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Author Topic: Why don't an atom's electrons fall into the nucleus and stick to the protons?  (Read 170380 times)

Offline chiralSPO

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What's the strongest positive force field? A proton carries 1 positive charge, you put a test charge neat it to measure it. The force f=1/r^2, isn't the strongest positive force field is near the surface of a proton?

Strong force holds protons and neutrons together, therefore it should be negative charged in nature. Agree?

Also, inside nucleus, gravity plays a big deal due to f=m1m2/r^2, compare the radius of the atom and the nucleus.

There is no charge associated with the strong force. Just as with gravity. Charge is irrelevant to these forces. Just as mass is irrelevant to the electrostatic force.

The gravitational field of a hydrogen or helium nucleus is pretty close to nothing as far as their electrons are concerned. However, for much more massive atoms, (where the electrons are also much closer to the nucleus due to electrostatic attraction), like gold or mercury there is actually a significant effect. But it's not the gravitational attraction (electrons are really light), it is from the time dilation near the nucleus.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: jccc
What's the strongest positive force field?
[/quoplte A proton carries 1 positive charge, you put a test charge neat it to measure it. The force f=1/r^2, isn't the strongest positive force field is near the surface of a proton?
jccc - In my last post asked you several questions. I asked you those questions because I need to know the answer in order to answer your question. In this case I need to know what force you're talking about. When someone uses the term "positive force" they're often referring to a force which is directed away from the source of the force. In this context it means a repulsive force. The strongest repulsive force is the electric force. The closer to the particle the stronger the force.

With those assumptions we can say that the force is the same near any positive charge because all positive charges are the same. The only exception is the quark but they don't appear by themselves outside the nucleon.

However if the particle is an alpha particle (which has two protons in it) then the force is stronger near the surface of the alpha particle. And the force is the same near any positively charged particle. So using the proton is misleading because any positive charge will have the same force pushing it away. And it keeps going up with the number of protons near the nucleus of the atom, so long as electrons aren't screening them.

Quote from: jccc
Strong force holds protons and neutrons together, therefore it should be negative charged in nature. Agree?
No.
In theory the strong force also holds neutrons to neutrons. Just because it holds two charged particles together it doesn't mean that it's doing so by canceling out the positive charge.

Quote from: jccc
Also, inside nucleus, gravity plays a big deal due to f=m1m2/r^2, compare the radius of the atom and the nucleus.
The gravitational force inside the nucleus is so small that it's ignored in nuclear physics.
 

Offline JP

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Don't put out books and numbers, if you cannot explain just say it, say we don't know yet is better answer.

On the contrary, its been explained numerous times.  If you can't understand the explanations, just say it and we'll try to explain it in a different way.
 

Offline jccc

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Don't put out books and numbers, if you cannot explain just say it, say we don't know yet is better answer.

On the contrary, its been explained numerous times.  If you can't understand the explanations, just say it and we'll try to explain it in a different way.

Yes, please explain it in a way that is logically sound. This is so important! THANKS!
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: jccc
You can say anything you like, but the logic just don't sound. Why is electrons in gold atoms very close to nucleus   not contact with it? Isn't strong attraction force at work?
In order to understand that you need to study quantum mechanics. It's not possible to answer any and all questions about nature to someone who doesn't understand physics. Likewise it's not possible to explain what happens in an atom to someone who has never studied quantum mechanics. The best that can be said to someone who's never studied it is to say that in the microscopic world electrons don't behave like ordinary things in our macroscopic world. I.e. they can't be described as having a particular shape of being at a particular position. What we can also say is that electrons around an atom are in a way somewhat like standing waves and those standing waves can only be so close to the nucleus.

Quote from: jccc
7 pages, no one has an answer to the Op question that is sounding.
Actually it has been explained to the satisfaction of the person who asked the question. Just because you didn't understand it it doesn't mean the description was wrong. And as I said, you need a certain background to be able to grasp it. People don't just walk into a quantum mechanics class, ask a question and can expect to walk out of the class understanding the answer.

Quote from: jccc
What's the mechanism?
We talked about the fact that science is not about providing mechanisms. Did you not listen. Read carefully  http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html
Quote
10 points for arguing that while a current well-established theory predicts phenomena correctly, it doesn't explain "why" they occur, or fails to provide a "mechanism".
:)
« Last Edit: 21/07/2014 17:20:05 by PmbPhy »
 

Offline jccc

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Electrons move in straight line in cloud chamber. Bent by EM field. I don't see standing wave, cloud or shell. I see a charged particle.

Why in atoms electron becomes wave? Is the wave negative charged? Is it attracted by nucleus? How the wave moves?

In H2O, electrons are bounded in fixed position, how is it a wave?
 

Offline lightarrow

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Don't put out books and numbers, if you cannot explain just say it, say we don't know yet is better answer.

On the contrary, its been explained numerous times.  If you can't understand the explanations, just say it and we'll try to explain it in a different way.

Yes, please explain it in a way that is logically sound. This is so important! THANKS!
NO! It's not important at all! Physics *don't have* to be "logically sound", and not even "logical". It have to be consistent with its postulates/theorems/definitions/rules and with the experimental results.

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lightarrow
 

Offline jccc

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Electrons move in straight line in cloud chamber. Bent by EM field. I don't see standing wave, cloud or shell. I see a charged particle.

Why in atoms electron becomes wave? Is the wave negative charged? Is it attracted by nucleus? How the wave moves?

In H2O, electrons are bounded in fixed position, how is it a wave?
No comment? Or as confused as me?
 

Offline lightarrow

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NO! It's not important at all! Physics *don't have* to be "logically sound", and not even "logical". It have to be consistent with its postulates/theorems/definitions/rules and with the experimental results.
Please explain the theorems and experiment results about how a hydrogen atom is formed.
You received a lot of answers but you don't believe us...
You only have to study quantum mechanics and when you have seriously done it you come here again and you tell us what's wrong with this theory.
Regards.

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lightarrow
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: jccc
Electrons move in straight line in cloud chamber.
Actually that's not true. What you're seeing is an approximation of a straight line. At the subatomic level it can't even be said to be a trajectory in the literal sense.

Quote from: jccc
I don't see standing wave, cloud or shell.
Please recall what I wrote, i.e.

Quote from: jccc
The best that can be said to someone who's never studied it is to say that in the microscopic world electrons don't behave like ordinary things in our macroscopic world.
Note: When I use the term microscopic level, I'm being a bit sloppy. To be precise it really applies to the subatomic level.

Notice that I was talking about the subatomic world while you keep thinking about the macroscopic world. Did you ever really believe that if you looked hard or with a strong enough microscope that you'd be able to see electrons orbiting a nucleus? It's down at atomic sizes that this wave size for electrons is apparent. Thompson's double slit experiment used photons to demonstrate the wave nature of photons. So you really can't compare the two when it comes to wavelength.

Quote from: jccc
I see a charged particle.
That too is incorrect. Have you ever studied how a cloud chamber works? If not then please see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_chamber#Structure_and_operation

Quote from: jccc
The result is a supersaturated environment. The alcohol vapour condenses around ion trails left behind by the travelling ionizing particles. The result is cloud formation, seen in the cloud chamber by the presence of droplets falling down to the condenser. As particles pass through they leave ionization trails and because the alcohol vapour is supersaturated it condenses onto these trails. Since the tracks are emitted radially out from the source, their point of origin can easily be determined
When you look at "trajectories" in a cloud chamber and you think you see a moving charge, what you're really seeing is a trail of vapour. And this is at the macroscopic level, not the microscopic level.

You can't see things at the subatomic level with your eyes or even with the most powerful microscope that can theoretically be built.

Quote from: jccc
Why in atoms electron becomes wave? Is the wave negative charged? Is it attracted by nucleus? How the wave moves?
Electrons never become waves. They have wave "properties" at some times and particle properties at other times.

Quote from: jccc
In H2O, electrons are bounded in fixed position, how is it a wave?
Again, you didn't read close enough to my last post. I.e.

Quote from: jccc
What we can also say is that electrons around an atom are in a way somewhat like standing waves and those standing waves can only be so close to the nucleus.
Why do you think I added that part that says  in a way somewhat like? It's because it's too difficult to explain the exact nature to someone who hasn't studied the subject. If I told you about eigenfunctions and spherical harmonics would you be able to understand what I was talking about? The functions which describe the probability density of the electron a solution to Schrodinger's equation.

To see what the solutions look like for hydrogen go to Google and search using the phrase "diagrams of the solutions to Schrodinger equation for hydrogen". You'll see that the first result comes up with pictures that look like clouds (which is why they're called "electron clouds"). Take a look at it and study it.
 

Offline jccc

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It is raining, I see everything without a leg/support falling down, a little gravity but nothing can escape from it.

What's the leg support 10^34 g attraction force between nucleus and electrons?

QM laws? Seriously my friends.
 

Offline chiralSPO

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your "logic" fails on the subatomic scale. Many of your assumptions are based on macroscopic phenomena, and lead to false and paradoxical statements.

On this subatomic scale, it is entirely reasonable, and actually necessary, for something to "be in multiple places at once"
On this subatomic scale, it is entirely impossible for something to stop moving
On this subatomic scale, it is entirely possible for something to go from one place to another without traveling through any points in between.

On a macroscopic scale, these claims sound ridiculous, and anything behaving in this way would certainly seem magical. However this is how really small things are. It has been demonstrated experimentally, we have mathematical models for it, and these models make good predictions that can be tested against experiment (many of them).

Please stop telling the world that it is not behaving the way you think is logical (it won't listen)
 

Offline JP

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I've split a few posts off this thread.  jccc, please keep your posts on topic and don't promote new theories here.  If you want to propose alternative explanations to standard quantum mechanics, the place to do so is in the New Theories forum.

Thanks,
The Mods
 

Offline Ethos_

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On a macroscopic scale, these claims sound ridiculous, and anything behaving in this way would certainly seem magical. However this is how really small things are. It has been demonstrated experimentally, we have mathematical models for it, and these models make good predictions that can be tested against experiment (many of them).



What experiments and predictions? Please point out, appreciate.

Believe me, if I can understand QM, my sleep will be much sweeter.
To understand QM, I'm sure if you were to take the advice which several members here have offered, you might not only understand QM, you would sleep much sweeter as well as the rest of us.
 

Offline jccc

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My great great great grandpa was a scientist. He left a note book, he theorised/ predicted the universe is expending, light speed is constant in all sources and directions, spiral galaxies create magnetic field at center disk.

If he was published his theories/predictions in mainstream science field 100 years ago, would you never forget his name?
 

Offline JSS

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The reason that an electron cannot meet the proton is simply one of "impedance matching". A small mass charge cannot enter the domain of a large mass charge, even of the opposite charge. Note that as long as the masses of the particles are nearly equal, they do collide, because they are more impedance matched. The truly strongest force in nature is impedance mismatching (most notably between a large and small mass with opposite charges.

I could go into extreme detail of exactly why and how that works and what mass has to do with impedance matching, but it is a very, very long story.

And interestingly to space travel buffs, if you have a very large, heavy space ship with a very strong positive charge on it, then fire a small missile with an equally strong negative charge on it at the ship, the missile will blow up before reaching the ship. The impedance mismatch is a harder surface than the ship.

That is how you get the "impenetrable force shield" depicted in sci-fi films. The trick is getting the strong charge on the missile.  [8D]
« Last Edit: 24/07/2014 23:25:44 by JSS »
 

Offline JSS

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So, electrons are for real orbiting the nucleus?

Charged particle accelerating in EM field will release energy, how long can electron keep orbiting before crash into nucleus?
The electron is constantly maintaining its size by absorbing energy (in the form of infinitesimal EMR pulses). All particles are merely a concentrated clump of infinitesimal EMR noise, constantly replenishing. Thus an electron can orbit (merely shifting the center of its noise), release energy, and also absorb an equal amount of energy.

What we call "empty space" is actually filled with infinitesimal EMR pulses (much as Krauss theorized, although having nothing to do with quantum foam). Without such subtle affectance, no particle could ever exist.
 

Offline Ethos_

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What we call "empty space" is actually filled with infinitesimal EMR pulses (much as Krauss theorized, although having nothing to do with quantum foam). Without such subtle affectance, no particle could ever exist.
Precisely................There is no "space/time" empty of field.
 

Online evan_au

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Quote
So, electrons are for real orbiting the nucleus?

Not really - it's an idea dating from the early days of studying the internals of the atom, where they imagined the atom like a tiny solar system.

This is still sometimes used as an analogy to introduce students to the structure of the atom, but the wave nature of planets is too small to be noticeable, so it's fairly limited as an analogy.

Quote
Charged particle accelerating in EM field will release energy, how long can electron keep orbiting before crash into nucleus?
About 16 picoseconds.

Clearly, the atoms in our bodies survive longer than this, so there is a paradox here.

This exact problem was identified by Niels Bohr, who proposed a solution in 1913 (101 years ago, now).

To catch up, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr_model#Origin

Later developments in quantum theory from 1925 onwards made these ideas more precise (but often more shrouded in mathematics).
 

Offline jeffreyH

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I don't mean to be contrary. :) I just need to explore every possibility that might offer experimental evidence that my vision of a photon is not reality. As far as I can determine the double slit experiment supports the vision. If I did not have the photon defined so that it must produce the observed results by cause and effect, I might fantasize some magical wave-particle duality.

The anatomy of a photon: A photon consists of two half cycles of electric and magnetic fields that drive points of maxima through space. The fields exist in a spatial area around the points. The changing amplitude of the fields drive the points and determine their path through space. Photon interaction happens at the points of maxima. So any observation will see the points. Edit: It is not my definition; it is Maxwell's definition.

What perplexes me is that folks don't seem to understand that. Is it that I just can't put the right words together?

Here's a schematic of the vision. It looks just like those that were in the text books when I studied electronics and nuclear instrumentation back in the 50's.



I know exactly what you mean.  [8D] I am putting together a model the details of which are in new theories. The Pauli Exclusion Principle has a physical mechanism that can be described along with the difference in energies of electrons. I like your diagram BTW. Although you haven't described the path of the waveform correctly. Yes there are waves!
« Last Edit: 25/07/2014 18:15:19 by jeffreyH »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: jccc
Bingo!

This kind of comment is just cool as it can be.
What? That's what I've been telling you all this time!
 

Offline jccc

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Quote from: jccc
Bingo!

This kind of comment is just cool as it can be.
What? That's what I've been telling you all this time!

Feel like his wording has more momentum. Yours more temperature.
 

Offline jccc

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In fusion reaction, two atoms impact so hard, even two nucleus crashed into one, how come electron escaped from the crash?

Let's say somehow QM is correct, atoms are stable due to some mystery laws. When we putting pressure on matter, to a point, atoms/orbital/shell/wave will crash. But this never happened.

Wonder, confuse, another sleepless night, have a nice weekend!
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: jccc
In fusion reaction, two atoms impact so hard, even two nucleus crashed into one, how come electron escaped from the crash?
The atoms become ionized during fusion and loose electrons due to such an energetic impact knocking it out, the atom would later capture another electron and have a full set of electrons again.

Quote from: jccc
Let's say somehow QM is correct, atoms are stable due to some mystery laws.
Those "mystery laws" are called the postulates of quantum mechanics.

Quote from: jccc
When we putting pressure on matter, to a point, atoms/orbital/shell/wave will crash. But this never happened.
Since when? Atoms due combine to form molecules you know.
« Last Edit: 27/07/2014 05:39:19 by PmbPhy »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: jccc
Pete, I don't get the part two positive nucleus able to impact into one but opposite charges not able to impact into one.
I don't know what you mean by "impact." Please explain.

The proton and electron are opposite charges and they form a hydrogen atom. The electron and positron are opposite charges and form positronium.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positronium

Two positive charges also have the strong force acting on them in order to bind them together. Without the strong force nuclei with more the one proton couldn't exist.

Quote from: jccc
You talk about electron capture, capture by attraction force right? Why is nucleus only capture electrons half way and put them at radius?
What do you mean by "put them at radius"? Electron capture is the following process

cc4eadd7c2cf0fbaa6cddb455a2ab5e0.gif

where n is a neutron and 66698fb025b35665217b25df186b0e93.gif is an electron neutrino.

Quote from: jccc
When we put matter into liquid nitrogen, atom's orbital/shell/wave should crash like a glass doom under high pressure, that never happened as I know.
Now we're getting into quantum chemistry. A field I haven't thought about since I was a sophomore in college so many decades ago. Also you're using terms which I don't know what they mean such as crash like a glass doom.
 

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