certainly not blind testing.

And of course there are scientific predictions that can be very precise. Astronomers can predict lunar eclipses hundreds of years in advance for instance. That is more "calculating" than "predicting" though.

Billions of people imagine the future. A few imagined it correctly. That means to me that it does NOT work well at all.

It would be interesting to learn about conclusive evidence that shows I am wrong.
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8659
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Before we spend time seeking an explanation you need to prove this assertion "How is it possible and yes it is possible."

You need to prove that the aparent instances of prediction are not just coincidence.

If you can do this I suggest that you go and collect a million dollars from here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi_Educational_Foundation
then come and ask us about it.
 

Offline LeeE

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3382
    • View Profile
    • Spatial
I agree with Karsten that most premonitions are so vague and open to interpretation that they prove nothing.

However, I'm reminded of something I read (well before the internet/web age) in connection with the American Airlines (AA) DC-10 crash at Chicago O'Hare in 1979.  A person named David Booth had been having a recurring dream of an AA airliner crashing at O'Hare and eventually reported his fears to AA, who taking the premonition seriously, reported it to the U.S. Federal Aviation Authority (FAA).  Several meetings between Mr. Booth, AA and the FAA then occurred and both AA and the FAA considered Mr. Booth, who had no history of previous premonitions, to be sincere and not a crank.  However, one of the key features of his recurring dream was that the airliner rolled through >90 degrees, at a very low altitude, prior to crashing, which was problematic to both AA and the FAA as they could think of no reason for an airliner to have adopted this attitude at such low level, even if it was in difficulty.

In the end though, this was exactly what happened, as shown by the photograph at the top of the wikipedia article on the crash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191

In this case, the premonition seems to have been not only very accurate, but accurate in an unforeseeable way and unlikely to have been 'inspired' by other events.

It still doesn't prove anything, but it does show that some premonitions can have high degree of specific accuracy.
 

Offline Karsten

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 701
    • View Profile
    • Fortunately still only a game
Really cool, this David Booth premonition story. From what I read none of his later predictions came true. This one about the airplane crash is strange and weird enough though. Makes you wonder how much is still out there to be discovered and explained. Of course is doesn't help a lot that there are thousands and thousands of fakers making spectacular predictions and cheating gullible people out of their money for every serious person who feels they had a real premonition and don't get noticed. And how do you treat this phenomenon (I have a hard time calling it that since there is only one recorded example) if it is not repeatable by individuals? Like a meteor strike. Getting struck by a meteor is maybe not a talent.
 

Offline echochartruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
I agree with Karsten that most premonitions are so vague and open to interpretation that they prove nothing.

True anyone can intemperate however they wish, there could be thousands of interpretations and therefore it is the person who for sees the prediction that can only honestly decide if something has happened as predicted.

Most of these future predictions are described as unrealistic, unlikely, out of the norm and that alone is a wonder.

However, I'm reminded of something I read (well before the internet/web age) in connection with the American Airlines (AA) DC-10 crash at Chicago O'Hare in 1979.  A person named David Booth had been having a recurring dream of an AA airliner crashing at O'Hare and eventually reported his fears to AA, who taking the premonition seriously, reported it to the U.S. Federal Aviation Authority (FAA).  Several meetings between Mr. Booth, AA and the FAA then occurred and both AA and the FAA considered Mr. Booth, who had no history of previous premonitions, to be sincere and not a crank.  However, one of the key features of his recurring dream was that the airliner rolled through >90 degrees, at a very low altitude, prior to crashing, which was problematic to both AA and the FAA as they could think of no reason for an airliner to have adopted this attitude at such low level, even if it was in difficulty.

In the end though, this was exactly what happened, as shown by the photograph at the top of the wikipedia article on the crash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191

In this case, the premonition seems to have been not only very accurate, but accurate in an unforeseeable way and unlikely to have been 'inspired' by other events.

It still doesn't prove anything, but it does show that some premonitions can have high degree of specific accuracy.

Some of the predictions are also phrased in ways that allow interpretations in many different directions. They are not precise, yet the person who likes to believe the prediction is true (or that predictions are possible) will declare them to be an exact match. Some things become true if you expect them to be true.

In addition, the predictions may actually influence or even cause the development of what was imagined or predicted. If you publish a prediction you cannot apply the scientific method very well. Certainly not blind testing.

I doubt very much that people are able to 'will' the future to happen, or maybe they can but in instances where people predict happenings out of their lifetime it leaves it open for other explanations.

Throughout history predictions have been made and have eventuated, predictions for a reason, not related to the for seer. Usually told by the person 'seeing' the future and not making sense or predicting unreal, impossibilities difficult for the interpretor to accept.

Yes their are others (fakes) who take advantage of some for money. I don't believe this is something that can be turned on and off at will and therefore it is very difficult to test, but YES it does happen and I really don't understand why some deny it.

Have you ever changed your mind about something, that is totally out of the ordinary, out of your personality, out of your schedule only later to find that your action without thought has saved you from some grave circumstance? I think this is some sort of form of prediction, (possibly for sceptics)who don't want to acknowledge they predicted their future.

Yes it does happen, who is blind enough to deny it. Maybe we can't scientifically prove it (yet) but there are too many instances recorded throughout history to think that someone who has a great imagination can imagine it to actually happen, unless your talking about the artist/forward thinker who creates a futuristic whatever that some scientist/engineer/inventor adapts at a later date to produce. I'm not talking about that.

There are people who can forsee the future in detail, who knows, we all may have this weird ability. It has been proven to me fist hand.

My question is, how/why can someone describe a building in a location exactly 20 yrs prior to someone even thinking about building it? How can they describe the building in detail including the materials used in construction, the internal passageways, the view from a specific window that involves other people outside the building? How can someone do this when they have never been to the location of the building, have nothing to do with its construction or the instance of the prediction and especially accurately predict it prior to the birth one of the people outside the window?

How can that happen?

there has been countless records of future predictions and some agencies and professional departments rely on them as weird as they first must sound to the interperator. They do happen but How?



« Last Edit: 04/10/2009 01:56:47 by echochartruse »
 

Offline Don_1

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6890
  • Thanked: 7 times
  • A stupid comment for every occasion.
    • View Profile
    • Knight Light Haulage
It is true that some premonitions become reality. It is also true that their interpretation is very much open to opinion.

In the case Lee described, I think the point to bear in mind is that Mr Booth probably had no idea of the 90o angle being so unlikely. So while I would not call his premonition into question, I would conclude that it was a 1 in a billion fluke.

With these dreams & premonitions, I would say forget counting how many come to fruition, and count, instead, how many do not. The problem is, nobody tells you that they had a dream that didn't come true.
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8659
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
"but YES it does happen and I really don't understand why some deny it."
Because there is a difference between you saying it happens and actually providing any evidence.

I realise that Don wasn't being quantitative when he said "I would conclude that it was a 1 in a billion fluke." but the point remains that with 6 billion people on the plannet we ouught to get half a dozen coincidences like that every day.
It's just a coincidence. Until you can come up with some reason to believe otherwise then we are not going to accept your word for it. We still won't believe it, even if you put "YES" in capital letters.


 

Offline graham.d

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Millions of people try to predict the lottery result and quite a few people get it right from time to time. Are these people in any way remarkable in their ability? I think the answer is no.
 

Offline echochartruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
"but YES it does happen and I really don't understand why some deny it."
Because there is a difference between you saying it happens and actually providing any evidence.

the evidence is published daily and that is why such important people as the Queen of England, her family, Princess Dianna and many other well know public people engage others to predict their future. Even Princess Diana made a prediction and wrote in her diary about her accident that claimed her life.

Quote
I realise that Don wasn't being quantitative when he said "I would conclude that it was a 1 in a billion fluke." but the point remains that with 6 billion people on the plannet we ought to get half a dozen coincidences like that every day.
It's just a coincidence. Until you can come up with some reason to believe otherwise then we are not going to accept your word for it. We still won't believe it, even if you put "YES" in capital letters.

Even if there was only 1 person in the entire world that had a future prediction that eventuated, such as the Booth incidence, you could not deny it can happen.

When you look around you see future predictions made by normal everyday people eventuating. These premonitions are usually based on the need to avoid dangerous or undesirable situations (not winning lotteries). I believe that the American FBI use clairvoyants but that is another story as the instance has already happened.

It is true that some premonitions become reality. It is also true that their interpretation is very much open to opinion.

In the case Lee described, I think the point to bear in mind is that Mr Booth probably had no idea of the 90o angle being so unlikely. So while I would not call his premonition into question, I would conclude that it was a 1 in a billion fluke.

With these dreams & premonitions, I would say forget counting how many come to fruition, and count, instead, how many do not. The problem is, nobody tells you that they had a dream that didn't come true.

I'm not talking about dreams or coincidence. Future predictions are not flukes. Otherwise Booth would have kept it to himself, thinking "its just another dream, I'm not going to mention it to anyone, they will not take me serious, if it eventuates they will just call it a fluke" I'm sure he had no personal gain out of acting on his premonition.

So if one person in the entire world had a future premonition that came true, you say we should ignore it!? - because we can't explain it?! - Don't want to think about it! - goes against religion? - or just pretend it was a fluke and nothing like it will ever happen again.

This must be the reason why some who forsee the future don't announce it. I'm sure there are billions who have had a future premonition and kept it to themselves no matter how small or how largely it would affect others in it's outcome of eventuating.

To the smallest such as baking a cake thinking that an unknown, unplanned guest would come without any prior clue to premonitions such as being able to describe exactly a situation decades before to the birth of one of the participants or construction of a building to major world threatening incidents, people who deny it have their head in the sand. It does happen.

How to prove it? That's up to the scientists.
Surely their must be some investigations into premonitions taking place in this decade.

What I want to know is how it is possible
. How did Booth forsee this accident in the future?
Not "is it possible?"

 

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8125
  • Thanked: 53 times
    • View Profile
important people as the Queen of England, her family,
 Princess Dianna and many other well know public people engage others to predict their future

Their Royal highnesses did not obtain their positions of importance because of their intellectual ability.
They got the job because of who they were related to, (rather too closely related in some instances).

[There goes my chance of a Knighthood]


the American FBI use clairvoyants

American tax dollars would not be wasted on ridiculous paranormal nonsense, would they ?

Quote
The Men Who Stare at Goats is a book by Jon Ronson about the U.S. Army's exploration of New Age concepts and the potential military applications of the paranormal. The title refers to attempts to kill goats by staring at them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Stare_at_Goats

Or the physically impossible ?

Quote
The Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI) was a proposal by U.S. President Ronald Reagan on March 23, 1983 to use ground and space-based systems to protect the United States from attack by strategic nuclear ballistic missiles ... The ambitious initiative was "widely criticized as being unrealistic, even unscientific" ... It was soon derided as Star Wars, after the popular 1977 film by George Lucas. In 1987 the American Physics Society concluded that a global shield such as "Star Wars" was not only impossible with existing technology, but that ten more years of research was needed to learn whether it might ever be feasible." Under the administration of President Bill Clinton in 1993, its name was changed to the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization (BMDO) and its emphasis was shifted from national missile defense to theater missile defense; and it scope from global to regional coverage.
 It was never truly developed or deployed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Defense_Initiative

« Last Edit: 05/10/2009 06:57:20 by RD »
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8659
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
"the evidence is published daily and that is why such important people as the Queen of England, her family, Princess Dianna and many other well know public people engage others to predict their future. Even Princess Diana made a prediction and wrote in her diary about her accident that claimed her life."
Di might not have been the sharpest tool in the box, but even she would have done something about it if she really believed her life was in danger.
As it was, she was living dangerously anyway so it's no great shock that, among her silly choices was to get in a car with a pisssed driver and then not put on a seat belt.

With idiocy like that, a prediction of her death was like predicting that the sun would come up tomorrrow.

All the conspiracy theorists need to understand that data isn't the plural of anecdote.
Until you have some real data you should steer clear of science websites.
 

Offline echochartruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
RD, what tha....I think you are a little off track.

Until you have some real data you should steer clear of science websites.

Bored chemist are you telling me I'm not welcome on this site?
 

Offline that mad man

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 724
    • View Profile
    • My music
The Queen does not use psychics, Diana and Fergie did as they were into all that "new age" psychic stuff. Di's diary entries still remain private and strangely enough it was her psychic who released the information to promote her book.

In 2004 David Booth predicted an asteroid destroying part of the earth, it never happened. He is also one of these people who talks about "the end times" and quotes the Bible a lot. There are no transcripts of his talks to the FAA so most of it is now hearsay.

Quote from 2004; "Next week on October 13th will be the 87th year since the Holy Mother last warned this world about these times and the events that must occur shortly." He also links the end of the Mayan calendar to the end of the world so all this should be taken with a pinch of salt!

The FBI experimented with clairvoyants and also remote seeing/sensing but stopped doing so years ago when they found out it didn't work. The FBI documents released clearly state that fact and that it was a waste of time.

The reason why the SDI was not fully developed was because it had very little chance of working. Despite scientists advising him that it wouldn't work Regan was convinced that it would so lots of cash was spent on a failed idea. Some of the test footage of a laser strike on a missile was in fact faked by using wires to pull it apart, this has also been admitted. Clinton not only changed the name he also cancelled that program, although Space based research is still on the budget.

As they say on the X-Files, the truth is out there.

 

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8125
  • Thanked: 53 times
    • View Profile
RD, what tha....I think you are a little off track.

Nope.
 You claim because British Royalty and the American government engaged in particular activities then they must be scientifically valid,
 my examples illustrate that that is not necessarily the case. 

« Last Edit: 05/10/2009 18:08:12 by RD »
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8659
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
RD, what tha....I think you are a little off track.

Until you have some real data you should steer clear of science websites.

Bored chemist are you telling me I'm not welcome on this site?

I'm inviting you to demonstrate that what you are saying is science; if it's not science then I (personally) don't think it should be on this site.
So far, though you have been asked repeatedly, you have yet to provide any real evidence.

Di's "clairvoiant's" attempts to sell her books are not science; nor are coincidences.
Putting things in CAPITAL LETTERS doesn't make them true either.

I said at the outset that, unless you can prove that there is anything but coincidence involved, there is no point trying to explain it.
I am still waiting for that proof.
 

Offline echochartruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
I came to this site with my question for science. Am I also to answer it as well?

I'm inviting you to demonstrate that what you are saying is science; if it's not science then I (personally) don't think it should be on this site.
So far, though you have been asked repeatedly, you have yet to provide any real evidence.

I am not a scientist.  Most of you show disbelief without investigation that premonitions do happen.

My apology to those who have never had some type of premonition at all or who know of another who has. Maybe my question should be... "why doesn't everyone have premonitions?"

therefore I am  forced to look at other publications and ask other scientists and in doing so I have found that, yes science is investigating 'premonitions' and this is some which I have found and feel I should share with you.

Quote
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-452833/Is-REALLY-proof-man-future.html#ixzz0T67PF1S5 
Professor Brian Josephson, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist from Cambridge University, says: "So far, the evidence seems compelling. What seems to be happening is that information is coming from the future.
"In fact, it's not clear in physics why you can't see the future. In physics, you certainly cannot completely rule out this effect."
.

I understand that it is difficult to test, but '
Quote
"So far, the evidence seems compelling.

my question is "How is it possible"

So all I can say is if the scientific members of the world continue to bury their head in the sand about such things no wonder this subject is labeled 'paranormal'. paranormal adj. Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation:.
It only takes one scientist to retrieve it from that category, I believe professor Brian Josephson has done that.

Is there anyone on this web site who can answer my question or direct me to find the answer?
 

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8125
  • Thanked: 53 times
    • View Profile
I came to this site with my question for science. Am I also to answer it as well?

If you know the answer why ask the question ?

I understand that it is difficult to test

No it is easy to test: ask the morbid psychotic psychic to provide specific details about some future plane crash,
e.g. date and time of crash, or names of crew members or passengers.

If they can provide this type of specific information then they really can predict the future, or they've put a bomb on the plane, (the latter is more likely).
« Last Edit: 06/10/2009 00:02:25 by RD »
 


Offline harryh11

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
Or, He just made an incredibly lucky guess.
Only if he could repeat the level of accuracy a number of times would we then realise that premonitions may be true.

No one can see the future. (Most likely)
 

Offline echochartruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile

If you know the answer why ask the question ?


RD - if you can't answer my question why do you reply?

We have established it is scientifically being tested but you seem to be stuck on the idea it has nothing to do with science.

Quote
‘Unless we accept [atoms’] reality, we can hardly explain the observable
phenomena. Nor can we explain that we can calculate with such great precision
how many atoms there are in a certain volume. [...] The very fact that the atomic
hypothesis finds empirical support in the many and distinct domains in which
atoms supposedly operate causally to generate real, observable phenomena gives
good reason to accept that atoms are real.
(Scientific Realism (London: Routledge,
1999), p.22)

Same here, Preminitions do happen, people all over the world have them every day.
"How is it possible????"
 

Offline Karsten

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 701
    • View Profile
    • Fortunately still only a game
I am not a trained scientist, but...

You are asking for scientific evaluations and opinions on something that has not proven to work more than once (and billions of times did not). And even that one time is debatable (although quite interesting). At the moment we have not seen acceptable records for more than one occurrence.

You are in essence asking scientists to speculate about non-existent data. You just can't get a satisfactory answer from scientists because scientists base their answers on data. Without data there is nothing to talk about.

Supply the data and you will get an answer. Otherwise you will harvest disbelief. Skepticism is a natural state of mind for a scientist. You can't think scientifically about anything well if you don't distrust the data you have. Part of finding scientific truth is to not being able to proving something wrong. If you can't find evidence that it is not true, it must be true.  If you don't want skepticism, don't talk to scientists.

Maybe you would find more attentive listeners in a science fiction forum. People there might happily speculate about speculations. Or a spiritual/new age/paranormal forum. Some place where "facts" are accepted without demanding evidence.
 

Offline Karsten

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 701
    • View Profile
    • Fortunately still only a game
(...) Premonitions do happen, people all over the world have them every day.

Says who? We agreed (more or less) that ONE person had ONE in 1978.

Maybe we should start with defining "premonition"? Explain to us what you think a "premonition" is. Maybe you think that simply having the thought that something might become true is already a premonition.
 

Offline that mad man

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 724
    • View Profile
    • My music
Can you name anyone else who has had a premonition come true and verified from the 6 billion + people living on the planet?







 

The Naked Scientists Forum


 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums