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Offline Webo

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White holes and the unified thoery?
« on: 01/12/2009 23:33:55 »
I am not into math or science just an ordinary person with an extreme interest in astro physic and quantum mechanics. The same reason as most which is a deeper understanding of the truth! How and why we are here whether divine intervention or just a quantum fluctuation, how and why does it all work? That said I have two questions and greatly appreciate any and all direction as to why they do not make sense and or are not valid as follows:
1.) White holes: The big question it seems to me is why is it that not everything at a very small
    scale fundamentally works they same as it does at a larger scale? That said what is scale?
    What is large and what is small would be determined by your point of view. There is I believe a
    logic to the larger scale universe, while expanding having black holes at the center of galaxies
    and galaxies lines up on fillaments from previous fluctuation at the time of the big bang, no
    problem so far. The big question then is how it stared? Now this is where I keep thinking of
    white holes. If black holes pull so much gravity and energy into a singularity that they are no
    longer held by the standard laws of physics, is it possible that at some point or points in time
    they push through or actually develop their own space time / universe there by all the material
    engulfed by the black hole explodes into a new space time? hence a new universe? Hence a new big
    bang in another universe? I understand that some believe in and maybe will prove out with the
    new collider the possibility of mini black holes and or that the current universe started from a
    black hole. The question begs to be answered as to why things at a small scale do not work under
    or apply to the same physics at a larger scale so again I come back to what is scale?
    Is it possible that our universe stared as a white hole, material coming from a black hole in a
    much larger universe? and at the same time the black holes in our universe are seeding other
    smaller universes? If we looked at it like we are standing on a virtual particle, and that the
    number of larger and maybe infinite universes would seem so large to us that what ever math /
    model we tried to apply things just would never work out as we just do not understand the scale
    - hence no unified theory?
2.) Where are we today: It seems to me that we are not looking for the truth? We are looking for an
    answer, and we have so many possible explanations that do not agree at all with each other that
    most likely none of them are correct. Is it possible we just do not have and or have not
    developed the correct math as of yet to understand? What did Newton bring to the world with his
    new form of math? We have still been using the same math since then just making it extremely
    more complex. I like the string theory as it starts to bring alot of answer to the question
    however every time the math does not work out correctly at the small scale and at the larger we
    simply start to add other componenets to the equations until it works out! If 4 dimensions do
    not work make it 10 or 11 then everything works out. At this point we have found an answer to
    the equation however we have not found the truth! The end game is the truth not theories, so who
    is looking for the truth and not solutions? I would love to follow their life work and
    achievements.

    These may seem unrelated questions however they seem related to me as again if we are using the
    wrong type of math and or do not understand scale, so that our math does not apply we will never
    find the truth only solutions to equations.

 Again please forgive me as I am not a scientist or study math so my questions may seem extremely basic and uninformed for those of you who know what your talking about! I was just please to find this site and am hoping to hear back from the knowing as to why the logic is fundamentally incorrect so I can start looking at things through a proper lens.

Thanks for your time!
Webo           

       



           


           
   
     


 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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White holes and the unified thoery?
« Reply #1 on: 01/12/2009 23:57:00 »
White holes, last time i checked, violated the second law of thermodynamics.

http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/schww.html

But then again, so has the first law...


Is physics in the state its in because we restrict ourselves to these laws... ?
 

Offline Webo

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White holes and the unified thoery?
« Reply #2 on: 02/12/2009 01:04:55 »
Thank you very much my good friend however I still do not see the logic. In other words it appears as though two different and separate worm holes formed in two different universes have to come together. My thinking is that there is initially only one black hole not two coming together and as such the second or new universe would not initially be there to collapse onto or into the worm hole / black hole as the black hole from our universe created the new universe, by the black hole? In other words the diagram shows the second white hole or worm hole coming together from the other universe to meet with the black hole / worm hole from our universe however initially my thinking is there is no other universe - it is created in and by the black hole itself? If that make any sense? As such it would seem to me to be a one way street not a two way street so to speak? While I understand what goes in dose not come out and or survive, how and why is there a second black hole or worm hole from the other side? My thinking is the black hole in our universe is making the other other universe so if it does not all ready exist how can the two black / worm holes come together? Again I do not understand the thermo dynamics so again it may make perfect sense to you and I'll never understand it!                 
Sincerely
Webo
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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White holes and the unified thoery?
« Reply #3 on: 02/12/2009 01:07:02 »
Different universes... I only believe there be one. When i looked at your post, i remembered all the speculation that white holes could not exist because of a violation... well... i was making a valuable point that the speculation is at cost of finding that the ZPF violates the first law.

That's all. If there are any specific questions, ask away.
 

Offline Webo

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White holes and the unified thoery?
« Reply #4 on: 02/12/2009 20:13:23 »
Dear Mr. Scientist
Thank you for taking the time to enlighten the unenlightened!
I am sure you specifically understand the laws of which I have no knowledge of so I will leave it to the fact that I trust your understanding. That said, as I under stand it does not most or all laws break down within the black hole and under the extreme gravity of a black hole singularity? In other words if the standard laws of therodymanic's apply then all thing being equal would confirm the status of the black & potential white hole to be accurate however if all the laws break down under the extreme gravity and singularity - why then do the standard laws of thermodynamics apply?
I am sure my questions seems exceedingly rudimentary however I am just asking as I am plagued by these questions and can not seem to get them out of my head and pointed in the right direction!
Thank You
Webo     
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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White holes and the unified thoery?
« Reply #5 on: 03/12/2009 20:08:50 »
Dear Mr. Scientist
Thank you for taking the time to enlighten the unenlightened!
I am sure you specifically understand the laws of which I have no knowledge of so I will leave it to the fact that I trust your understanding. That said, as I under stand it does not most or all laws break down within the black hole and under the extreme gravity of a black hole singularity(1)? In other words if the standard laws of therodymanic's apply then all thing being equal would confirm the status of the black & potential white hole to be accurate however if all the laws break down under the extreme gravity and singularity - why then do the standard laws of thermodynamics apply?(2)
I am sure my questions seems exceedingly rudimentary however I am just asking as I am plagued by these questions and can not seem to get them out of my head and pointed in the right direction!
Thank You
Webo     

Bolded by me:

1) Yes, but not so much in the black hole sense. It is true that beyond the horizon, the force of gravity is causing a lot of unusual phenomena such as space and time reversal, where space becomes timelike and time becomes spacelike in character. Though, i think a lot of people associate singularities as something only associated to black holes. There are however what are called ''Naked singularities'' without any boundaries.

2) Again it's not so much the presence of a black hole in question, but the singular region in spacetime which is in question, because what happens in that the laws of thermodynamics break down because invariantly there is an infinite amount of negative energy in a singular region... even space and time are expanded due to this consequence of all this ''compressed'' negative energy region. Singularities are the worst mathematical outcome ever because nothing can be ultimately said about them because of the restraints of all variables becoming infinite in value.

Hope this helps..
« Last Edit: 03/12/2009 20:10:25 by Mr. Scientist »
 

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