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Author Topic: Can atoms be made?  (Read 14724 times)

Offline Dimi

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Can atoms be made?
« on: 14/10/2009 22:33:42 »
Greetings.


Can atoms be made, or are we limited by the whole of the physical universe by what we have (so if we destroy an atom to release energy, it will never be replaced)

I have wondered that.

A Universal law (by our understanding) would be that something can not come from nothing, correct?
« Last Edit: 18/10/2009 12:40:07 by chris »


 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Re: Can atoms be made?
« Reply #1 on: 14/10/2009 23:27:08 »
Atoms may be made, however current technology could not allow this.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Can atoms be made?
« Reply #2 on: 14/10/2009 23:58:41 »
I suspect atoms are made routinely in empty space as gamma radiation from stars interacts in space. The most simple atom would be created in the greatest abundance. First we would probably get single protons and electrons forming separately. These then meet up and form hydrogen atoms. This speculation then has the hydrogen atoms accumulating in huge clouds. The clouds eventually form accretion disks from which stars are born. Stars accumulate into galaxies which spew out gamma radiation which continues the cycle.

I suspect it will be about another hundred years before this reality is accepted by the scientific community, which now adheres to the magical Big-Bang notion of universe creation.

Edit: Magic is defined as some mechanism that operates outside of the recognized physical laws of nature to bring about some perceived experience.
« Last Edit: 15/10/2009 00:02:31 by Vern »
 

Offline yor_on

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Offline Vern

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Re: Can atoms be made?
« Reply #4 on: 17/10/2009 03:17:06 »
Well; I scrubbed through the link rereading it a few times; I didn't find anything that suggested that atoms are not routinely created from gamma radiation in space. So I continue to suspect that they are. And I continue to suspect that this is the normal and natural way that nature operates.

Just to restate how it seems that the cosmos works; galaxies spew out gamma radiation and ionic debris which accumulates in clouds in deep space which form accretion disks. These accretion disks then form new galaxies of stars which continue the process. So we have a continuing cycle that can go on and on forever.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Re: Can atoms be made?
« Reply #5 on: 17/10/2009 03:19:00 »
They must be created all the time!
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Can atoms be made?
« Reply #6 on: 17/10/2009 03:33:11 »
They must be created all the time!
This seems so to me. And for advocates of a steady state universe, there only needs to ba about one proton per cubic mile of space created each year to carry on the cycle.  This quantity probably needs study.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can atoms be made?
« Reply #7 on: 17/10/2009 15:53:08 »
They must be created all the time!
This seems so to me. And for advocates of a steady state universe, there only needs to ba about one proton per cubic mile of space created each year to carry on the cycle.  This quantity probably needs study.
There are problems with a steady state universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbers'_paradox
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Re: Can atoms be made?
« Reply #8 on: 17/10/2009 17:00:17 »
Olbers paradox is not very accurate to use. It would have been best to possibly link to the CMB.

http://www.site.uottawa.ca:4321/astronomy/index.html#Olbersparadox
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can atoms be made?
« Reply #9 on: 17/10/2009 17:17:32 »
The page you have cited doesn't seem to add anything to the discussion.
In any event, the fact that it goes dark at night constitutes a problem for the "steady state universe" idea.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Re: Can atoms be made?
« Reply #10 on: 17/10/2009 17:25:12 »
The part i wanted you to read was this:

We now know that several of the assumptions made by Olbers (explicitly or implicitly) are incorrect.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Can atoms be made?
« Reply #11 on: 17/10/2009 18:49:34 »
Olbers paradox is not valid because light does not go on forever in space. We know that it shifts from higher to lower frequencies. We used to say that this was a Doppler effect. Now, I think we say it is the result of expanding space. I like to suspect that it is the interaction of light with space debris. Whatever the cause, light does not go on forever. So Olber had it wrong :)
« Last Edit: 17/10/2009 18:55:25 by Vern »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can atoms be made?
« Reply #12 on: 17/10/2009 19:40:00 »
Is space expanding or is it a steady state?
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Re: Can atoms be made?
« Reply #13 on: 17/10/2009 19:45:26 »
Is space expanding or is it a steady state?

It's accelerating.
 

Offline Vern

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Re: Can atoms be made?
« Reply #14 on: 17/10/2009 20:49:31 »
Is space expanding or is it a steady state?
I suspect that the universe exists much as it has for more time than we can imagine. Galaxies convert matter into radiation and ionic debris. Radiation and ionic debris recombine in deep space, eventually forming new galaxies. My speculative view is that it is a continuing process that goes on forever.

Lyndon Ashmore has a view that is close to my speculation.
« Last Edit: 17/10/2009 20:53:43 by Vern »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can atoms be made?
« Reply #15 on: 17/10/2009 22:01:07 »
"Tired light" has problems too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tired_light
 

Offline Vern

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Can atoms be made?
« Reply #16 on: 18/10/2009 14:00:25 »
"Tired light" has problems too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tired_light
As far as I can determine, all the problems have been addressed satisfactorily. The most troubling one, as I recall, was time dilation which appears in observations of 1A supernova.  Two things about the observations support "tired light". One is that the overall brightness observed is less than it should be. The other is that different frequencies of light move at different speeds. Combine these two and we see that the supernova event may be smeared over time with the fastest light arriving first followed by the slower light. Ashmore provides frequency curves of observations to support this.
 

Offline Mad Mark

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Can atoms be made?
« Reply #17 on: 19/10/2009 23:25:08 »
In this steady state universe you propose, where is the anti matter that would also be created going?
If you were able to create a LHC the size of the solar system you would just about reach E=mc2 and create hydrogen atoms but then your left with the problem of its anti particle ruining your new baby you just spent a fortune on.
Only conditions in the very early proceedings of the big bang allowed some of these new atoms to escape destruction although for the life of me I don't know how they did it,and would love to see a mathematical model to show how hydrogen atoms managed to survive their anti brothers.
« Last Edit: 19/10/2009 23:27:38 by Mad Mark »
 

Offline Pmb

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Can atoms be made?
« Reply #18 on: 19/10/2009 23:34:45 »
Quote from: Dimi
Can atoms be made, or are we limited by the whole of the physical universe by what we have (so if we destroy an atom to release energy, it will never be replaced)
What do you mean by "made"? IF you "make" a desk you basically construct it from trees, i.e. something else. In this sense one can "make" atoms.
Quote
A Universal law (by our understanding) would be that something can not come from nothing, correct?
Not really, but in most cases that's true. It's concievable that the universe was made with a total energy of zero so in that sense it was something from nothing. Negative energy of gravitational potential energy is canceled from the postive energy of mass and kinetic energy.
 

Offline Vern

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Can atoms be made?
« Reply #19 on: 19/10/2009 23:38:44 »
Quote
In this steady state universe you propose, where is the anti matter that would also be created going?

The creation process need not create complete atoms at once. There are intermediate standing wave patterns of trapped radiation that must interact to make the atom. At these intermediate stages, the dominate matter will prevail. Since there are three entities required to complete the proton, and the entities are formed in pairs, the intermediate anti-matter entity is annihilated with its matter partner. The whole atom need not be annihilated. It seems to me that the kind of matter that dominates by chance has a better chance of replicating than its counterpart.

Edit: Keep in mind that the intermediate entities are very unstable and can only exist for milliseconds. They don't need a partner to convert back to radiation. In fact, this scenario would have most of the created matter converting back to radiation with only a very small portion actually forming atoms.

« Last Edit: 19/10/2009 23:44:13 by Vern »
 

Offline Mad Mark

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Can atoms be made?
« Reply #20 on: 20/10/2009 00:03:33 »
On another note for your steady state universe if galaxies are continually being created why are all quasi galaxies only observed in the distant past.
 

Offline Dimi

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Can atoms be made?
« Reply #21 on: 20/10/2009 09:33:52 »
Quote from: Dimi
Can atoms be made, or are we limited by the whole of the physical universe by what we have (so if we destroy an atom to release energy, it will never be replaced)
What do you mean by "made"? IF you "make" a desk you basically construct it from trees, i.e. something else. In this sense one can "make" atoms.
Quote
A Universal law (by our understanding) would be that something can not come from nothing, correct?
Not really, but in most cases that's true. It's concievable that the universe was made with a total energy of zero so in that sense it was something from nothing. Negative energy of gravitational potential energy is canceled from the postive energy of mass and kinetic energy.

I still don't see how that is creating atoms. All your doing is altering a state. That isn't creating something from nothing.
 

Offline Pmb

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Can atoms be made?
« Reply #22 on: 20/10/2009 13:45:00 »
Quote from: Dimi
I still don't see how that is creating atoms. All your doing is altering a state. That isn't creating something from nothing.
That's why I asked you What do you mean by "made"? You didn't ask if they could be made from nothing, hence my question. The word make quite literally means "to put together from components". It doesn't mean to create from nothing. Heavy elements are said to have been "made" in particle accelerators by bombarding lighter elements with a beam of protons.

If you're asking if they can be made from nothing, in the lab, then the answer is no. If you're asking if all the atoms in the universe were made from nothing then the answer is "maybe". Nobody really knows.
 

Offline Vern

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Can atoms be made?
« Reply #23 on: 20/10/2009 14:09:48 »
Quote from: Mad Mark
On another note for your steady state universe if galaxies are continually being created why are all quasi galaxies only observed in the distant past.
I'm not sure what a quasi galaxy is. As far as I know every observation of very distant objects show them to be just like the objects we see up close. Just recently, a gamma ray burst from the farthest object ever observed showed that the parent entity contained heavy elements that could not be produced in first generation stars.

I have kept a mind set for that. I have seen references to far away galaxies as "young" galaxies, but there has never been any evidence that they are young.
 

Offline Pmb

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Can atoms be made?
« Reply #24 on: 20/10/2009 14:12:50 »
Quote from: Vern
I'm not sure what a quasi galaxy is. As far as I know every observation of very distant objects show them to be just like the objects we see up close.
I believe that he's referring to the fact that the further out in space we look the younger objects appear. E.g. near objects appear just as objects near us appear. But if you observer things out near the furthest we can see then we are esentially looking back in time and things like galaxies appear much younger and less evolved.


 Just recently, a gamma ray burst from the farthest object ever observed showed that the parent entity contained heavy elements that could not be produced in first generation stars.

I have kept a mind set for that. I have seen references to far away galaxies as "young" galaxies, but there has never been any evidence that they are young.
[/quote]
 

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Can atoms be made?
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