The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?  (Read 14977 times)

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« on: 15/11/2009 10:10:33 »
In the paper "GRAVITATION AND ELECTROMAGNETISM - Introduction to the THEORY OF INFORMATONS" ( published on www.wbabin.net/astro/acke2.pdf [nofollow] ) is exposed how the concept "information" can contribute to a better understanding of the physics of the macroscopic world: interactions between (whether or not charged) objects, electromagnetic radiation and waves, light.  This is the physics studied in textbooks for a calculus-based course for science and engineering students.

In the paper, the term INFORMATION is introduced in physics by narrowing its everyday meaning to a physical concept.  It is given a specific sense by defining it mathematically.

The "theory of informatons" starts from the idea that a physical object manifests itself in space by emitting INFORMATONS.  Informatons are dot-shaped mass- and energyless entities that rush away at the speed of light carrying information about the position, the velocity and the electrical charge of the emitter.  The rules for the emittion of informatons by a point mass at rest, and their attributes, are defined by the postulate of the emission of informatons.

The consequences of the postulate for het gravitational interaction are developed in paragraphs I to IV, and those for the electromagnetic interaction in paragraph V.  The physical entity FIELD and the physical quantities that characterise a field (FIELD STRENGHT, INDUCTION) acquier a new meaning.  The laws to which these quantities are subjected (MAXWELL'S LAWS) and the rules that manage the mutual forces (NEWTON, COULOMB, LORENTZ) are deduced.  One shows that there is a great analogy between a gravitational and an electromagnetic field, what implies that the gravitational field has a component that is analogous to the magnetic field.

In paragraph VI the "theory of informatons" is applied in the study of electromagnetic waves and radiation.  The idea is introduced that a PHOTON is an informaton transporting an energy package.   This leads to the view that the deflection of light passing through a narrow split can be understood as the visible effect of the transitions of energy packages between informatons that cross one anothers paths.  Finally the implications of the gravity-electromagnetism analogy are investigated for the existence of gravitational waves and gravitons.

The "theory of informatons" is - just like all other theories - a construct of the reason, a mathematically supported logical "language game" devised to understand in a simple and consistent manner the phenomena on which it focusses.

« Last Edit: 26/04/2014 13:14:15 by ernst39 »

LeeE

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3382
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #1 on: 15/11/2009 13:36:47 »
Oh no!  Another posting scattered with randomly capitalised words.

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #2 on: 15/11/2009 16:15:03 »
randomly???

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1451
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #3 on: 15/11/2009 16:30:41 »
Haha

There's no need to yell

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #4 on: 15/11/2009 16:46:32 »
yell???

Vern

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2072
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #5 on: 15/11/2009 17:27:15 »
How would I imagine a informaton? Do you have a mental concept of it?

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #6 on: 15/11/2009 18:50:57 »
I imagine an informaton as a point (a dimensionless dot) rushing through space, that is defined by  its attributes: velocity and spin (g-spin, β-spin, e-spin, b-spin).

Macroscopically, the informatons emitted by an object constitute its gravitational and (if it is electrically charged) its electromagnetic field.  The density of the flow of informatons in a point of a field manifests itself as the field strenght, and the density of the cloud of informatons as the induction.  Maxwell's laws, that hold as well for gravity as for electromagnetism, can mathematically be deduced from the behaviour of the informatons.

Informatons are mass- and energy less: they go through everything and they (their attributes) are invariably.  Masses (charges) respond on disturbances in the symmetry of the cloud of informatons which they are surrounded by accelerating, in order to become blind for the disturbances.  This idea allows to explain the gravitational and the electromagnetic interactions.

Informatons can carry (transport) energy packets.  Informatons with e-spin transporting an energy packet manifest themselves as photons.  When a photon crosses the path of an informaton with e-spin, it is possible that the energy packet make a transfer from the first to the second informaton:  the visible effect is a change of the direction in witch the photon moves.

Vern

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2072
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #7 on: 15/11/2009 21:09:09 »
It seems to me that a photon could do all that you want the informaton to do. Why is it that you need an entity that can never be seen by experiment?

Keep in mind that photon's pretty much described the universe before Quantum theory. Lorentz was almost there. He only needed to drop the concept of particles and adhere to Maxwell's suspicion that the final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field.

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #8 on: 16/11/2009 11:29:56 »
(First a question.  I mean that there can only be emission of photons by a body when it is electrically charged and accelerates. How is it possible to explain Newton's gravitation law with the intervention of photons?)

Maxwell's laws are the mathematical expression of experimentally observed electromagnetic phenomena: Coulomb, Ampere, Faraday, ... .  They define and describe the E.M. field perfectly, but - in my opinion - they don't explain it.

With the theory of informatons, I start from the idea that the E.M. and the gravitational field are constituted by a common constituent.  I define that constituent and deduce all the phenomena and laws from that definition.

The usefulness of this approach is in the first place pedagogically:  the quantities "field = information flow density" and "induction = information density" are defined without artificial considerations; and the phenomena and laws of gravity and electromagnetism are deduced in a similar manner.

Vern

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2072
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #9 on: 16/11/2009 12:57:57 »
Quote
With the theory of informatons, I start from the idea that the E.M. and the gravitational field are constituted by a common constituent.  I define that constituent and deduce all the phenomena and laws from that definition.
I like this idea, but don't see why you need to create a new entity. You can get to the same place by simply modifying the the way we think of photons.

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #10 on: 16/11/2009 19:15:06 »
Modifying the way we think about photons is just what I do:  I suppose that a photon is an energy package transported by a carrier (§VI,5).  I call that carrier an "informaton".

The rate at which an object emits informatons depends only on his rest mass and not on his state of motion or on his electrical charge, factors that are essential for the emission of energy packages.  A (whether or not charged) object at rest or describing a uniform motion doesn't emit energy packages at all.  That implies that, in the case of interactions between masses and between charges at rest or uniformly moving, there are no photons available.  So, we need something else, namely informatons, to explain the mutual forces (Newton, Coulomb, Ampere).

In § VI,4 and next, I study the electromagnetic energy radiated by an oscillating electrical point charge.  The attributes of the emitted informatons manifest themselves macroscopic as an E.M. wave.  Some of that informatons transport an energy-package and manifest themselves as photons.  The square of the r.m.s. value of the electric field in a point is a measure for the intensity of the effective flow of photons in the direct vicinity of that point.  We can interpret this by saying that light is a flow of descrete energy packages guided by an E.M. wave.

« Last Edit: 16/11/2009 19:17:20 by ernst39 »

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #11 on: 20/03/2010 11:12:36 »
In the paper, referred to in message #1, it is shown that it is possible to explain the gravitational and the electromagnetic interactions by introducing "information" as a new physical concept.  It is assumed that information about the position, the velocity and the electrical charge of an object is carried by mass-, energy- and dimensionless  entities that are emitted by that body and rush away with the speed of light.  Because they transport nothing else than information, these entities are called "informatons".  They are defined by their attributes.  The gravitational and the electromagnetic field of a body are identified with the macroscopic manifestation of the cloud of informatons emitted by that body.

In the mentioned paper, it is assumed that the speed of the objects is negligible compared to the speed of light.  In a complementary article (www.wbabin.net/astro/acke4.pdf [nofollow]), the theory is expanded to relativic situations.

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #12 on: 15/07/2010 15:16:47 »
The theory of gravito-electromagnetism (G.E.M.)assumes a perfect isomorphism between gravitation and electromagnetism.  Within the framework of general relativity is shown that the gravitational analogs to Maxwell's equations can be derived from the Einstein field equation.

In the paper "THEORETICAL FOUNDATION OF GRAVITO-ELECTROMAGNETISM" (published on http://www.wbabin.net/weuro/acke5.pdf [nofollow] and on http://www.vixra.org/pdf/1006.0045v1.pdf [nofollow] ), we propose an alternative foundation of G.E.M.  We start from the idea that a material object manifests itself in space by emitting mass and energy less dot shaped entities that rush away with the speed of light, carrying information about the position and the velocity of the emitter.  These entities are called "informatons".

We show how informatons constitute the gravitational field of an object and mediate in the interactions between masses.  In §4 we derive the G.E.M. equations from the characteristics of the informatons.

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #13 on: 04/11/2010 18:42:41 »

CPT ArkAngel

• Hero Member
• Posts: 573
• Thanked: 3 times
Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #14 on: 05/11/2010 02:46:23 »
Electromagnetic waves are photons... And i don't think we will never find gravitons because it is time that produces gravity...

Thank you for this very nice article!!!
« Last Edit: 05/11/2010 05:28:44 by CPT ArkAngel »

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #15 on: 27/12/2010 18:52:06 »
In the article "Theoretical Foundation of Electromagnetism" ( http://www.prespacetime.com/index.php/pst/article/viewFile/102/130 [nofollow] ) published in PRESPACETIME JOURNAL - vol 1- issue 10 - pp. 1455-1476, it is shown that "the theory of informatons" is able to explain the phenomena and the laws of electromagnetism in the same way as it explains gravito-electromagnetism.

This justifies the idea that gravitation and electromagnetism are related; and that an accelerated point mass emits a gravitational wave in the same way as an accelerated point charge emits an electromagnetic wave.  It follows that a gravitational wave should transport energy in the form of discrete packages that are the analogues of photons.  In the article, an energy package emitted by a point mass is called a "graviton": it is an informaton carrying a quantum of gravitational energy.

QuantumClue

• Hero Member
• Posts: 613
Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #16 on: 11/01/2011 21:06:27 »
Ever seen GEM equations?

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #17 on: 12/01/2011 18:08:19 »
"Ever seen GEM equations?"

Yes, see:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitomagnetism [nofollow]

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #18 on: 11/05/2011 18:21:02 »
The article "Physical Foundation of the Theory of Fields" (http://www.prespacetime.com/index.php/pst/article/viewFile/174/182 [nofollow]), published in PSTJ - vol 2 - issue 4 (http://www.prespacetime.com [nofollow]) focuses on the backgrounds and the essential points of the theory of informatons.

The hypothesis that the substance of gravitational and electromagnetic fields is "information" carried by "informatons", leads to the following insights about the nature of those fields.

- in any inertial reference frame, gravitational and electromagnetic phenomena propagate with the speed of light
- gravitational and electromagnetic fields are continuously regenerating
- there is noise on the quantities Eg/E and Bg/B hat macroscopically characterize a field
- the field Eg/E created and maintained in a point P by a uniform moving mass/charge always points to the actual position of that mass/charge, and not to the position where it is "seen" from P
- the dynamics of the informatons translates in the laws of G.E.M./Maxwell
- there is a perfect isomorphism between G.E.M. and E.M.
- a photon/graviton is an informaton that transports a quantum of energy

« Last Edit: 12/05/2011 09:43:50 by ernst39 »

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #19 on: 14/11/2011 09:45:34 »
The statements formulated in the previous post are elaborated in the article "The Nature of the gravitational Field" (http://www.prespacetime.com/index.php/pst/article/viewFile/286/276 [nofollow]) published in PRESPACETIME JOURNAL - Vol 2 - Issue 11 (http://www.prespacetime.com [nofollow]).

Bored chemist

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 8591
• Thanked: 41 times
Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #20 on: 14/11/2011 19:11:24 »
Prespacetime Journal (ISSN: 2153-8301) is published by QuantumDream, Inc. We are committed to truth and excellence. Please also visit Journal of Consciousness Exploration & Research and DNA Decipher Journal published by QuantumDream, Inc., and Scientific GOD Journal published by Scientific GOD, Inc.

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #21 on: 17/03/2012 09:47:35 »
The deduction of gravito-electromagnetism (G.E.M) in 1893 by Oliver Heaviside in the article  "A gravitational and electromagnetic Analogy" (serg.fedosin.ru/Heavisid.htm [nofollow]) is the elaboration of the idea that gravitational and electromagnetic fields must be governed by analogue laws:  the laws of G.E.M. are formulated by analogy with Maxwell's laws.

In the article "Physical Foundation of Gravito-Electromagnetism - The Theory of Informatons"  (www.intellectualarchive.com/getfile.php?file=TPHZOulTfp4&orig_file=PHYSICAL FOUNDATION OF G.E.M..pdf [nofollow]) published on Intellectual Archive (www.intellectualarchive.com [nofollow] - branch: Natural Science; area: Physics; author: Antoine Acke), the idea is elaborated that this analogy points to the fact that both kind of fields are the macroscopic manifestation of the same microscopic phenomenon:  the "informaton" is introduced as the elementary constituent of both gravitational and electromagnetic fields.  We can say that the relation of the "theory of informatons" to the "theory of fields" is similar to that of the "kinetic theory of gases" to the "ideal-gas law":  the informatons play the role of the molecules.

The new article contains a complete exposition - including the mathematical derivations - of the theory of informatons with regard to the gravitational interactions.  The result is a continuouly regenerating field with a granular structure, that is isomorphic with the E.M. field and that macroscopically can be described as a continuum that is governed by the laws of G.E.M.   These laws can - from the point of view of G.R.T. - be considered as an approximation of the usual gravity field equations (www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitomagnetism [nofollow]).
« Last Edit: 17/03/2012 09:57:43 by ernst39 »

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #22 on: 01/09/2012 14:01:21 »
In the article "The gravitational Field of an accelerating Mass - Gravitational Waves", published in PRESPACETIME JOURNAL - Vol 3 -No 10,
( http://prespacetime.com/index.php/pst/article/view/403/415 [nofollow] ) is demonstrated how gravitational waves can be explained by the theory of informatons.

It is shown that:
-  an oscillating point mass is the source of a "gravito-magnetic" wave that is analoguous to the EM wave generated by an
oscillating point charge
-  an oscillating point mass emits energy in the form of granular entities - called "gravitons":  these are - in analogy
with "photons" - identified as energy packages carried by informatons.

William McCormick

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 153
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #23 on: 02/09/2012 22:31:50 »
How would I imagine a informaton? Do you have a mental concept of it?

I was taught that light brought information to your eye with a particle of electricity. Traveling at a certain velocity. Blue light travels at one velocity and red light at another velocity. I was taught there is just one subatomic particle, the particle of electricity. It travels at different velocities to generate different effects. Heat, Light, UV, X-rays, gravity, you name it is the same particle at a different velocity.

Look at how red light is knocked out of light traveling through water, in a couple hundred feet from the surface. Then yellow, then green. All supposedly the same particle yet knocked out at different depths. The reason the red light gets knocked out first is because it is traveling more slowly, then the blue light. The red light is actually accelerated back to blue light speed, before it disappears. Blue light is eventually accelerated back up to darkness in the abyss, before it disappears.

I was taught that the hydrogen atom was made up of particles of electricity, trapped in a spherical shape, that is much smaller then the average scientist thinks it is. The infinite number of particles of electricity in the sphere, the single atom of hydrogen, are kept there by the huge surface area exposed to the outside, and such a small volume inside. That is what allowes matter to be so solid in appearance. All matter from every angle at every second is being bombarded by very high velocity ambient radiation. That is what gives matter its appearance of density. Even though matter is 90 percent space, even tungsten. Gas is even less solid.

If you put helium through an arc, it expands exponentially, to spheres that are sized, so that they are visible to the naked eye. This was a propulsion system designed in the fifties and perhaps earlier in Germany. The atom is smaller then the average scientist thinks it is, so the propulsion we can obtain from expanding tiny amounts of helium is just amazing.

The effects we perceive from matter are brought to us by particles of electricity. We do not actually see the matter itself, rather we take information from particles that leave the matter, and let our eyes and brain, decipher that into what we believe the matter is.

There is no way to see a particle of electricity, because it takes a countless number of particles of electricity to bring you a picture of the particle you claim to see.

"Modern Science" is not modern at all, it is dark ages nonsense. The internet is about as exciting as a black and white TV was. You could not put interesting material out on TV and have the masses get it, and you really cannot put interesting material out on the internet and have the masses get it. People just do not want to know the bad news. They just want happy news.

Gravity is just an electrical force.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

ernst39

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 31
Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #24 on: 03/09/2012 09:43:34 »
Dear William Mac Cormick,

As stated in my first post, the theory of informatons is about the physics studied in textbooks for a calculus based course for science and engineering students (for example: Hans C. Ohanian - PHYSICS).  Because your views on light, hydrogen, matter and gravity are contrary to what is taught in that context, it is obvious that you cannot agree with  my ideas about gravitation and electromagnetism.

Sincerely,

Ernst39

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #24 on: 03/09/2012 09:43:34 »