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Author Topic: Illusion that the universe is expanding?  (Read 9535 times)

Offline Vern

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Illusion that the universe is expanding?
« Reply #25 on: 08/11/2009 21:11:17 »
Yes; that is correct; but how is that concept different than the lengthening of the wavelength that we've been calling "Tired Light"? My own suspicion is that something is going on with the light as you suggest. But I don't think anyone has the mechanism pinned down yet.
« Last Edit: 08/11/2009 21:13:32 by Vern »
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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« Reply #26 on: 10/11/2009 22:13:24 »
It's not any different. I just wonder why the possibility wouldn't be interesting enough for someone to build a counter with the accuracy to test the idea. Maybe no one wants to test it because it would be devastating to cosmology and physics?
 

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« Reply #27 on: 11/11/2009 00:23:42 »
Maybe no one wants to test it because it would be devastating to cosmology and physics?
You may have a point there Ron. Those positioned at the top of the Theoretical ladder may not want their status compromized.
 

Offline PhysBang

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« Reply #28 on: 11/11/2009 01:38:36 »
It's not any different. I just wonder why the possibility wouldn't be interesting enough for someone to build a counter with the accuracy to test the idea. Maybe no one wants to test it because it would be devastating to cosmology and physics?
This kind of thing is tested all the time in cosmology. All the time. The specifics of the relationship of redshift to distance are the main subject matter for cosmology and there simply is no chance for a tired light theory to fit the data without some kind of arbitrary parameter assigned to the theory with no basis in tired light. This relationship changes over really large distances in a way that there is no explanation for in tired light theories, but there is an obvious explanation for it in theories based on expansion.

The fact that the redshift-distance relationship is also tied to time dilation is a real death knell to any theory that seeks to explain the redshift-distance relationship using tired light. It is unfortunate that Lyndon Ashmore is out there distributing such gross distortions of the results of astronomical observations on this very topic.
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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« Reply #29 on: 11/11/2009 03:49:21 »
A 10^-36 meters/meter change is tested all the time? And it is tested how?
 

Offline PhysBang

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« Reply #30 on: 11/11/2009 15:17:19 »
A 10^-36 meters/meter change is tested all the time? And it is tested how?
Is such a change significant enough to effect the wavelengths of the light that we observe?

Changes significant enough to effect measured wavelength are checked because the relationship between observed wavelength and the distance to an observed object or event is the foundation of much of our astronomical observations.
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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« Reply #31 on: 11/11/2009 16:39:56 »
Such a change would only be significant on the order of five hundred thousand light years but it would account for much of the red shift that we see.
« Last Edit: 11/11/2009 16:41:27 by Ron Hughes »
 

Offline PhysBang

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« Reply #32 on: 11/11/2009 17:49:21 »
Such a change would only be significant on the order of five hundred thousand light years but it would account for much of the red shift that we see.
But would it account for time dilation? And for the change in the relationship between redshift and sitance over large distances? And then another change in the relationship that happens even further out? scientists are actually asking these sorts of questions and publishing on it.
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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« Reply #33 on: 12/11/2009 03:44:33 »
Out of all the questions one can ask about the universe the why of time dilation may be the most important. In my opinion it is the mechanism of gravity. See the last post here, http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=20490.msg282907;topicseen#msg282907 . I think time dilation is somehow related to the radiation emitted by matter.
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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« Reply #34 on: 12/11/2009 15:35:10 »
I have what I consider to be proof of tired light. Does the wavelength of light propagating into a gravity well get shorter? Yes, does the wavelength of light propagating out of a gravity well get longer? Yes, can the Universe be considered a gravity well? Yes.
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #35 on: 12/11/2009 16:06:37 »
Also, I suspect that ambient gravity affects light.
 

Offline PhysBang

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« Reply #36 on: 12/11/2009 16:21:06 »
Also, I suspect that ambient gravity affects light.
But then you would have to explan what "ambient gravity" is and why it is different from the standard gravity in every other theory. The standard cosmological model is pretty much a theory of the ambient gravity of the universe. There is a question of what happens to the light we observe as it passes through regions that are less dense or more dense than average, and this is addressed in a number of papers that consider observations over great distances.
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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« Reply #37 on: 12/11/2009 16:33:17 »
Ambient gravity would be the gravity of the entire Universe and it is no different from all other gravity.
« Last Edit: 12/11/2009 16:40:52 by Ron Hughes »
 

Offline Vern

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Illusion that the universe is expanding?
« Reply #38 on: 13/11/2009 01:48:30 »
Yes; ambient gravity is the total amount of raw gravity present in a local area. It need not be attractive in any direction. It might be balanced by equal masses in all directions so that there is no general force in any direction. In such a field, a photon must experience a red shift just as in a gravitational field with a directional preference.

This ambient gravity is not different than the gravity in any theory. Most theories simply do not take it into account. And this is not a theory, it is a simple observation of fact that should be taken into account in any theory.
« Last Edit: 13/11/2009 02:58:36 by Vern »
 

Offline PhysBang

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Illusion that the universe is expanding?
« Reply #39 on: 13/11/2009 05:05:11 »
Yes; ambient gravity is the total amount of raw gravity present in a local area. It need not be attractive in any direction. It might be balanced by equal masses in all directions so that there is no general force in any direction. In such a field, a photon must experience a red shift just as in a gravitational field with a directional preference.
Why?
Quote
This ambient gravity is not different than the gravity in any theory. Most theories simply do not take it into account. And this is not a theory, it is a simple observation of fact that should be taken into account in any theory.
Why do you say that theories do not take this into account? Are you familiar with the Friedmann equation? Wouldn't you say that this introduces a gravitational effect throughout the universe?
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #40 on: 13/11/2009 11:26:43 »
Why what?

The Friedmann equation already assumes that space-time is variable. It is useful in that context. We were questioning the assumption. How do we know that space-time is really variable. Observations that seem to show that it is can be explained by assuming it is the material things that vary.
« Last Edit: 13/11/2009 17:33:25 by Vern »
 

Offline PhysBang

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« Reply #41 on: 14/11/2009 00:14:50 »
Why what?
Why would a photon in the field you describe experience redshift?
Quote
The Friedmann equation already assumes that space-time is variable. It is useful in that context. We were questioning the assumption. How do we know that space-time is really variable. Observations that seem to show that it is can be explained by assuming it is the material things that vary.
Sure, you can assume that everything in the universe changes in such a way as to perfectly mimic a metric spacetime theory and everything in the universe, despite not being coordinated by a changing metric on spacetime, is nonetheless totally coordinated over all observable space in order to pull off this. And, for totally unrelated reasons, the background radiation just happens to produce measurements that match those we get from a metrical spacetime theory, even though there is no connection between those measurements and other measurements.
 

Offline Vern

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Illusion that the universe is expanding?
« Reply #42 on: 14/11/2009 13:58:03 »
Quote
Why would a photon in the field you describe experience redshift?
Time experience is slower in gravity field. Light should experience a red shift. I guess I suspect that because something is needed to cause the time experience of matter to be slower.

I do not know how mainstream theory treats ambient gravity? I suspect that no one has really looked into it deeply. I have two unanswered questions. I'm searching for the answers.

Questions:
(1) Is there even such a thing as ambient gravity? For example, do opposing gravity fields simply cancel where the fields overlap, or is there a non-directional ambient gravity that still affects clocks and stuff in the field. I suspect that there is ambient gravity.

(2) Is time dilation experienced in a static gravity field? I think mainstream theory is that this is true. I suspect that experiment has already shown that this is true with the GPS satellites. I suspect that where there is time dilation there is also a gradual accumulative red shift. I suspect the arithmetic of GR can show this. But I have not seen it demonstrated.


It seems I remember that the amplitude of the CMBR radiation was first predicted to be on the order of 50 K and only became 3.5 K after it was measured. I also remember that Sir Arthur Eddington and a group of his collaborators predicted that the temperature of space should be about 4 K due to the warming of space debris by starlight.

From UCLA
« Last Edit: 14/11/2009 15:04:10 by Vern »
 

Offline PhysBang

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Illusion that the universe is expanding?
« Reply #43 on: 14/11/2009 18:24:46 »
It seems I remember that the amplitude of the CMBR radiation was first predicted to be on the order of 50 K and only became 3.5 K after it was measured. I also remember that Sir Arthur Eddington and a group of his collaborators predicted that the temperature of space should be about 4 K due to the warming of space debris by starlight.

From UCLA
You should take the time to read the page that picture comes from. It would clear up some of your misconceptions.
« Last Edit: 14/11/2009 18:26:20 by PhysBang »
 

Offline Vern

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Illusion that the universe is expanding?
« Reply #44 on: 14/11/2009 23:03:38 »
I did read the page. It was helpful.
 

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