The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Why don't an atom's electrons fall into the nucleus and stick to the protons?  (Read 170763 times)

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4701
  • Thanked: 153 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
maybe proton carries 900+, attracted 899- fluid to form nucleus, add 1 electron to form hydrogen.


Alas, an isolated proton has a charge of +1, by experiment.
 

Offline jccc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
alash. a hydrogen is neutral, by all means. yet you cannot say it contains no charge. you say its net charge is 0.

if proton carries the fluid with it, net charge is +1, will test show +1 charge?


 

Offline Ethos_

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1277
  • Thanked: 14 times
    • View Profile
alash. a hydrogen is neutral, by all means. yet you cannot say it contains no charge. you say its net charge is 0.

if proton carries the fluid with it, net charge is +1, will test show +1 charge?
Experiment shows that a proton consists of two up quarks with a charge of +2/3 each. And one down quark with a charge of -1/3. Taking 2 times +2/3 equals +4/3 and adding the -1/3 charges leaves us with +3/3 simplified to +1 charge. I really don't know where you are getting some of your figures jccc, they sure aren't coming form a physics book. Where did you ever come up with the proton having 900+ charges?
« Last Edit: 17/03/2015 23:53:57 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline jccc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
experiment shows photon knocks out electron, is photon a real thing?

i assume proton carries 900+, because i believe real mass is the ratio of force act on charge.

think about, when charge doubled, its force doubled. push 1 charge particle to accelerate at a, need force f, push 3 charges need 3 f to get same a.

test shows hydrogen weights 1800 electron weight, that's why i believe proton carries 900+, plus 899- and 1 electron to become neutral atom.
 

Offline chiralSPO

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1872
  • Thanked: 143 times
    • View Profile
I think a hydrogen atom has a mass about 1837 times that of an electron.

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that the mass and charge scale together. Protons are hadrons and electrons are leptons, so there is no reason to think that their mass to charge ratio should be equal...

And didn't you claim that this negative fluid had no mass before? Now it has the same mass to charge ratio as electrons?
 

Offline jccc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
i believe without charge, there is no force, therefore no mass.

why don't you use the same attitude to question standard atom models?

why don't you answer my questions on the photon thread? 
 

Offline chiralSPO

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1872
  • Thanked: 143 times
    • View Profile
I have spent years learning about and questioning the standard atomic theories. Most of my questions on the subject have been answered to my satisfaction or acknowledged as current limitations of our understanding.

Your theory is much newer to me and inconsistent with much of what I have learned, and sometimes inconsistent with itself.

Mostly I am asking questions to make you think hard about your theory and how it fits (or doesn't) with our current understanding of the world--hopefully my questions help you refine and communicate your ideas.
 

Offline jccc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
certainly all your questions helped me to think better and deeper, never can be forgotten.

did you asked yourself why electron and proton not stick together? why no discharge? why matter is not compressible? how electron waving around proton? what is energy level? how is n p s shell carry electrons? what's the mechanism?

is book gives you the correct answers? you are satisfied 100% or 20%?   
 

Offline PmbPhy

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2760
  • Thanked: 38 times
    • View Profile
Quote from: jccc
certainly all your questions helped me to think better and deeper, never can be forgotten.
And yet you show no signs of that because you ask the same exact questions.

Quote from: jccc
did you asked yourself why electron and proton not stick together?
Most of us here know why. You're alone in this except for a few people with no understanding of quantum mechanics.

Quote from: jccc
why matter is not compressible?
False claim since matter is compressible. You've been told this countless times now and like other questions you still act like nobody's explained it to you. Again you're attempting to irritate members of this forum with that childish game of yours.
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4701
  • Thanked: 153 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
Pete, have you not been warned about p***ing into the wind? jccc has his own beliefs about the structure of the hydrogen atom and no amount of observation or commonsense will change his mind, possibly because we are all capitalist lickspittles, commie atheists, or evil alien lizardpeople dedicated to obscuring the Truth that has been Revealed to jccc alone.
 

Offline jccc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
a more logically sounding theory of atomic structure is discussed in the last 6 pages, 20k new viewers.

i kind disappointed to see some of the comments.

question is, am i the only one?
 

Offline chiralSPO

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1872
  • Thanked: 143 times
    • View Profile
certainly all your questions helped me to think better and deeper, never can be forgotten.
:-)

did you asked yourself why electron and proton not stick together? why no discharge? why matter is not compressible? how electron waving around proton? what is energy level? how is n p s shell carry electrons? what's the mechanism?
Are you not listening? We have said multiple times that an electron stuck to proton is a hydrogen atom!

How could an electron discharge if the smallest charge carrier is an electron?

Matter is compressible! It takes a lot of force, but densities of crystals increase at increased pressure. With crazy amounts of force (neutron star) the electrons can be forced into the nucleus, forming a neutrons.

An electron behaves in a wavelike manner and it is around the proton--this has been shown experimentally in many different ways.

Energy levels can be thought of as the different harmonics of the electron wave in the atom (or molecule).

n is the way we denote energy level. It is one of the principle quantum numbers we use to describe electrons in an atom (like an address for each electron) the others are l (azimuthal quantum number, relates to magnitude of angular momentum), ml (magnetic quantum number, relates to direction of angular momentum) and ms (spin). These are hard concepts to grasp, but essentially, there are only so many ways an electron wave can be stable around a nucleus, and these four numbers are used to describe the different stable solutions.

For n = 1, there are no solutions with angular momentum (l = 0 and ml = 0)
For n = 2, l can be 0 or 1, and when l = 1 ml can be –1, 0 or 1
overall for any n, l can have integer values of 0, 1, 2, .... all the way up to n–1
for any l, ml can have any integer value between –l and l

any orbital with l = 0 is called an s orbital; any orbital with l = 1 is called a p orbital (and remember when l = 1 ml can be –1, 0 or 1) so there are three types of orthogonal p orbitals
any orbital with l = 2 is called a d orbital (there are 5 types of orthogonal d orbitals) etc. etc. etc. this is all just our naming system, the actual equation that I'm dancing around is called the Schrödinger equation, which is used to calculate the possible wavefunctions of electrons in an atom (or molecule).

The mechanism is that that's the way the universe works. We are just describing it.

is book gives you the correct answers? you are satisfied 100% or 20%?

I am about 90% satisfied with book answers. The remaining 10% represents the combination of my own lack of understanding and what scientists everywhere don't yet have good explanations for.
 

Offline chiralSPO

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1872
  • Thanked: 143 times
    • View Profile
a more logically sounding theory of atomic structure is discussed in the last 6 pages, 20k new viewers.

i kind disappointed to see some of the comments.

question is, am i the only one?

Your theory is NOT more logical, and don't think that the number of views this thread gets is any confirmation of your theory. It is probably the result of the title being a commonly held question, coming up in google searches, and forum members interested in hearing/shooting down the next crazy thing you throw up into the thread.
 

Offline jccc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
a more logically sounding theory of atomic structure is discussed in the last 6 pages, 20k new viewers.

i kind disappointed to see some of the comments.

question is, am i the only one?

Your theory is NOT more logical, and don't think that the number of views this thread gets is any confirmation of your theory. It is probably the result of the title being a commonly held question, coming up in google searches, and forum members interested in hearing/shooting down the next crazy thing you throw up into the thread.

which part is not logical? did i answered every question you asked for?

please point, thank you.
 

Offline jccc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
We have said multiple times that an electron stuck to proton is a hydrogen atom!

an atom's radius is way bigger than a proton, which part of the electron is stuck to a proton? how they stuck? if they stuck why there is atom radius?

Matter is compressible! It takes a lot of force.

1/10^10 is compreessible? isn't atomis mostly empty space between proton and electron?

How could an electron discharge if the smallest charge carrier is an electron?

electron always discharge into positive charge, what else particle is more dischargeable?

Energy levels can be thought of as the different harmonics of the electron wave in the atom.

who though so? what wave? how a particle waves? what's the mechanism?

The mechanism is that that's the way the universe works. We are just describing it.

you see n, s, p shells? see electrons there? count them? how?
 

Offline jccc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
think about it, a building, an earth quake can damage it, a bomb can destroy it. if atoms are as science said, electrons are waving around the nucleus, all perfectly balanced, why is compressibility is 10^-10? why is during fission reaction, not even damage any part of it?

can we build anything similar? not in imagination?
 

Offline chiralSPO

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1872
  • Thanked: 143 times
    • View Profile
We have said multiple times that an electron stuck to proton is a hydrogen atom!

an atom's radius is way bigger than a proton, which part of the electron is stuck to a proton? how they stuck? if they stuck why there is atom radius?
The atom's radius is set by the electron, not the proton. They are stuck by electrostatic attraction.

Matter is compressible! It takes a lot of force.

1/10^10 is compreessible? isn't atomis mostly empty space between proton and electron?
I don't know where you're getting that number (and no units, so it's not very meaningful...), but since it's not zero, I would say it probably means that matter is compressible. There isn't really empty space in the atom. The electron(s) is (are) there.

How could an electron discharge if the smallest charge carrier is an electron?

electron always discharge into positive charge, what else particle is more dischargeable?
Not sure what you mean here. The electron is already "at" the proton, so it can't move closer.

Energy levels can be thought of as the different harmonics of the electron wave in the atom.

who though so? what wave? how a particle waves? what's the mechanism?

Louis de Broglie formalized the concept of wave-particle duality. The electron wave (or electron probability density wave, if you prefer)

The mechanism is that that's the way the universe works. We are just describing it.

you see n, s, p shells? see electrons there? count them? how?

I can't see s, p, d shells. But I can measure them, and I can model them.
 

Offline jccc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
seriously, your above statement is no better than your crashing bird 1.
 

Offline chiralSPO

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1872
  • Thanked: 143 times
    • View Profile
At this point, you're on your own. The answers are all in this thread. If you are actually a truth seeker, you will read more about quantum mechanics. I recommend you look at the history of it, rather than the mathematics of it. You will see how people made their discoveries, how they defended their theories against criticism, and how inventors were able to take advantage of our new-found understanding of atomic and molecular systems.

If you would rather make up your own reality, and you don't care how representative it is of the universe, have fun.
 

Offline jccc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
you mean you cannot point out what part of my theory is NOT logical?
 

Offline Ethos_

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1277
  • Thanked: 14 times
    • View Profile
you mean you cannot point out what part of my theory is NOT logical?
How about your post #329? Makes absolutely no sense!
 

Offline jccc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
maybe proton carries 900+, attracted 899- fluid to form nucleus, add 1 electron to form hydrogen.

the rest fluid maybe the source of dm/de?

atomic structure has to be 100% correct, otherwise whole science is doubtful.

any thoughts?

this 1?
 

Offline Ethos_

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1277
  • Thanked: 14 times
    • View Profile
maybe proton carries 900+, attracted 899- fluid to form nucleus, add 1 electron to form hydrogen.

the rest fluid maybe the source of dm/de?

atomic structure has to be 100% correct, otherwise whole science is doubtful.

any thoughts?

this 1?
Yep...................
 

Offline jccc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
please see 353, thanks!
« Last Edit: 20/03/2015 07:24:11 by jccc »
 

corrupt

  • Guest
None
« Reply #374 on: 20/03/2015 05:26:36 »
How can a neutron (which is comprised of two down-quarks and an up-quark) turn into an electron (which is itself a fundamental particle)?
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

None
« Reply #374 on: 20/03/2015 05:26:36 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums