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Offline witsend

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« Reply #25 on: 11/12/2009 08:10:43 »
Golly Bored chemist.  I have NEVER claimed an over unity result in the paper.  NOWHERE AND NO HOW.  You are claiming something that is entirely incorrect.  I have, however, hinted that it appears to be evident in three test results where there is an apparent zero net discharge from the battery evident in both the measurement across the batteries and/or in the analysis of power delivered by the battery.  That - I believe is an over unity result.  But I did not reference the term.  You are ENTIRELY FALISIFYING THE FACTS.  This OBSESSION as you refer to it - is not mine.  But it does seem to be yours.  NOWHERE DOES THE TERM FEATURE PROMINENTLY OR OTHERWISE - IN OUR REPORT. 

You are either intellectually challenged or your cannot or will not read the respresentations in that paper or you cannot understand the paper, or you have run out of argument and rely on the thin justification of some delusions related to the delivery of energy in a closed system electric circuit.  I'm happy to answer this point as often as you raise it.  But essentially you are lying - or - to put it euphemistically - you are distorting the facts.

 
« Last Edit: 11/12/2009 08:14:18 by witsend »
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #26 on: 11/12/2009 09:08:26 »
Also - you and Vern are clearly mainstream scientists with mainstream training?  It's amusing to see typical mainstream reaction.  Vern pretends he sees nothing ananomalous in a co-efficient of performance in excess of 1.  He also makes a determined effort to ignore the results in that paper that show zero discharge from the supply.  He needs to skip past the 'mesh current' analysis that not only show signature waveforms that are anamolous but they also defy Kirchhoff's Law.  Then he makes no reference to his multiple posts on multiple threads where he dismisses the possibility of the circuit producing COP greater anything at all.  And all such comments made with that dismissive arrogant certainty that comes with a mainstream mindset indulging in mainstream bigotry.

Then we have you Bored chemist.  You read the paper - clearly have little if any idea as to what is bing presented - you pretend to know best - try to advise us as to how we should do waveform analysis and power integration analysis which clearly is not part of your training skills - then you take a stab at a comment - that best implies insufficiencies in the paper - and then you post this 'YAWN' for public consumption.

Nice.  Really nice.  An appropriate reaction from the archaic mindset.  I'm still battling to find constructive input from contributors on this thread.  Thus far I see nothing but sad attempts at assumed superiority.  Where is the genuine and appropriate surprise and interest.  Must one upturn known paradigms just for you guys to explain that you knew this all along?  How curious.  Why then did you not endorse my previous claim - while there were still no replications? 

EDIT - BenV - I apologise for this vitriolic thread.  But I'd remind you that no-one came to my rescue - and I posted on this forum in good faith that there was some real and genuine interest in new science and new theories.  If there is no real interest why this forum topic?  Or is it that the contributors - historically - were only those who used us poor victims as fodder for their egos?  Perhaps this can now change?  Perhaps there are those readers who are more constructive if less contributive?  Just wish I knew. I'm glad that Sophicentaur is not as active. 

Ah.. now i remember where I've seen this arguement. You wouldn't be by any chance DRZion?
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #27 on: 11/12/2009 13:31:56 »
 ;DHello Mr. Scientist. ;D

I keep checking out your link and see a rather strange earnest fellow - pretending to sing under water - and telling us that we're a 'shining light'?  Also see a strange lady shrouded in all kinds of billious material that wafts around the place with a life of its own.  Then the only reference to DrZion seems to be a gentleman who recommends breast augmentation for ladies - and seems to have done some startling work on that lady that floats around the place with that gentleman.  Then there are all those bubbles.  Apparently an inexhaustible supply of wind - that, from what I can see, mostly come from the mouth of the gentleman while he sings?...if that is singing?

Not entirely sure of the relevance of all this?  But delighted to view whatever you recommend.  I would prefer some good music though.  It may give this thread some interest.  LOL.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #28 on: 11/12/2009 13:36:14 »
;DHello Mr. Scientist. ;D

I keep checking out your link and see a rather strange earnest fellow - pretending to sing under water - and telling us that we're a 'shining light'?  Also see a strange lady shrouded in all kinds of billious material that wafts around the place with a life of its own.  Then the only reference to DrZion seems to be a gentleman who recommends breast augmentation for ladies - and seems to have done some startling work on that lady that floats around the place with that gentleman.  Then there are all those bubbles.  Apparently an inexhaustible supply of wind - that, from what I can see, mostly come from the mouth of the gentleman while he sings?...if that is singing?

Not entirely sure of the relevance of all this?  But delighted to view whatever you recommend.  I would prefer some good music though.  It may give this thread some interest.  LOL.

You want music...? You can have it!
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #29 on: 11/12/2009 13:38:52 »



More?
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #30 on: 11/12/2009 14:02:52 »
Hi Mr. Scientist

Love MEATLOAF and loved Total Eclipse of the Heart.  Really nice choices.  Thanks for that.  I'd love to know the relevance of DRZion? And I'd quite like to know your interest in this thread - assuming there is any?   
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #31 on: 11/12/2009 14:06:03 »
Hi Mr. Scientist

Love MEATLOAF and loved Total Eclipse of the Heart.  Really nice choices.  Thanks for that.  I'd love to know the relevance of DRZion? And I'd quite like to know your interest in this thread - assuming there is any?  

My interest is equally the same magnanimity i choose to reply in any thread.
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #32 on: 11/12/2009 14:17:26 »

My interest is equally the same magnanimity i choose to reply in any thread.

Well.  Delighted to be the recipient of some of that magnanimity.  Especially when it comes with such impecccable taste in music.  Thanks Mr. Scientist. 

BTW - I'm not DRZion - but I may be the 'zipon lady'?  LOL
« Last Edit: 11/12/2009 14:20:48 by witsend »
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #33 on: 11/12/2009 14:19:13 »
I'm more delighted. :)
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #34 on: 11/12/2009 15:43:11 »
 ;D Mr. Scientist.  No end of publications on Sribd.  I shall systematically download them all.  Very intrigued. 
 

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« Reply #35 on: 11/12/2009 16:14:20 »
If you aren't being disingeneous, then i will hopefully direct your attention greatly more towards the time theory. It's years of work, which is a configuration in itself of a grand unifiation of the mind, but not of the physical nature of the universe - but i do not hold true to an absolute solipsistic nature of the universe, as you may find through reading :)
 

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« Reply #36 on: 11/12/2009 16:25:53 »

  And why should I want to change the facts simply to make the experimental results more appealing.  Surely the evidence should stand on its own?
It's called diplomacy and creating a draw of support with which to sell an idea. I am assuming that, these qualities are the very reason you're spending time here at the forum. If not, then you're wasting valuable time doing so. Make better use of the opportunity, you might get the support you're looking for.
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #37 on: 11/12/2009 17:20:01 »
Hi Mr. Scientist

I saw that.  It's had a huge number of downloads.  Will start there.  And I'm not being being disengenious.  Always fascinated by new theories. My printer isn't working for some reason.  But I've asked a friend to print this.  Will need to wait until tomorrow.  I wish you guys would post to make it easy reading off the net. Unless there's a trick I can do to make the paper legible off this monitor?
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #38 on: 11/12/2009 17:21:49 »
If there is anything in the book you need to know, do not hesitate to ask. I will not make a fool of true questions. :)
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #39 on: 11/12/2009 17:40:53 »
Hi Ethos.  I'm not  diplomat and I'm not a salesman.  And I have no idea why I'm posting on this thread - or even why I started it.  To begin with I just felt angry.  Now I don't.  But our paper is published and that used to take up my time.  And now I have time on my hands.  I suppose I just wanted to quarrel with someone.  But it was a brutal attack that I was subjected to.  At leat I have the dubious satisfaction of the 'last word' but it hardly compensates.  Really all I'm doing is questioning the moral authority of any scientist who does not look at experimental evidence.  And I know this happens.  I've just been through it.  Extraordinary.

But I guess it's understandable.  People are people and scratch them you'll usually find a bigot. We're all way too fond of our opinions rather than the facts in support of those opinions.  Fortunately I'm an exception to the rule?  LOL
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #40 on: 11/12/2009 17:41:55 »
If there is anything in the book you need to know, do not hesitate to ask. I will not make a fool of true questions. :)

Thanks Mr. Scientist.
 

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« Reply #41 on: 11/12/2009 17:49:28 »
You're welcome. Physics is not easy - not even for the most intellectual! :)
 

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« Reply #42 on: 11/12/2009 17:49:53 »
Even I still need to understand the very basics :)
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #43 on: 11/12/2009 19:30:40 »
Mr. Scientist - just for the record - I have my own strange model that predicted this effect on the circuit that I referred to.  But, unlike yours, my model remains entirely incomprehensible to all. My son points out that the number of people who understand it increases in inverse proportion to the number of people who read it.  Rather rude.  LOL

But I shall wrap my mind around your model when I can get a printed copy of it.  And will get back to you.  Such fun.  I love theorists and their theories.  There's a plethora of such on this forum.  Most of them are shrouded in math - which leaves me entirely in the dark.  If yours follows this trend then I shall be obliged to give up.  Vern has an interesting take.  Attributes all to electrons.  But he's hopelessly wrong.  JerryGG - used to post here - dominated the threads with multiple versions all subjected to multiple revisions.  Did it with such energy I felt I needed to take cover.  Could never understand a word of it.  He was the most vociferous in his objections to my experiment.  Found it highly offensive.  I found his objections offensive.  So we're quits.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #44 on: 12/12/2009 15:26:06 »
"Golly Bored chemist.  I have NEVER claimed an over unity result in the paper."
No you claimed it in another thread.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=23243.0
Had you forgotten about that, or are you hoping to mislead people into thinking that I'm putting words in your mouth?

Are you now disowning that claim?
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #45 on: 13/12/2009 03:33:12 »
Golly Bored chemist.  I have just tried that link. Unless I'm doing something wrong - it simply goes back to a post in this thread.  I am referring to a PAPER where you insist that I 'stress' over unity.  I do not.  You are either prevaricating, or you are mistaken.  The first speaks to your motives, the second to your understandings.  I'm not sure which is more compromised.

Regarding your rude reference to my work on grizelda's thread - when one makes a prediction as a required consequence to a proposed thesis - and that consequence is tested, measured and found to be correct - then the thesis is normally considered to be a full blown or partial theory depending on the test and the thesis itself.  Or is this only true if it proposed and tested by mainstream science - and the results also then conform to mainstream's requirement in term of thermodynamic laws?

In which case, the universe according to Bored Chemist would never have progressed beyond the first scientific observations that we are the very centre of God's creation and all revolves around our little planet. I might remind you that those observations were also rather unpopular.

« Last Edit: 13/12/2009 03:50:18 by witsend »
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #46 on: 13/12/2009 07:20:00 »
Guys this is a draft of a report that may explain what was intended in this experiment.  Hope it helps to clarify things.
Rosemary

TECHNOLOGICAL EXPLANATION

It is impossible to determine the actual properties of electric current flow.  Some experts attribute this to the flow of electrons that move against each other in a kind of cascading domino reaction.  Yet others simply refer to the flow of ‘charge’.  But neither school has been able to categorically state what ‘moves’ and electric current is invisible in normal circuit conditions.  Science is a field that deals in precise measurements.  And, while the properties of a current may not be known, it’s effects are measurable.  So, light a light and we can measure both the light intensity and the amount of energy delivered to generate that light intensity.  In broad terms this is known as an energy equivalence.  And in terms of this example – it means that if you have delivered 100 watts of energy – then you cannot, under any circumstances, get more than 100 watts of ‘brightness’ from that light.  This equivalence is generally referred to as ‘unity’ and the mathematical understanding is that unity cannot be exceeded.

This ‘equivalence’ is required and defined in the Laws of Thermodynamics.  These have been modified through the centuries since Newton first proposed them – but the single theme that dominates all interpretations is that you can never get back more than you put in.  Under no circumstances can you get a brighter brightness in any lamp – than the units of energy delivered to light that lamp.  No element on any stove can give off more heat than the amount of energy delivered to generate that heat.  And so it goes. 

So how then does one explain a circuit where a battery supply source barely loses its energy while it cooks a load resistor or an element that is placed in series with that supply?  This, in effect is what was claimed in a widely accredited experiment published in Quantum Magazine in October 2002.  And this is also what has now been replicated by Glen Lettenmaier in 2009 – the details of which experiment are available on Scribd – an internet publication for open source contributors.  It is also widely replicated by numerous experimenters and posted throughout the internet.  In effect, these experimentalists are proving, demonstrably and repeatably, that it is possible to deliver a great deal more energy than was ever first supplied.  That light can shine at least four times brighter.  That stove can get four times hotter – than the energy that was applied to light the light – heat the stove.  In effect there may be a requirement to include a new particle into  Thermodynamic Laws.  And this evidence  is spreading like a heat rash across the globe.    All those academics trained by each other throughout all those centuries –  appear to have simply got it wrong.

But that is only true if the measurements stand up to scrutiny.  Fortunately Tektronix availed some of these experimentalists with the use of really sophisticated measuring equipment.  As mentioned by contributors to the energetic forum blog on alternate energy, ‘argue these numbers and you must take up your quarrel with God’.  To add to the required measurements’ proof and proficiency, photographs were taken of the equipment – films were made concurrently and careful attention was paid to all possible sources of ‘distortion’ of measurement.  These factors were systematically eliminated in a series of 13 tests – culminating with empirical and absolute proof of concept.  Indeed it is possible to exceed the constraints determined by our learned and revered.  In fact there seems to be some real potential to access this energy with a zero loss of energy to the supply source.

Open source has now done what open source does best.  It first argued the evidence in a series of postings on two dominating blogs including overunity.com and energeticforum.com.  Then it prepared a paper for review and has now submitted this to the IEEE – the world’s leading professional association for the advancement of technology.  It has again taken the evidence to the experts to judge it for themselves.  And all this brings the 2002 publication to full circle.  And where that first publication was ignored by our academia – a second was rejected out of hand, a third was rejected after review, the hope now is that this last application will be more seriously considered for publication.  But there is a persistent concern that the publication will yet again be refused on the grounds of  its apparent contradiction of the almost ‘holy’ laws of  Thermodynamics. 

So it is that, for the first time, Open Source are also looking to the media to make the knowledge of the invention available to the public and to engage the public in that review process.  This is not intended to antagonise the reviewers but is proposed as a means whereby our academics can be reminded of the need for accountability.  A refusal to accept a paper based on ‘improbability’ is not a valid basis of rejection.    This time, perhaps the public themselves can require our academics to explain where these experimentalists have got it wrong –  or if they’ve got it wrong.  Frankly Open Source have lost confidence in the impartiality of academics when considering experiments that also breach Thermodynamic Laws.  The argument proposed by academics themselves is that science is only ever progressed on experimental evidence.  Therefore is it required that the paper detailing these experiments be properly evaluated and that the public be fully advised of these findings. 

The actual question is how does this circuit breach these barriers?  It was configured deliberately and predicted to crash through those unity barriers.  But how?  Here an unlikely series of events were brought into play that led RA to the conclusion that circuits could be configured to deliver far greater efficiency than classically proposed.  RA read Garry Zukov’s book ‘The Dancing Wu Li Masters.  She was fascinated by the subject but had never been trained in physics and, more to the point was also not trained in math.  Some physicists are on record as saying that God Himself is a mathematician.  But the actual requirement in a study of physics is not only the math but the symmetries that are a kind of short cut to a description of particles and particle interactions.  And through a series of patterns RA was able to establish a reasonable approximation of the actual properties of stable particles.  These patterns were then more fully developed into a magnetic field model that concluded, broadly, that all matter was made up of composites of a single fundamental bipolar particle that she proposed could be called a zipon.

Of interest is that, in a field, these particles are seen to be a kind of controlling force – fundamental to all the forces, that then organise matter into four distinct divisions each measured as a gravitational, electromagnetic or nuclear force.  Also in terms of that model this particle’s universal pervasiveness is closely akin to dark matter that is seen to bind our galaxies.  In this same way it also binds amalgams of matter to create our visible planet.   In essence, the atoms that are bound into identifiable objects are actually bound by these invisible fields of particles.  The fields are plastic in nature and can move through space, and in time.  And they do this.   They organise themselves around matter in any way required to promote their intrinsic need to find a balance, or a condition of net zero charge. 

As these concepts relate to the transfer of electric energy, the model required a slight departure from conventional understanding of current flow.   She proposed that current flow comprises the movement of these magnetic fields as strings through closed circuits.  When a source was not able to find a state of balance then that imbalance is measured as potential difference.  In other words, a measurable voltage imbalance was the measure of the imbalance in the fields of zipons.   And this potential difference could be diminished if those zipons could also find a path through an electric circuit which would then alter their spin and reduce that source imbalance.  The flow of those strings of zipons comprises electric current flow.  But the zipons that come from that source will also return to that source, subject to the availability of a path through the circuitry.

And when they flow, or while they forge this path through electric circuitry, they also induce a corresponding imbalance in the inductive components of that circuit.   This is widely known.  It is seen as ‘stored’ energy.   But the difference to convention and this model is subtle.  This stored energy establishes an imbalance in the circuit material – in that resistor or that element.  Being imbalanced these fields also require an established state of balance.  And given a chance to re-establish this balance, a chance to reduce this experienced and measurable potential difference, then they, in turn induce a second flow of current, in anti-phase to the first flow of current.  So, provided that there is a path available in the circuit, it too can return its extruded fields back to it’s own supply source being the resistor or the element itself.  In other words there are two sources of energy in every one cycle of current flow through a closed circuit.  The one is induced from the supply source, the other is induced from the resistor in series with that supply.  Both have independent supply or energy sources and both are able to reduce their potential difference provided that some circuit path is made available to do this.

The availability of the path is in the circuit design itself.  Here the source battery induces the first current path cycle, clockwise.  Then that flow is interrupted by opening the switch and ‘taking away’ the required closed path.  But simultaneously there is a new path opened for the second cycle where the resistor transfers its energy onto a second path - anticlockwise.   At speed, or at fast frequencies, the two cycles are able to resonate against each other, like a swing that is first pushed in one direction and then in the other.  And the net result is that the energy that is applied from the source is then returned to the source.  The energy that is applied from the circuit is returned to the circuit.  But in both cases that energy is simply strings of zipons that are trying to get back to their respective sources in order to diminish their experienced imbalance or their measured potential differences.  So under these special circuit conditions there is not only a conservation of energy, being the zipons themselves which return to their respective sources, but there is also a conservation of charge in the supply which is then continually recharged during the second cycle of the switched circuit.

But what then explains the ‘heat’ that is measured to be dissipated at the source. Here, again in line with observation but possibly not in line with classical thought, it is proposed that the zipons that are not extruded from the material of the circuit components, remain in the material, in the inductive wire itself.  But the essential symmetry of their fields has been broken through the extrusion of some of its fields.  This break results in a state of chaos that excites these fields into a cascade of zipons that recongregate within that material – in their attempt to regain that state of balance. 

It is further proposed that the size of the zipons relates to its velocity.  In a field they are cold and fast and small and entirely undetectable.  But break those symmetries, and in a precise and inverse proportionate ratio the zipons become hot and slow and manifest.  This, in turn results in some of those zipons decaying into photons and then radiating away from the resistive material itself.  This results in the systematic degradation of the bound state of the resistor which is seen as material fatigue. 


« Last Edit: 13/12/2009 09:02:48 by witsend »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #47 on: 13/12/2009 10:58:22 »
Golly Bored chemist.  I have just tried that link. Unless I'm doing something wrong - it simply goes back to a post in this thread. 


No, it does not. It goes to another thread called "A circuit that produces overunity results".
Do you see the subtle implication there that you are talking about an overunity system?

While I'm at it "I am referring to a PAPER where you insist that I 'stress' over unity."
No, I said you stressed the importance of the true RMS reading of a meter in that paper.
Two points about this.
"Regarding your rude reference to my work on grizelda's thread - when one makes a prediction as a required consequence to a proposed thesis - and that consequence is tested, measured and found to be correct - then the thesis is normally considered to be a full blown or partial theory depending on the test and the thesis itself. "
The finding of something that is consistent with your idea doesn't prove it. If I believe in Santa Claus and I get presents that doesn't prove he exists.
secondly, it is still impossible to prove a scientific theory so you remain both wrong and arrogant. Of course you might think I'm arrogant too, but at least I'm not claiming to have single handedly rewritten the laws of physics.

Also, this "In which case, the universe according to Bored Chemist would never have progressed beyond the first scientific observations that we are the very centre of God's creation and all revolves around our little planet. I might remind you that those observations were also rather unpopular. "
is a blatant strawman.
I never said that, so I don't have to answer for it.
On the other hand you might like to explain why you have accused me of taking such a silly stance.
 

Offline witsend

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« Reply #48 on: 13/12/2009 18:32:22 »
Bored chemist,  ;D

It's hardly a 'subtle implication'.  I used that as a thread title with sledgehammer emphasis.  It was intended to be controversial - but is no less than the truth.  The circuit is indeed measured to dissipate energy while the supply source battery voltage climbs rather than otherwise.  Jusst check out the thread at energeticforum.com.  But - here's the thing.  This thread is intended to question when our academics lose their authority.  My applications to academics are the only actual REPORTS that I have made in earnest.  You will notice that this final paper that we have submitted - DOES NOT REFER TO OVER UNITY.  Therefore is your consstant complaint about this tedious, boring, irrelevant and misleading.

The finding of something that was PREDICTED in terms of a field model - may be considered as proof of that field model.  Unless of course you can propose where a source of energy has come into play to account for the co-efficient in excess of 8 or more than 800%.  Or where classical science proposes that it is possible to dissipate energy at no loss of energy from a battery supply.

I get it that you are not claiming that you have singlehandedly rewritten the laws of physics.  I on the other hand am. I'm not sure how one is meant to point out a discovery.  Presumably you would prefer it that I do not mention this at all.  Or would you prefer it that I pretend that someone else devised the model?  Or perhaps - to keep you happy I should deny any such thesis.  Not sure how to say it except as it is.  I proposed a model.  It predicted an anomalous result.  That result became apparent.  It is now repeatedly evident  therefore no longer anomalous.  It makes me think that the proposals in that model may be correct.  Sorry.  No other way I know of to say this.  Unless, as mentioned, you can explain those extraordinary results in terms of classical paradigms.  If you can then you stand alone among all physicists. 

I have never said that you have taken a silly stance.  I've accused you of prevarication - and a lot of other things.  Silliness never came into it.  In as much as you will not take congniscance of the facts that are now evident in this experiment then I think that your opinion is largely irrelevant - silly or otherwise.  But feel free to indulge it.  I also suspect that you struggle with these concepts and that speaks somewhat to your natural aptitudes or lack of them.  But that's your problem.  Not mine.
« Last Edit: 13/12/2009 18:52:26 by witsend »
 

Offline glovesforfoxes

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WHEN SCIENCE LOSES ITS AUTHORITY
« Reply #49 on: 13/12/2009 19:23:06 »
Quote
I also suspect that you struggle with these concepts and that speaks somewhat to your natural aptitudes or lack of them.  But that's your problem.  Not mine

Actually, it kind of is. The responsibility is on the scientist to explain properly, clearly & well so that people can understand. If you can't, you won't get much support for quite a while, no matter how good your evidence is.
 

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« Reply #49 on: 13/12/2009 19:23:06 »

 

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