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Offline graham.d

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« on: 28/11/2009 13:22:20 »
It seems to me that things were looking good in the world of physics that belonged to the likes of Galileo and Newton. They postulated laws that were part of what was believed to be revealing God's work and it turned out to be relatively easy to understand and visualise. The 20th century has somewhat changed that view and, for those that believe in a supreme being, it seems that He moves in more mysterious ways than anyone would have imagined. It was once possible to visualise the universe, the immense and the minute, as extensions of how we perceive the world in which we live, but the reality is that we have no mechanisms built into our brains that can allow us to fully and intuitively grasp these worlds. We are simply not equipped to deal with the four dimensions of space-time and the possible multiple dimensions of the quantum world. The possible visualisations are only by analogy or simplistic reductions; the only real representation is mathematical and abstract.

Of course this does not mean that the various theories cannot make predictions - the true test of a theory - but it seems very hard to get any insight of the underlying structure. A good example is the recent work by Garrett Lisi. I would urge a viewing of this YouTube video of a talk for TED:


This illustrates both the beauty of his mathematical theory and also the difficulty in relating it to the reality that most mortals perceive.

However, I like to think that it may be a matter of familiarity and that when we are taught, for example, about the mathematics of Lie Groups at an early age we may develop insights which today we find difficult.

What do you think? Will Physics become easier for people to understand in future or will it become increasingly specialised, even at a fundamental level, so that very few will have any grasp of the basic concepts?


 

ScientificBoyZClub

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #1 on: 28/11/2009 13:49:57 »
No, I don't think. String theory is the play of math to unify with 4 fundamental forces of Nature.
Let them have it.
so what ??
theory of Everything can't be everything.
we can't prove it. Physics always tries and believes in experiments.

I don't agree even if they have made the Elegant theory.

I BET Physics is missing lots of basics.

When I said basic... It's missing a lot ...

I still did not understand why they are trying to unify all forces of nature ??
Why ?
it's Ok with Electromagnetism
it's Ok with Strong and weak nuclear force.
I don't agree it for gravity.We still did not understand Gravity fully.
Finally some quantum mechanics. Nothing  is truly understood in it.
no one really know true nature of Quantum...

If you are really pro in math and genius you can unify any thing... X=Y.... X+1=Y+2-1 .. LOL.
I did not understand why Math and physics agree with each other fully.

But than, I respect what they did for understanding our Universe.

I am going to cover some GAPS in Physics that needed to complete this puzzles.

This is why I study Physics.
they are missing a lot !! LOL

GAPS are ...

There are still some unknown forces in LARGE scale fulling galaxies and stars.
there are still some stuff need to be discovered.
If any one funds me I take  string theory course too.
« Last Edit: 28/11/2009 13:52:13 by ScientificBoyZClub »
 

Offline graham.d

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #2 on: 28/11/2009 15:18:15 »
Most people know the famous equation E=mc^2. I understand the equation and what its implications are to some extent, certainly more than my wife (who has a degree in history), but I would not say I fully understand it. I think the more you know about a subject the more you realise how little you know. Knowing a bunch of equations and being able to manipulate the maths to give answers is not the same as understanding, even though the familiarity can lead to some insights.
 

ScientificBoyZClub

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #3 on: 28/11/2009 15:34:45 »
Most people know the famous equation E=mc^2. I understand the equation and what its implications are to some extent, certainly more than my wife (who has a degree in history), but I would not say I fully understand it. I think the more you know about a subject the more you realise how little you know. Knowing a bunch of equations and being able to manipulate the maths to give answers is not the same as understanding, even though the familiarity can lead to some insights.
I admit it I know little.
I know what I have learned.

I am always a student.
I am always a learner.
I may not be knowing whole string theory but I know some facts in it.
 
 

ScientificBoyZClub

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #4 on: 28/11/2009 15:52:14 »
Most people know the famous equation E=mc^2. I understand the equation and what its implications are to some extent, certainly more than my wife (who has a degree in history), but I would not say I fully understand it. I think the more you know about a subject the more you realise how little you know. Knowing a bunch of equations and being able to manipulate the maths to give answers is not the same as understanding, even though the familiarity can lead to some insights.

YOU can't say that our discoveries or math stuff can solve all...

We have Whole Universe to explore ..
Nature is NOT fool to give very easy puzzles.

nature or Creator of our Universe is not fool to give it easy way.
WE ARE STILL MISSING LOTS OF STUFF ....

how can you say it's gonna end like this...

If we have unified everything and we understood everything in Universe without EXPLORING it how boring and Rude our universe would be ??
 
 
 

ScientificBoyZClub

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #5 on: 28/11/2009 16:01:25 »
Most people know the famous equation E=mc^2. I understand the equation and what its implications are to some extent, certainly more than my wife (who has a degree in history), but I would not say I fully understand it. I think the more you know about a subject the more you realise how little you know. Knowing a bunch of equations and being able to manipulate the maths to give answers is not the same as understanding, even though the familiarity can lead to some insights.
OK !
you are telling as if I am IGNORANT and you have explored every corner of Universe???

I know the true taste of Puzzles in Nature.
Never ending Knowledge.......
never ending Desire ....

This is Our creator.

tell me who set the CONSTANTS in Nature or in this Universe ?? 

Some laws may not work in some areas in this universe.

try to understand this MAN ...

I got company ... ALL experts and scientist all.... are Ignorant !!

Everyone of us. no one really knows any thing OK..

We are trying to do something called research which can lead us to FALSE conclusions and True conclusions..

NO WAY TO PROVE STRING THEORY..
NO WAY TO PROVE IT IS WRONG...

CERN LHC is still one its way..
could not find Higgs and Gravitons escaping to higher dimensions.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #6 on: 28/11/2009 16:23:02 »
It seems to me that things were looking good in the world of physics that belonged to the likes of Galileo and Newton. They postulated laws that were part of what was believed to be revealing God's work and it turned out to be relatively easy to understand and visualise. The 20th century has somewhat changed that view and, for those that believe in a supreme being, it seems that He moves in more mysterious ways than anyone would have imagined. It was once possible to visualise the universe, the immense and the minute, as extensions of how we perceive the world in which we live, but the reality is that we have no mechanisms built into our brains that can allow us to fully and intuitively grasp these worlds. We are simply not equipped to deal with the four dimensions of space-time and the possible multiple dimensions of the quantum world. The possible visualisations are only by analogy or simplistic reductions; the only real representation is mathematical and abstract.

Of course this does not mean that the various theories cannot make predictions - the true test of a theory - but it seems very hard to get any insight of the underlying structure. A good example is the recent work by Garrett Lisi. I would urge a viewing of this YouTube video of a talk for TED:


This illustrates both the beauty of his mathematical theory and also the difficulty in relating it to the reality that most mortals perceive.

However, I like to think that it may be a matter of familiarity and that when we are taught, for example, about the mathematics of Lie Groups at an early age we may develop insights which today we find difficult.

What do you think? Will Physics become easier for people to understand in future or will it become increasingly specialised, even at a fundamental level, so that very few will have any grasp of the basic concepts?

Yes, i do believe that science is becoming more incomprehensible. As we exhaust theories which do not match reality, we are needing to explore all scenario's... and there's an infinity of them.
« Last Edit: 28/11/2009 16:29:45 by Mr. Scientist »
 

Offline Geezer

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #7 on: 28/11/2009 19:05:52 »
What do you think? Will Physics become easier for people to understand in future or will it become increasingly specialised, even at a fundamental level, so that very few will have any grasp of the basic concepts?

In the near term I think it's likely to get a lot harder. It might eventually get simpler, but I suspect that's unlikely.

Someone said "The average quantum mechanic is as philosophical as the average mechanic." To some extent I think that those who delve into Physics can't get too philosophical about it if they want to get something done. They focus on one area and try to do rigorous analysis in that area without worrying too much about the "big picture".

The only thing that seems to hold true about Physics is that if the answer to a problem appears obvious, it's probably wrong!
 

Offline Farsight

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #8 on: 28/11/2009 22:01:40 »
...It was once possible to visualise the universe, the immense and the minute, as extensions of how we perceive the world in which we live, but the reality is that we have no mechanisms built into our brains that can allow us to fully and intuitively grasp these worlds. We are simply not equipped to deal with the four dimensions of space-time and the possible multiple dimensions of the quantum world...
It isn't true, graham. We do have the mechanisms, it is possible to visualize the universe, and we can intuitively grasp the world. It's really simple, with insight galore. Physics will become much much easier for people to understand, easier than you ever thought possible. But for some, it's horribly easy, and this undermines their status, so it won't happen overnight.
 

Offline Vern

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #9 on: 28/11/2009 22:42:54 »
Quote
Some principle uniquely right and uniquely simple must, when one knows it, be also so obvious that it is clear that the universe is built, and must be built, in such and such a way and that it could not possibly be otherwise.

The true nature of the universe is really very simple. It is the theories about it that are complex. The quote is from John Wheeler. When you know that the principle that Wheeler sought is:

The final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field.

It all makes sense. We have known this for about two hundred years BTW. Einstein wrote that it originated with Maxwell; others say it originated with Newton. There has never been even one piece of evidence that would suggest that the bolded statement is not reality.

« Last Edit: 28/11/2009 22:48:01 by Vern »
 

Offline itisus

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« Reply #10 on: 09/12/2009 04:26:07 »
The true nature of the universe is really very simple. It is the theories about it that are complex. The quote is from John Wheeler. When you know that the principle that Wheeler sought is:

The final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field.

It all makes sense. We have known this for about two hundred years BTW. Einstein wrote that it originated with Maxwell; others say it originated with Newton. There has never been even one piece of evidence that would suggest that the bolded statement is not reality.
What about the weak and strong forces?
 

Offline Vern

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« Reply #11 on: 09/12/2009 04:56:42 »
The weak and strong forces are easily demonstrated to be electromagnetic. It is only prejudice that prevents us from accepting those facts as reality.

Source Code
 

Offline PhysBang

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #12 on: 09/12/2009 05:06:54 »
The weak and strong forces are easily demonstrated to be electromagnetic. It is only prejudice that prevents us from accepting those facts as reality.
Yes, it is that scientists are prejudiced towards things that can be established by evidence and that they are prejudiced against personal fantasy that prevents them from accepting that the weak and strong forces are electromagnetic.
 

Offline Farsight

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« Reply #13 on: 09/12/2009 09:24:12 »
What Vern says is no fantasy. It is backed by scientific evidence. The evidence is there in proton-antiproton annihilation. Then all the quarks and gluons have gone, and what you see is electromagnetic waves, plus electrons and positrons that can be annihilated to release more:

Antiproton-Proton Annihilation into Electron-Positron Pairs and Gamma-Ray Pairs

The result is might be mesons:

Antiproton-proton annihilation at rest into two mesons

But mesons decay. A neutral pion decays into two gamma photons:

Table of mesons

The weak interaction is an aspect of electromagnetism, which is why they're unified as the electroweak interaction. The strong force is described as the force that holds a proton together, but is omitted from the description of the electron, or the photon. And these things are electromagnetic.
 

Offline Vern

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #14 on: 09/12/2009 12:54:57 »
Quote
Yes, it is that scientists are prejudiced towards things that can be established by evidence and that they are prejudiced against personal fantasy that prevents them from accepting that the weak and strong forces are electromagnetic.

It is just the opposite. We don't have to accept anything except reality. We can't do that.


« Last Edit: 09/12/2009 12:56:44 by Vern »
 

ScientificBoyZClub

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #15 on: 09/12/2009 13:05:59 »
Yup...
I don't trust math as describing Nature fully.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #16 on: 09/12/2009 13:09:17 »
Yup...
I don't trust math as describing Nature fully.

You're right. Nature never depended on math as much as math actually does depend on our interpretion of reality :) That is the truth. :)
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #17 on: 09/12/2009 13:11:09 »
What Vern says is no fantasy. It is backed by scientific evidence. The evidence is there in proton-antiproton annihilation. Then all the quarks and gluons have gone, and what you see is electromagnetic waves, plus electrons and positrons that can be annihilated to release more:

Antiproton-Proton Annihilation into Electron-Positron Pairs and Gamma-Ray Pairs

The result is might be mesons:

Antiproton-proton annihilation at rest into two mesons

But mesons decay. A neutral pion decays into two gamma photons:

Table of mesons

The weak interaction is an aspect of electromagnetism, which is why they're unified as the electroweak interaction. The strong force is described as the force that holds a proton together, but is omitted from the description of the electron, or the photon. And these things are electromagnetic.

It's not absolute fantasy.. I agree with the photon charge in a bent geodesic - but i find it hard to agree with vern with everything he conjectures - just as much as i expect people to find many things i say - so what does that tell us??
 

ScientificBoyZClub

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #18 on: 09/12/2009 13:15:34 »
I believe that we are missing lot in this universe.
we are missing basics in physics still hiding.
HOW on earth without knowing the every corner of this universe. just predicting with math ??

this is the foolish thing I have every seen..!!

Math is fooling Physics.
Geometry is Ok but not other areas of math.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #19 on: 09/12/2009 13:19:07 »
I was told of my lecturer that in the next 100 years the laws of physics are going to change dramastically before any unified theory is even universally-accepted.:)
 

Offline PhysBang

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« Reply #20 on: 09/12/2009 14:57:41 »
What Vern says is no fantasy. It is backed by scientific evidence. The evidence is there in proton-antiproton annihilation. Then all the quarks and gluons have gone, and what you see is electromagnetic waves, plus electrons and positrons that can be annihilated to release more:
But this says nothing about the nuclear forces really being electromagnetism. It doesn't address any of the ways that we actually measure the nuclear forces. Again you go to some sources that has nothing to do with the science involved because you know nothing about the science involved. The papers you cite assumes that the nuclear forces are not electromagnetic forces.
Quote
The weak interaction is an aspect of electromagnetism, which is why they're unified as the electroweak interaction. The strong force is described as the force that holds a proton together, but is omitted from the description of the electron, or the photon. And these things are electromagnetic.
You could say that everything is electroweak. Do you know the difference between electroweak interactions and electromagnetic interactions? Do you know why they have different names?
 

Offline latebind

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #21 on: 09/12/2009 15:51:31 »
I quite like the idea that we are still discovering how physics works, its like a puzzle that has not been solved yet, and once we solve it then all the fun will be gone and it will become boring.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #22 on: 09/12/2009 15:58:47 »
Yes!
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #23 on: 09/12/2009 16:46:00 »
Vern's quote of John Wheeler is the basic truth that we need to work with, everything boils down to EMR.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
« Reply #24 on: 09/12/2009 17:03:36 »
It is a quote - but it needs a lot of mathematical-convintion.
 

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Is the world of physics now incomprehensible?
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