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Author Topic: What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?  (Read 6219 times)

Offline cjohnson

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Christopher Johnson  asked the Naked Scientists:
   
I newbielink:http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/ [nonactive] and have been listening for about a year. I was listening to one of your old podcasts on space, and I have a question. 

It is easy to think of natural phenomenon in cyclical terms.  If the big bang occured 15 billion years ago, and the expansion is accelerating, then this is not a cyclical phenomenon.  So, what is theorized to have existed prior to the big bang, and what exists outside the current expansion of the universe.  Basically what was before and what is outside our known universe.
 
Thanks,
Chris Johnson
West Virginia, US

What do you think?


 

Offline JP

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Offline Don_1

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #2 on: 15/11/2009 11:32:02 »
Christopher Johnson  asked the Naked Scientists:
   
..... If the big bang occurred 15 billion years ago, and the expansion is accelerating, then this is not a cyclical phenomenon..... 

Why not? Are you suggesting that a 1000 trillion year cycle is not possible? Why should it not be that the rate of acceleration can continue to increase until the year 50 billion? Or even 50 trillion? If the big bang did indeed happen and if it happened at one point of singularity, the force of this explosion would be so far beyond our comprehension, we cannot, even in our wildest dreams, imagine the consequences of such an event and how long its effect may continue.
 

Offline LeeE

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #3 on: 15/11/2009 13:33:52 »
Christopher Johnson  asked the Naked Scientists:
   
..... If the big bang occurred 15 billion years ago, and the expansion is accelerating, then this is not a cyclical phenomenon..... 

Why not? Are you suggesting that a 1000 trillion year cycle is not possible? Why should it not be that the rate of acceleration can continue to increase until the year 50 billion? Or even 50 trillion? If the big bang did indeed happen and if it happened at one point of singularity, the force of this explosion would be so far beyond our comprehension, we cannot, even in our wildest dreams, imagine the consequences of such an event and how long its effect may continue.

The problem with a cyclical universe, at this point in time, is that it would require yet another factor to come into play.  We're already struggling to understand the apparent acceleration of the expansion of the universe and coming up with exotic and unverifiable factors to explain it, so once we've done that, we'd then have to find yet another new factor for which there is currently no evidence.

I've also got to argue that we can't imagine or comprehend such events; theoretical physicists do it every day  ;)
 

Offline cjohnson

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #4 on: 16/11/2009 14:54:28 »
Thanks for all your comments.  The link to the other discussion helped a lot.  I have to admit, it didn't occur to me that the cycle could be that long, and that it could still be cyclical.
 

Offline syhprum

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #5 on: 16/11/2009 21:53:36 »
I often think that we should consider that alien civilisations have a different conception of time to us, S.E.T.I analyses data in 1Hz bandwidth perhaps they should look to milli or micro Hz.
I am often reminded of the words of the hymn 'A thousand ages in your sight is like a morning gone'   
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #6 on: 17/11/2009 00:04:00 »
It seems to me perfectly obvious that the whole universe MUST be substantially similar through all space and time however the tiny bit that we can see and experience may grow and change with time.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #7 on: 17/11/2009 10:48:23 »
It's quite clear that at the rate it is exanding at will result in a big rip.
 

Offline peppercorn

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #8 on: 18/11/2009 10:40:18 »
It's quite clear that at the rate it is exanding at will result in a big rip.
Because?  Please explain.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #9 on: 18/11/2009 12:35:57 »
Well, physical transmissions (that is particle interactions of quantum fields travel at c, a far as we know). Eventually, the distance will become far too-stretched for these particle interactions from star system to another, so solutions in the Generalized Theory of Relativity would predict an instability within the physical vacuum. Since now the universe is dragging matter faster than light, it seems as though deceleration is a fabrication of the theory, and will[eventuall] become so expanded, the entire universe will quantum leap into a new configuratio (i.e. the big rip theory).

Hope that helps.
 

Offline peppercorn

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #10 on: 18/11/2009 13:30:05 »
Thanks! Does this predict that every particle and boson will be torn apart internally?
I wonder what this predicts for string theories, etc?
 

Offline geo driver

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #11 on: 18/11/2009 13:48:08 »
it just is.  asking what came b4 the big bang is like asking where were you b4 you were born. 

as far as i can fathom the big bang was what made all the laws governing space and time, therefore b4 that there were a different set of rules its like trying to see the back of your own head... without a mirror
« Last Edit: 18/11/2009 13:49:55 by geo driver »
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #12 on: 18/11/2009 14:27:15 »
it just is.  asking what came b4 the big bang is like asking where were you b4 you were born. 

as far as i can fathom the big bang was what made all the laws governing space and time, therefore b4 that there were a different set of rules its like trying to see the back of your own head... without a mirror


The answer ''just is'' is a lazy, inomplete analysis of the whole scenario
 

Offline ...lets split up...

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #13 on: 18/11/2009 14:36:11 »
I hate to sound like a crazy person, but i feel if there is one universe then what came before is inconcievable to us (insert much explaining here).

Personally i believe there are two universes, one universe and one anti-universe, that work cyclically and would look like two light cones spreading out in opposite directions connected to the same origin. But that's just my opinion, as i'm no scientist.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #14 on: 18/11/2009 14:47:06 »
I hate to sound like a crazy person, but i feel if there is one universe then what came before is inconcievable to us (insert much explaining here).

Personally i believe there are two universes, one universe and one anti-universe, that work cyclically and would look like two light cones spreading out in opposite directions connected to the same origin. But that's just my opinion, as i'm no scientist.

Two universes alone cause an oxymoron due to the wave function: ref

Fred Alan Wlf, Parallel Universes; the search for other worlds
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #15 on: 18/11/2009 14:55:12 »
Thanks! Does this predict that every particle and boson will be torn apart internally?
I wonder what this predicts for string theories, etc?

in theory, it only takes two galaxies too far distanced, call it (\delta M) and (\delta m) where delta is basically the total gravitational energy for there to become a rip in all material objects, inexorably stressing the vaccuum to a point where it's entirely shredded, like a sheet of paper that cannot be ressembed because the paper fibres have new frequencies.
 

Offline peppercorn

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #16 on: 18/11/2009 15:47:53 »
in theory, it only takes two galaxies too far distanced, call it (\delta M) and (\delta m) where delta is basically the total gravitational energy for there to become a rip in all material objects, inexorably stressing the vaccuum to a point where it's entirely shredded, like a sheet of paper that cannot be ressembed because the paper fibres have new frequencies.

Hang on, I'm pretty sure the theory you referred earlier - 'The Big Rip' is the idea that very fabric of space is expanding at an ever increasing rate due to the quantum vacuum effect.
I don't think it's got anything to do with gravity.  By this theory, a single (non-virtual) particle in an otherwise empty universe (with expansive effects like our own) would still be ripped to pieces eventually.
« Last Edit: 18/11/2009 15:49:41 by peppercorn »
 

Offline geo driver

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #17 on: 18/11/2009 16:45:05 »
true enough Dr scientist, lazy true but trying to get my head around the laws governing our universe is hard enough, finding a new set that has not existed for over 15 billion years melts my head
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #18 on: 19/11/2009 08:27:54 »
true enough Dr scientist, lazy true but trying to get my head around the laws governing our universe is hard enough, finding a new set that has not existed for over 15 billion years melts my head


Oh, i bet you to it years ago lol
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #19 on: 19/11/2009 08:28:58 »
in theory, it only takes two galaxies too far distanced, call it (\delta M) and (\delta m) where delta is basically the total gravitational energy for there to become a rip in all material objects, inexorably stressing the vaccuum to a point where it's entirely shredded, like a sheet of paper that cannot be ressembed because the paper fibres have new frequencies.

Hang on, I'm pretty sure the theory you referred earlier - 'The Big Rip' is the idea that very fabric of space is expanding at an ever increasing rate due to the quantum vacuum effect.
I don't think it's got anything to do with gravity.  By this theory, a single (non-virtual) particle in an otherwise empty universe (with expansive effects like our own) would still be ripped to pieces eventually.

Could you rephrase this, i'm not quite understanding it... thanks.
 

Offline peppercorn

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #20 on: 19/11/2009 12:38:34 »
in theory, it only takes two galaxies too far distanced, call it (\delta M) and (\delta m) where delta is basically the total gravitational energy for there to become a rip in all material objects, inexorably stressing the vaccuum to a point where it's entirely shredded, like a sheet of paper that cannot be ressembed because the paper fibres have new frequencies.

Hang on, I'm pretty sure the theory you referred earlier - 'The Big Rip' is the idea that very fabric of space is expanding at an ever increasing rate due to the quantum vacuum effect.
I don't think it's got anything to do with gravity.  By this theory, a single (non-virtual) particle in an otherwise empty universe (with expansive effects like our own) would still be ripped to pieces eventually.
Could you rephrase this, i'm not quite understanding it... thanks.

Which bit are you struggling with?
Basically the Big Rip theory has nothing to do with gravity.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #21 on: 19/11/2009 13:12:09 »
in theory, it only takes two galaxies too far distanced, call it (\delta M) and (\delta m) where delta is basically the total gravitational energy for there to become a rip in all material objects, inexorably stressing the vaccuum to a point where it's entirely shredded, like a sheet of paper that cannot be ressembed because the paper fibres have new frequencies.

Hang on, I'm pretty sure the theory you referred earlier - 'The Big Rip' is the idea that very fabric of space is expanding at an ever increasing rate due to the quantum vacuum effect.
I don't think it's got anything to do with gravity.  By this theory, a single (non-virtual) particle in an otherwise empty universe (with expansive effects like our own) would still be ripped to pieces eventually.
Could you rephrase this, i'm not quite understanding it... thanks.

Which bit are you struggling with?
Basically the Big Rip theory has nothing to do with gravity.


Not at all. All forces are theoretically unfied - using this known logic, the failure of a gravitational force must inexorably indicate the same conditions for any galaxies far beyond communication at the speed of light, since all four forces have mediators which travel at the speed of light.

In other words, basing this purely on gravity is a fabrication. All forces require the same velocity components when concerning quantum fields. This mathematical expression is a crticial condition given as w or equal to 1.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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What is proposed to have existed before the big bang?
« Reply #22 on: 19/11/2009 13:13:15 »

 

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