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Author Topic: Why don't an atom's electrons fall into the nucleus and stick to the protons?  (Read 171557 times)

Offline jccc

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Pete,

What is quantum level? How electrons change level? Is it a voltage thing?
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Electrons in an atom can be described by quantum numbers (n, l, ml and ms) No two electrons in the same atom can have the same numbers. You can think of it as a kind of address. One can also calculate the energy of the electron based on its address (quantum numbers). see more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_number
 

Offline jeffreyH

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jccc Think of the electrons like cog wheels. When two are interlinked then as one rotates clockwise the other will have to rotate anti-clockwise. This is like spin up and spin down in a very simplified analogy. Pairs of electrons have to be in this configuration due to the Pauli exclusion principle.
 

Offline jccc

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Pete,

This thread is the most asked question in every science forum. I searched them all and QM is the only answer I found. I also puzzled all my life about gravity and magnetism.

I believe you already read my hypothesis about all 3 in the past few pages. I am seriously eager to learn your thoughts about them.

I said you are my teacher and always will be, please take my word.

Dear Pete, find any mistakes?
« Last Edit: 12/02/2015 07:39:47 by jccc »
 

Offline chiralSPO

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jccc, I know we all sound like broken records by now, but I will repeat yet again:

Your approach is completely bass ackwards--with few exceptions, scientific progress is made by an iterative process of making observations, constructing a model based on those observations and current scientific understanding, checking the model against future observations, and finally discarding or modifying the model, repeating the cycle until there is excellent agreement between observation and theory.

Contrary to common belief, science does not tell us how the universe works, it lets us imagine systems that imitate (closely or exactly) what we observe of the universe. We will never find "truth" only good predictive models. We often use models that we know are wrong because they still make good predictions and are simple to use. As long as we know the limitations of the theories, when assumptions can be made, and how the real world is likely to deviate from the simplistic models, using "wrong" models is very practical.

You have proposed a model, but instead of checking it against observations, you are trying to "reason" that it is useful based on how much sense it makes to you. This model may be useful for making some types of predictions, but that doesn't mean that it is a correct worldview, and it doesn't imply anything about how the world works.

You claim to have a theory, but it sounds more like a "Just So" story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_So_Stories) than scientific thought.


If you really care to know more about these three questions you have, take Pete up on his offers and actually read some of the material he provides links to. You have to suspend disbelief at the begining and just try to understand the reasoning behind quantum theories. Once you learn enough about it, you will realize the ways in which it is self consistent and how it can predict/describe what goes on on molecular, atomic and subatomic scales. You will also learn where the model fails. Remember all scientific models are wrong! Some just happen to be useful anyway.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Pete,

What is quantum level? How electrons change level? Is it a voltage thing?
I thought I made it clear to you that I will not teach you what you can find it a text. There's a huge amount of information to be digested that you're not willing to work to do.
 

Offline jccc

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Pete,

What is quantum level? How electrons change level? Is it a voltage thing?
I thought I made it clear to you that I will not teach you what you can find it a text. There's a huge amount of information to be digested that you're not willing to work to do.

Did you find any mistake in my pest theories?

Have you missed any chance to show off your science knowledge?
 

Offline Ethos_

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Still don't love me?

I am going to share your pm soon.
I think you'll find many here consider such action inappropriate.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Still don't love me?

I am going to share your pm soon.
If you share any PM I've ever sent you then I promise never to PM you again.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: jccc
If you share any PM I've ever sent you then I promise never to PM you again.
I'm not gay from cripes sake so I don't love you.  I can barely stand you. :)

Please stop with this childish nonsense and act your age. I have no time for this childish behavior.
 

Offline jccc

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Well, let's get back to biz.

How come you find no bones in my ideas about gravity, magnetism and atom?

What's your take?
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: jccc
How come you find no bones in my ideas about gravity, magnetism and atom?
Because I've been ignoring you. I've been waiting until the day when you decide to get serious and stop being lazy about all of this and are ready to do the work necessary to understand physics.

What are these ideas you have?
 

Offline jccc

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let me share my wow moment.

yesterday, if i can trade my life to understand any of the 3, i will.

today i found them all, at least i believe.

how do i feel?

i want to transplant into a butterfly.




 

Offline Ethos_

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let me share my wow moment.

yesterday, if i can trade my life to understand any of the 3, i will.

today i found them all, at least i believe.

how do i feel?

i want to transplant into a butterfly.
Continue with your present behavior jccc and all you can rightfully expect from everyone here is for us to start ignoring you.

As for myself, the time has come for me to do just that. Unless you start making some sense, and show real interest in learning and or sharing, you can expect no further replies from yours truly......................Bye, bye
 

Offline PmbPhy

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let me share my wow moment.

yesterday, if i can trade my life to understand any of the 3, i will.

today i found them all, at least i believe.

how do i feel?

i want to transplant into a butterfly.
Continue with your present behavior jccc and all you can rightfully expect from everyone here is for us to start ignoring you.

As for myself, the time has come for me to do just that. Unless you start making some sense, and show real interest in learning and or sharing, you can expect no further replies from yours truly......................Bye, bye
I'm with my dear friend Ethos_ . In fact I declare a boycott on jccc.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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I found your greatest science achievement is artificial skin.
What in the world are you talking about now? It's dumb stuff like this that makes us want to ignore you.

I'm going to take a last shot and helping you understand orbitals and that's IT!!

See http://www.chem1.com/acad/webtut/atomic/WhyTheElectron.html
 

Offline jccc

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Atom, how is it build? If you only have two charged particles, 1 proton and 1 electron.

According to physics  law, they attract each other, the closer the stronger. f=q1q2/r^2. they become a little dot with positive force field on one side and negative the other. That's not the atom we see.

You have two choices, add more charge/matter or change your law. You forgot you have more matter, so you changed your law, one for logic, one for wish.

You forgot only have 1 law, the truth.

Do you really need to change your law? If you remembered the other matter that is the charged space itself.

See if you can debunk the above, Pete.

 

Offline jccc

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And this:

A particle, should be either at rest or at speed v without extra force apply on it.

If it is moving, it moves along straight line. If it hits something, it may pass through/halfway, reflect or deflect. It will lose momentum/speed anyways.

Does any light or EM wave ever slowdown?

If light is particle, how a particle hits mirror and reflect back? What bounces it back? The electron? The nucleus? The empty space within silver atoms?
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: jccc
See if you can debunk the above, Pete.
This is another of the serious problems that you have. You're unable to grasp the fact that I just said
Quote
I'm going to take a last shot and helping you understand orbitals and that's IT!!
When someone says "that's IT!!" it means no more conversation. And yet you keep acting like I'm going to respond to the crap you post. Sheesh! This is exactly what it means to be a troll so please STOP trolling.
« Last Edit: 14/02/2015 07:26:10 by PmbPhy »
 

Offline jccc

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My theory is the space is negative charged elastic fluid. All things are within it.

Positive charged nucleus attracts the negative charged fluid to form atom. The density of the fluid is Df=1/r^3. Electrons also attracted by positive charged nucleus and stable at atom radius where the attracting force is equal to the repel force. A demo
aid=P8fZ2oSGqsg

The electrons around the atom is like bond by a spring, need force to push in or pull out from the nucleus. Now if a force is applied, the electron will vibrating and produce pressure/EM wave across the space around it. Every element has certain charge and bonding strength, therefore unique spectrum.

If Coulombs's law stands universally, we should assume that every atom or charged particle are connected by their force field across the whole space.

An atoms force field does not end at atom radius, but extend to infinity. In whole, an atom or planet maybe electrically neutral, but Every charge within has its own force field beyond distance, those forces overlapped to produce chemical bonding, magnetism and gravity. Ever wonder why is Fe=q1q2/r^2, Fg=m1m2/r^2, and mass proportional to proton numbers within it?

If proton is in fact built by U and D quarks, then maybe the proton is like one small woman sleep between two fat man. It happens in real life. At least, the 3 quarks could electrically form into a group that we called proton.

We should assume all nucleus have some degree of polarity according their unique charges carried and the structure of all quarks stick together.

An iron atom maybe is a small magnet, the positive pole of the nucleus attract dense space fluid to form a force field that its density/strength drop off at 1/r^3, that matches the observation, and fits Coulombs law.
 

Offline syhprum

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To transmogrify into a butterfly you must undergo a metamorphosis.

on a more serious note how do electrons survive floating in this negative charged eather
« Last Edit: 14/02/2015 07:58:52 by syhprum »
 

Offline jccc

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How about just the soul part?
 

Offline jccc

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To transmogrify into a butterfly you must undergo a metamorphosis.

on a more serious note how do electrons survive floating in this negative charged eather

how you survive all the enemies in the world around you? You have no where to go but within them.

image the electron carries -1, the fluid carries - 1/10^20/cm^3. something like that.

the electron surrounded by negative fluid, seeks any positive charges in sight, fly to the closest proton. getting closer, the dense negative fluid ball around the proton keeps it not too close. The attraction force is f=pxe/r^2, the repel force form the negative field strength is f=1/r^3, the 2 has to balance at atom radius.
« Last Edit: 14/02/2015 08:50:52 by jccc »
 

Offline jccc

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if this theory has merit, we may assume space is bounded by itself, therefore infinity.

Infinity space/negative charged elastic fluid, with any amount of protons and electrons able to build universe. Centered by positive nucleus and space fluid ball and electron outer made atoms.

No matter if proton number or charge equal to electron number or charge. As long opposite charges exist, groups will from. Any forces will act relatively.
« Last Edit: 14/02/2015 11:58:57 by jccc »
 

Offline jccc

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Who says the universe has to have same amount positive and negative charges? If there are only 100 protons and 100000 electrons, would matter/atom able to form?

According to Coulombs law, the universe should be a little ball of matter sounded by empty space. The matter part is the two kinds of particles mixture.

But it might not look like matter we know. Without negative charged space fluid, matter will be tooo dense to support life.
 

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