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Author Topic: How is it possible that some people can see or predict the future?  (Read 30304 times)

Offline echochartruse

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I am not a trained scientist, but...

You are asking for scientific evaluations and opinions on something that has not proven to work more than once (and billions of times did not). And even that one time is debatable (although quite interesting).
EVEN IF ONE PERSON ONLY HAS THIS EXPERIENCE ONCE IN THEIR LIFE, (EVEN THOUGH THERE IS PROOF MANY HAVE AND SOME HAVE MORE THAN ONE EXPERIENCE PER LIFETIME) THEN THERE SHOULD BE A SCIENTIFIC EXPLAINATION FOR IT.

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At the moment we have not seen acceptable records for more than one occurrence.
SOMETHING MORE TO BE SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINED.

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You are in essence asking scientists to speculate about nonexistent data.
OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE NOT RESEACHED THE SUBJECT OR READ MY LINKS.

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You just can't get a satisfactory answer from scientists because scientists base their answers on data. Without data there is nothing to talk about.


READ THIS PROFESSOR BRIAN JOSEPHSON HAS DATA YOU SEEK.
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Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-452833/Is-REALLY-proof-man-future.html#ixzz0T67PF1S5
Professor Brian Josephson, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist from Cambridge University, says: "So far, the evidence seems compelling. What seems to be happening is that information is coming from the future.
"In fact, it's not clear in physics why you can't see the future. In physics, you certainly cannot completely rule out this effect."

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Supply the data and you will get an answer. Otherwise you will harvest disbelief. Skepticism is a natural state of mind for a scientist. You can't think scientifically about anything well if you don't distrust the data you have. Part of finding scientific truth is to not being able to proving something wrong. If you can't find evidence that it is not true, it must be true.  If you don't want skepticism, don't talk to scientists.

YOU SHOULD DEFINATELY READ THIS -
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:YRaXDYO2hm0J:users.ox.ac.uk/~shil0124/papers/parapsychology.pdf+scientific+research+into+premonisions+premonitions&hl=en&gl=au&sig=AFQjCNHt2ja-3co-E1FsDrp83B252tJBuA

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Maybe you would find more attentive listeners in a science fiction forum. People there might happily speculate about speculations. Or a spiritual/new age/paranormal forum. Some place where "facts" are accepted without demanding evidence.

AS YOU SAID YOU ARE NOT A SCIENTIST.
 

Offline echochartruse

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Can you name anyone else who has had a premonition come true and verified from the 6 billion + people living on the planet?

YOU ALSO HAVE NOT BOTHERED TO READ THE LINKS I POSTED.

HERE ARE A FEW MORE
[Abraham Lincoln had a very vivid premonition of his death. Ten days before he was assassinated he dreamt he was in the East Wing of the White House where people were mourning. When he asked a soldier who had died, he was told "The President"]

[The novelist Mark Twain predicted that Halley's Comet would be seen on the day of his death, just as it was when he was born. Twain died on Halley's 1910 appearance on April 20]
 

Offline RD

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Abraham Lincoln had a very vivid premonition of his death. Ten days before he was assassinated he dreamt he was in the East Wing of the White House where people were mourning. When he asked a soldier who had died, he was told "The President"

He had assassination threats even before he was inaugurated, so if he did have dreams about his assassination they are understandable nightmares as a consequence of past events, but not premonitions of the future ...

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President-elect Lincoln survived the alleged assassination attempt in Baltimore, Maryland. On February 23, 1861, he arrived secretly in Washington, D.C. But for the remainder of his presidency Lincoln's many critics would hound him for the seemingly cowardly act of sneaking through Baltimore at night, in disguise, sacrificing his honor for his personal safety. However, the efforts at security may well have been prudent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Plot
« Last Edit: 06/10/2009 03:32:09 by RD »
 

Offline echochartruse

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Titanic carried only fifty eight percent of her passenger load on her doomed maiden voyage, and some passengers had even canceled their tickets.[6] There are also many stories of people who survived the September 11, 2001 attack on the World Trade Center in New York City due to not having arrived in their office on time that day, as well as numerous accounts of premonitions of the event.[7]
After a Welsh coal mining accident in 1966 killed 116 children and 28 adults, surveys taken after the tragedy showed a great number of people who claimed to have had premonitions, dreams, or visions of the tragedy before it happened. Shortly afterwards, in 1967, British psychiatrist Barker established the British Premonitions Bureau, in the hope that the collection of any and all precognitive experiences might aid in preventing future tragedies. A year later, a similar organization, the Central Premonitions Registry, was formed in New York. Both collected large numbers of premonitions from the general populace. The collection of premonitions to avoid disaster proved to be impractical, however, and both institutions were gradually shut down.[8]
 

Offline echochartruse

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He had assassination threats even before he was inaugurated, so if he did had dreams about his assassination they are understandable nightmares as a consequence of past events, but not premonitions of the future ...
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President-elect Lincoln survived the alleged assassination attempt in Baltimore, Maryland. On February 23, 1861, he arrived secretly in Washington, D.C. But for the remainder of his presidency Lincoln's many critics would hound him for the seemingly cowardly act of sneaking through Baltimore at night, in disguise, sacrificing his honor for his personal safety. However, the efforts at security may well have been prudent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Plot

yes we all try to avoid death.

There are countless preminisions of peoples own death recorded.

Death is sure its the way we go thats different.
 

Offline echochartruse

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People do have premonitions that eventuate. there is no doubt about it. just because a single person doesn't have 2 premonitions doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just because it is difficult to test doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just because a division is shut down due to lack of funds or the inability to induce a preminition on demand doesn't mean it is not worthy of scientific investigations.

Science has even given this study its own division - parapsychology so we can say that other/some scientists think it is worthy of investigating.

If it only happened once in the earths lifetime, I would still want to know 'How can someone see the future'
 

Offline echochartruse

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by the way

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The collection of premonitions to avoid disaster proved to be impractical, however, and both institutions were gradually shut down.


preminitions = future happening, if you could avoid them it wouldn't be a preminition, would it.
 

Offline RD

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People do have premonitions that eventuate. there is no doubt about it.

You may have no doubt about it but you have still to present an example which proves premonition has occurred.

just because it is difficult to test doesn't mean it doesn't happen

see ... http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=25979.msg278336#msg278336

...induce a preminition on demand

I never suggested that, just that whenever the psychic feels like making a prediction it has plenty of specific details which could not be estimated from past events, e.g. Mark Twain, 73 and in failing health, correctly estimating his month of death, a few months hence.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2009 04:27:29 by RD »
 

Offline echochartruse

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The novelist Mark Twain predicted that Halley's Comet would be seen on the day of his death, just as it was when he was born. Twain died on Halley's 1910 appearance on April 20 - not just 'correctly estimated his month of death' as you state.

London’s Daily Mail reports on a Dutch professor of psychology, Dr. Dick Bierman, wants to quantify such presentiments, following up on a revealing experiment done by Dr Dean Radin, a former researcher on the military project Stargate, which looked into the phenomenon of ‘remote viewing’ and psychic premonition. Radin hooked ordinary subjects to a lie detector in order to measure changes in galvanic skin response. He then flashed at random a series of photos, some of which were violent or erotic. One would expect galvanic skin response to spike when such pictures appeared, but Radin discovered a strange phenomenon. Subjects tended to respond a few seconds in advance of the actual image flashing on the screen. In other words, they sensed an event before it occurred.
Subsequently the experiment was successfully replicated, startling even a Nobel Prize winner who acted as a subject. Dr. Bierman in Amsterdam is verifying that specific brain areas light up when presentiment occurs. He is certain that the phenomenon is real; now he wants to determine if certain people are more gifted at presentiment than others. This is the best glimpse to date that anyone has had of the mind field’s existence as an everyday affair, for it would appear that to some extent all of us have experienced hunches, intuitive flashes, sudden premonitions, and other hints of foreknowledge. How far does this phenomenon extend, and what is its deeper significance?

and in case you didn't read my post.........

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-452833/Is-REALLY-proof-man-future.html#ixzz0T67PF1S5
Professor Brian Josephson, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist from Cambridge University, says: "So far, the evidence seems compelling. What seems to be happening is that information is coming from the future.
"In fact, it's not clear in physics why you can't see the future. In physics, you certainly cannot completely rule out this effect."

so you will just have to accept the EVIDENCE



 

Offline echochartruse

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It boils down to some people wanting to believe in premonitions.  You want science to put its seal of approval on premonitions, but it can't -- and it can't tell you "how" people have premonitions that come true except to say that it's merely by chance.  You have not commented on any scientific facts that I presented to you.  I am a trained scientist.  I worked in the field predicting failures.

so you say the Nobel Prize winner is wrong?

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You want science to put its seal of approval on premonitions, but it can't -- and it can't tell you "how" people have premonitions that come true except to say that it's merely by chance.

Just because science or the scientist can't prove it doesn't mean it isn't true, I read that in a science journal.either such phenomena are held to be essentially beyond scientific explanation (in which case parapsychology has to relinquish its scientific status), or paranormal just means not presently accepted by non-parapsychological science’. When the closed minds belong to philosophers and scientists – It is a shameful fact.

So now you are telling me that among so many people who ever thought that they had a premonition including Booth just had a good imagination, a coincidence of imagery, a powerful understanding of past events. Even though Booth in his 'coincidence' knew nothing of aircraft, plucked '90 degrees' out of the air by coincidence and just had to stake his reputation on telling someone important about his 'fluke idea'.... GARBAGE!#

I don't know what someone does in the field of 'predicting failures' but think when you once worked there premonitions could/should have played an important part, but I would imagine that you used a more calculated approach. As you speak I cant imagine you closing your eyes and predicting anything, tell me about your process

{PREDICTING, I think that is something other than premonition, something more calculated taking into account past proceedures, mathematics, graphs, blah blah blah. where PREMONITION is 'forseen' without calculations, graphs, maths etc.}

yes, yes I agree there are so many trying to make money out of this sort of thing.
it's the ones who don't I think would be more genuine, the ones compelled to announce it even if it meant ridicule and as one Nobel Prize winning scientist said...the evidence seems compelling. People are able to see the future.

As you said SCIENCE can't tell me 'HOW' seeing the future can happen, but please dont deny it happens, or try to hide it under coincidence, fluke, imagination, understanding of the past, that is what is GARBAGE.

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And that means that, if the experimenter ever gets round to trying to explain what’s going on or how it’s happening – rather than merely establishing for the umpteenth time that there’s something to be explained – she’ll
be working in the shadow of a significant begged question.

So I am sure we all agree Premonitions do occure. My question is how

and it is apparent that no scientist can tell me, at this stage in time anyway.




 

Offline BenV

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Supply the data and you will get an answer. Otherwise you will harvest disbelief. Skepticism is a natural state of mind for a scientist. You can't think scientifically about anything well if you don't distrust the data you have. Part of finding scientific truth is to not being able to proving something wrong. If you can't find evidence that it is not true, it must be true.  If you don't want skepticism, don't talk to scientists.


Where did that quote come from?

I disagree with this bit:
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If you can't find evidence that it is not true, it must be true.
Surely that should say "If you can't find evidence that it is not true, then you cannot say that it is not true."  It's nonsense to say it must be true.


Also - I haven't read through this entire thread, but has somebody mentioned reporter bias?  We all have premonitions all the time - it's part and parcel of having an imagination - but only when they come true do people pipe up and claim there's something magical going on.  Pretty much every flight, bus or train journey I've ever been on, there's a point where my brain spins through what could happen, and what I should do about it.  Should I one day be on a train that crashes, it's therefore quite likely that I will have thought about it crashing before it does - Does this mean I had a premonition about the crash?  No.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2009 10:22:38 by BenV »
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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So I am sure we all agree Premonitions do occure. My question is how

Even though you used capital letters to insist they occur, I'm pretty sure we don't all agree that premonitions occur. First it must be proved that they do occur, then an explanation is required. No explanation is required for something that doesn't occur.

It has, however, been explained why people think premonitions occur, or why it seems like an event was predicted through supernatural means.
 

Offline Karsten

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Supply the data and you will get an answer. Otherwise you will harvest disbelief. Skepticism is a natural state of mind for a scientist. You can't think scientifically about anything well if you don't distrust the data you have. Part of finding scientific truth is to not being able to proving something wrong. If you can't find evidence that it is not true, it must be true.  If you don't want skepticism, don't talk to scientists.

Where did that quote come from?
[/quote]


That was me. Why?
 

Offline BenV

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I disagree with this bit:
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If you can't find evidence that it is not true, it must be true.
Surely that should say "If you can't find evidence that it is not true, then you cannot say that it is not true."  It's nonsense to say it must be true.  I'm in full agreement with the rest, though.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2009 13:49:11 by BenV »
 

Offline that mad man

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Can you name anyone else who has had a premonition come true and verified from the 6 billion + people living on the planet?

YOU ALSO HAVE NOT BOTHERED TO READ THE LINKS I POSTED.


Sorry but you are very wrong. I have read the links(some I already knew about)otherwise I would not have commented on them or given additional information. We need verification to corroborate these "strange" events otherwise its just a few chance happenings out of the 6 billion + people.

Dick Bierman has conducted only 2 tests each with 20 subjects, so until a proper controlled blind experiment is carried out the data is suspect. Also having people chose to take part when they know what the experiment is about beforehand will also taint any results.

To back up what DiscoverDave said the Edinburgh experiments allegedly showed that females tend to exhibit greater environmental sensitivity. Unfortunately it overlaps between environmental sensitivity and certain physical conditions. Its also linked with depression, more prevalent in women (with symptoms getting worse during menstruation) and also genetic predispositions. Its probably one of the reasons why the majority of psychics tend to be females as most believe they are closer to mother nature. Given that, one would expect a greater amount of female premonitions than males and so far its been just a few males and some dodgy anecdotal evidence.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

I notice Both never applied!
 

Offline RD

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The novelist Mark Twain predicted that Halley's Comet would be seen on the day of his death, just as it was when he was born. Twain died on Halley's 1910 appearance on April 20 - not just 'correctly estimated his month of death' as you state.

Halley's comet is visible to the naked eye for a about a month (assuming clear skies),
 if you use a telescope it is visible for months / years, depending on power of the telescope.

Re: predictions related to astronomical objects...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peekskill_Meteorite

If a psychic could predict the number plate of this car hit by a meteorite, that would be strong evidence of prognostication. That's the level of specific detail which would be required to prove someone could see into the future.

[I'd love to see the insurance claim form for the totalled Chevvy]
« Last Edit: 06/10/2009 20:10:26 by RD »
 

Offline echochartruse

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"There have always been the debunker's and strict disbelievers dedicated to dismissing it all without so much as a glance at the  data."

FOR THOSE WHO CONTINUALLY IGNORE MY POSTS AND CONTINUE ON ABOUT PROOF, I HAVE QUOTED A PORTION OF THE EXERPT THAT I LINKED TO IN THE BEGINING OF THIS POST TO SHOW YOU THAT SCIENTIFIC EXPERIEMENTS HAD BEEN CONDUCTED (THEREFORE IT MUST BE A SCIENCE IN ITS OWN RIGHT).

DUE TO THE FACT THAT THIS IS LENGTHY I WILL LEAVE IT UP TO YOU TO FOLLOW THE LINK AND READ ALL OF IT, BUT PLEASE DON’T ASK AGAIN FOR PROOF.

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Do some of us avoid tragedy by foreseeing it? Some scientists now believe that the brain really CAN predict events before they happen
Professor Dick Bierman sits hunched over his computer in a darkened room. The gentle whirring of machinery can be heard faintly in the background.
He smiles and presses a grubby-looking red button.
In the next room, a patient slips slowly inside a hospital brain scanner. If it wasn't for the strange smiles and grimaces that flicker across the woman's face, you could be forgiven for thinking this was just a normal health check.
But this scanner is engaged in one of the most profound paranormal experiments of all time, one that may well prove whether or not it is possible to predict the future.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-452833/Is-REALLY-proof-man-future.html#ixzz0TAx2Kl

The skeptics, however, say the data do not sway them.

Since my question could not be answered here but others are raised i have had to search elsewhere for information as all I seem to get here is sceptisism, some rediculous non scientific answers and no relevant information.

Yet again, the illogic used by people who believe in premonitions focuses on the one Nobelist and not on the legions of other scientists.

Here are a few more scientists, I so easily found, who have investigated scientifically premonitions and the likes and also agree through the results of their experiements that premonition does take place. I was able to find these in 10 minutes and I would imagine being a scientist would give you knowledge of where to find more.

Dr Jessica Utts, a statistician at the University of California,
The scientist Ed Cox
Researcher Dean Radin, director at the Institute of Noetic Sciences
The Rhine Research Center compiles files of premonition.
Dr Kary Mullis, a Nobel Prizewinning chemist,
Nobel Prizewinning physicist Brian Josephson.
Professor Bierman, a psychologist at the University of Amsterdam.
Other researchers from around the world, from Edinburgh University to Cornell in the US,
For many years the US military (and latterly the CIA)

I would imagine those to be just a few of so many more I have yet to discover.

I find it humorous that people, scientists here, only rely on the information I provide to state their case and neglect years of scientific investigation.

[qoute Read more: http://psychic-abilities.suite101.com/article.cfm
/psychic_phenomena_and_the_power_of_premonitions#ixzz0TB2WtnZU]

Modern quantum physics research is adding support to the possibilities that premonitions and other psychic powers are not only possible but conform to new understandings of physics.

As scientists conduct large and rigidly controlled experiments, they continue to accumulate evidence of the validity of premonitions, [/quote]

Read more: http://psychic-abilities.suite101.com/article.cfm
/psychic_phenomena_and_the_power_of_premonitions#ixzz0TB2WtnZU

"continue to accumulate evidence" a science evolving!

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Around 1992, the German mathematician discovered what he called the quantum hologram. In essentially it explores  4 basic quantum processes. Entanglement, coherence/quantum correlation and the 2

I find especially relevant regarding paranormal events: nonlocality and interconnectedness. Nonlinear and nonlocality by themselves alter our view of space, time and reality and reflect on pre/retrocognition and premonitions as well as that more common experience of deja vu.in Under a nonlocal, multiuniverse concept,
2 or more  events can be happening simultaneously which we are unconsciously tapping into to or we may be remembering something that has not yet happened to us which is the definition of retrocognition.

Marie D.Jones who stated that: "We know at the quantum level [time] is not linear and that the past,present and future all exist at one.For every now we experience, a positive wave flows into the future and a negative wave flows into the past.not unlike the ripple effect created by dropping a pebble into the water". This certainly has implications on telepathy, pre/retrocognition, premonitions and our everyday lives in general.

And for the naysayers of the paranormal, it is always important to maintain a dose of healthy skepticism but remember that the absence of proof is not the proof of absence.

http://knol.google.com/k/k-molto-phd/physics-and-the-paranormal/12dcvs1lr1twq/8#

retrocognition love that word, it takes 'premonition' out of the paranormal and into science, at least for me.

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As scientists conduct large and rigidly controlled experiments, they continue to accumulate evidence of the validity of premonitions,

Scientists recognize that natural laws must conform to observed evidence. When new evidence appears to violate previous understandings of natural laws, either the evidence is faulty or the laws are insufficient.

Read more: http://psychic-abilities.suite101.com/article.cfm/psychic_phenomena_and_the_power_of_premonitions#ixzz0TB2v5gZO

When science can't explain such things as 'premonitions'and others it is so easy for people to gathers these unexplained situations into a religion or belief. Science has now taken 'premonition' and called it 'pre/retrocognition' in the attempt to take it away from the paranormal and into science.

There is no doubt about it, premonition or pre/precognition does happen, as I cant imagine all the scients involved in these experiements wasting their time and money continulally, if it didn't.

          as stated:- "science just haven't yet established the mechanism allowing it to happen."

Eleven words that clearly answer my question.






 

Offline echochartruse

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Sorry but you are very wrong.

To back up what DiscoverDave said the Edinburgh experiments allegedly showed that females tend to exhibit greater environmental sensitivity. Unfortunately it overlaps between environmental sensitivity and certain physical conditions. Its also linked with depression, more prevalent in women (with symptoms getting worse during menstruation) and also genetic predispositions. Its probably one of the reasons why the majority of psychics tend to be females as most believe they are closer to mother nature. Given that, one would expect a greater amount of female premonitions than males and so far its been just a few males and some dodgy anecdotal evidence.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

I notice Both never applied!


do ya think men might not want to speak about their experiences?

Can you prove premonitions don't happen?
 

Offline echochartruse

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And I’ll leave you with this — My own experiences with this subject is that, by and far, people who believe in premonitions and telepathy are female.  Here’s a scientific guess: Are you female?

Out of the scientist I found in the first 10 mins of looking most are male.

Did you just sumised or was it calculated and what evidence do you supply?
 

Offline RD

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Can you prove premonitions don't happen?

Quote
The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam ("appeal to ignorance" ), argument by lack of imagination, or negative evidence, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or is false only because it has not been proven true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
 

Offline Karsten

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BTW, is it still a premonition if it the predicted even does not happen? Say, someone has a premonition (or thinks they do) and it points towards disaster. All efforts are put forward to prevent the disaster and the disaster never occurs. Is it still a premonition? Or can it only be a premonition if what was predicted happens no matter what is done to prevent it from happening? How can you predict the future if the future can be changed/influenced? Or maybe it can't?

Can you tell someone about your premonition since telling would influence those you tell and therefor possibly change the future and limit (or increase) the chances for your premonition to occur?  But if you are super-secretive about it, it is not officially recorded.

We need a Premonition Recording Department! Somewhere were people can send in their detailed premonitions in form of a sealed, real letter, the date of receipt is recorded, the "premonitioner" is required to submit a date on which the predicted event is to have happened and the letter to be opened the day after. That will get things going. There should be a fee for this service. Otherwise there will be hundreds (if not hundred thousands) of premonitions that cannot be taken seriously.

Nonetheless, ideally premonitions are to occur in total solitude in a controlled environment. Otherwise we risk the problem described in paragraph 2 above. Maybe people should apply to spend some time at the Premonition Recording Department where they would receive a room and board to "premonish" in peace and solitude. That would increase the entry fee of course.
 

Offline Karsten

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Can you prove premonitions don't happen?

Can you prove Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy don't exist? Good luck with that approach to science!
 

Offline Karsten

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I disagree with this bit:
Quote
If you can't find evidence that it is not true, it must be true.
Surely that should say "If you can't find evidence that it is not true, then you cannot say that it is not true."  It's nonsense to say it must be true.  I'm in full agreement with the rest, though.

I guess what I wanted to say is that...
If a scientific theory can be proven to not work sometimes, the theory needs to be reworked since (as it is written) it is not true under all circumstances. Or the other way around, if no one can prove my theory to not work, it must be a good theory and true at least until we know better. Not right? 
 

Offline RD

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We need a Premonition Recording Department!

Echochartruse did mention this had been tried, and abandoned …

... British psychiatrist Barker established the British Premonitions Bureau, in the hope that the collection of any and all precognitive experiences might aid in preventing future tragedies. A year later, a similar organization, the Central Premonitions Registry, was formed in New York. Both collected large numbers of premonitions from the general populace.  The collection of premonitions to avoid disaster proved to be impractical, however, and both institutions were gradually shut down.

[Shooting youself in the foot there Echochartruse].

This concept exists on the internet e.g. ... http://www.prophecies.us/
« Last Edit: 06/10/2009 21:27:01 by RD »
 

Offline echochartruse

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Can you prove premonitions don't happen?

Quote
The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam ("appeal to ignorance" ), argument by lack of imagination, or negative evidence, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or is false only because it has not been proven true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

stupid statement, what relevance?

if you get hit in the head with a bat is it only true if you scientifically investigate the options with multiple groups, of differnet sex, at different times of the day, etc ,etc...

If only one person ever had a premonition that eventuated in the records of the entire earth's life, can you still deny it happened?

Some people's lives evolve around negativity they are so happy to live their lives in denial.
These people probably think the 2 negatives make it OK

 

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