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Author Topic: Does Gravity do any work?  (Read 69839 times)

Offline Geezer

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Does Gravity do any work?
« Reply #25 on: 13/12/2009 07:57:35 »
You may try to redefine the definition of work all you want, but it's already been defined. Sorry.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Does Gravity do any work?
« Reply #26 on: 13/12/2009 08:12:58 »
But it proved you wrong, so the sorry from you was disingeneous. I can assure you, that matter is the presence of gravity, so gravity has its own work associated to it as well. You cannot have a material body without the presence of gravity - the two are fundamentally the same thing in relativity.
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #27 on: 13/12/2009 08:23:45 »
OK. So let's assume, for a moment, that you are correct and that work is being done in propelling you around the universe.

Where is the source of the energy that is doing that work, and how is it being communicated to your mass?
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Does Gravity do any work?
« Reply #28 on: 13/12/2009 08:26:30 »
The graviton - and according to most scientists, it's a true particle even though its still not been found. In fact, let's take this conjecture rather than your own. Makes things a hell of a lot simpler.

Do not particles contain a kinetic energy which can provide them with work?

Do not gravitons by theory physically interact all material bodies together attractively?
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Does Gravity do any work?
« Reply #29 on: 13/12/2009 08:28:17 »
You may try to redefine the definition of work all you want, but it's already been defined. Sorry.

And by the way.. i never redefined anything. The work is basic textbook physics.
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #30 on: 13/12/2009 08:38:14 »
Yes. Gravitrons may explain how the gravitational force is communicated. But how would that force be able to impart a force that is orthagonal to it?
 

Offline Geezer

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Does Gravity do any work?
« Reply #31 on: 13/12/2009 08:46:15 »
You may try to redefine the definition of work all you want, but it's already been defined. Sorry.

And by the way.. i never redefined anything. The work is basic textbook physics.

That's good. I only understand basic textbook physics.
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #32 on: 13/12/2009 08:59:06 »
Quote
I give up. I am telling you all, there is work assocoiated to the gravity of something. If it didn't, gravitational objects could not move. It's very simple.
 


Dearie me, Mr S,

That doesn't strike me as being too scientific. If you'll pardon my unscientific opinion, it sounds a lot more like

"Proof By Loud Assertion" than anything else.

BTW, gravitational objects move by virtue of their kinetic energy. What's to slow them down?

G
« Last Edit: 13/12/2009 09:35:19 by Geezer »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #33 on: 13/12/2009 10:13:20 »
It is in error, because gravity is the same as matter, and since matter does work, the postulation speaks for itself :)
The unit of mass is the kilogram.
The units in which gravity gets measured depend on how you look at it but they are either M^3/S^-2/Kg or just Kg M S^-2

two things with different units are not the same thing.

Gravity is a force and matter is what forces act on.
They are plainly different and it's silly to say they are the same.

For what it's worth, Einstein said that mass was the equivalent of energy rather than of gravity.

 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Does Gravity do any work?
« Reply #34 on: 13/12/2009 12:57:58 »
It is in error, because gravity is the same as matter, and since matter does work, the postulation speaks for itself :)
The unit of mass is the kilogram.
The units in which gravity gets measured depend on how you look at it but they are either M^3/S^-2/Kg or just Kg M S^-2

two things with different units are not the same thing.

Gravity is a force and matter is what forces act on.
They are plainly different and it's silly to say they are the same.

For what it's worth, Einstein said that mass was the equivalent of energy rather than of gravity.



Not according to Einstein. Gravity and matter are essentially the same thing; your arguement consists of what units one wishes to choose to measure something, but math is abstractual that way and can't itself be used as an arguement.

If Einsteins theory was not correct locally, then we would see matter without the presence of gravitational distortions... or atleast, hypothetically-saying, since we wouldn't be here at all if the two where not just different fascets or different sides to the same quantum coin.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #35 on: 13/12/2009 12:59:37 »
Quote
I give up. I am telling you all, there is work assocoiated to the gravity of something. If it didn't, gravitational objects could not move. It's very simple.
 


Dearie me, Mr S,

That doesn't strike me as being too scientific. If you'll pardon my unscientific opinion, it sounds a lot more like

"Proof By Loud Assertion" than anything else.

BTW, gravitational objects move by virtue of their kinetic energy. What's to slow them down?

G

A decrease in kinetic energy of course, but for a graviton this will not necesserily happen because it must move at a constant speed of c if it where to actually be a physical attraction from one body of mass to another.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #36 on: 13/12/2009 13:00:47 »
Yes. Gravitrons may explain how the gravitational force is communicated. But how would that force be able to impart a force that is orthagonal to it?

Vector calculus. You could work orthagonal vectors to suit what you wanted to measure.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #37 on: 13/12/2009 13:01:20 »
And of course the laws of motion included, along with every other quantum detail you wish or need to have.
 

Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #38 on: 13/12/2009 13:29:14 »
It is in error, because gravity is the same as matter, and since matter does work, the postulation speaks for itself :)
Mr. Scientist.  I believe that I have figured out what you meant to say:  "Gravity is an inherent part of Matter.  It can not be separated.  But it does do work."  Thanks, Joe L. Ogan
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #39 on: 13/12/2009 13:32:25 »
Yes, pretty much :)
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Does Gravity do any work?
« Reply #40 on: 13/12/2009 13:33:07 »
But Work - in the scientific meaning of it because of the total equality of mass and the presence of gravity.
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #41 on: 13/12/2009 17:34:44 »
Yes. Gravitrons may explain how the gravitational force is communicated. But how would that force be able to impart a force that is orthagonal to it?

Vector calculus. You could work orthogonal vectors to suit what you wanted to measure.

Mr S, I do understand vectors, and it is quite impossible to derive any force that is orthogonal to another force by vector analysis, vector calculus or anything else. This is not a math problem.

I'll give you a model and you can try to knock it down:

Attach a string to a pebble. Now swing the pebble around your head. It orbits around your hand. Easy! Right?

Now try to repeat the experiment without moving your hand in a circle. It's impossible because you cannot impart any rotational movement to the pebble.

Think of gravity as the string and your hand as the center of mass of the earth. Unless the center of mass of the earth executes a circular path relative to you (and it doesn't), it can do nothing to propel you.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #42 on: 13/12/2009 20:28:26 »
It is in error, because gravity is the same as matter, and since matter does work, the postulation speaks for itself :)
The unit of mass is the kilogram.
The units in which gravity gets measured depend on how you look at it but they are either M^3/S^-2/Kg or just Kg M S^-2

two things with different units are not the same thing.

Gravity is a force and matter is what forces act on.
They are plainly different and it's silly to say they are the same.

For what it's worth, Einstein said that mass was the equivalent of energy rather than of gravity.



Not according to Einstein. Gravity and matter are essentially the same thing; your arguement consists of what units one wishes to choose to measure something, but math is abstractual that way and can't itself be used as an arguement.

If Einsteins theory was not correct locally, then we would see matter without the presence of gravitational distortions... or atleast, hypothetically-saying, since we wouldn't be here at all if the two where not just different fascets or different sides to the same quantum coin.
Just plain wrong.
If I chose to measure it in feet, ponds and days that would be a metter of choice but, watever base units you choose the units of mass and gravity will not be the same.
One is a force and the other isn't.
As has been pointed out before, you are seeking "proof by shouting" and that's not going to work here.

It's true that matter produces gravity but that doesn't mean it's the same thing.
Engines produce smoke, but you wouldn't try to run a car on smoke.
« Last Edit: 13/12/2009 20:30:03 by Bored chemist »
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #43 on: 13/12/2009 20:56:46 »
It is in error, because gravity is the same as matter, and since matter does work, the postulation speaks for itself :)
Mr. Scientist.  I believe that I have figured out what you meant to say:  "Gravity is an inherent part of Matter.  It can not be separated.  But it does do work."  Thanks, Joe L. Ogan

Joe, I think you'll find that gravity is a consequence of matter, rather than being part of it. One theory is that matter distorts space to produce gravity. Another is that gravity is produced by gravitons, although, thus far, gravitons remaim hypothetical particles. There is a lot of money being spent to try to observe them, but as far as I am aware, they have not been observed yet.
 

Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #44 on: 13/12/2009 22:23:47 »
Would I be wrong in saying, "Gravity is an inherent function of Matter."?  I am trying to get a clearcut definition of Gravity so I can discuss it intelligently with, not only Scientific people but, with the general Population.  Thanks for your help.  Joe L. Ogan
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #45 on: 14/12/2009 03:13:35 »
Would I be wrong in saying, "Gravity is an inherent function of Matter."?  I am trying to get a clearcut definition of Gravity so I can discuss it intelligently with, not only Scientific people but, with the general Population.  Thanks for your help.  Joe L. Ogan

Joe, you are not alone! We seem to have a lot of good science that describes quite accurately what gravity does, although it is not inconceivable that we may have to make some adjustments to that science in the future.

So the "what" part is very well understood. However, when it comes to the "how" part (as in, how is gravitational force communicated between matter) it is still something of a "work in progress". If you look up gravity on Wikipedia, you'll see the many theories of gravity.

I'm not sure how best to describe it in one sentence.
« Last Edit: 14/12/2009 03:25:11 by Geezer »
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #46 on: 14/12/2009 16:11:09 »
Would I be wrong in saying, "Gravity is an inherent function of Matter."?  I am trying to get a clearcut definition of Gravity so I can discuss it intelligently with, not only Scientific people but, with the general Population.  Thanks for your help.  Joe L. Ogan

Gravity is matter - There are both inherent forms of the same thing. Inherent here, is used in the sense of talking about matter as actual fluctuations in the form of distortions. These distortions in spacetime create the curvature that is observed around massive objects in space - and curvature is directly related to acceleration.

In relativity, this means that curvature, acceleration, matter and distortions and also including gravity are all fascets of the same presence of what we observe. Remove one of these, and you cannot deal with the rest.
« Last Edit: 14/12/2009 16:19:22 by Mr. Scientist »
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #47 on: 14/12/2009 16:14:17 »
It is in error, because gravity is the same as matter, and since matter does work, the postulation speaks for itself :)
The unit of mass is the kilogram.
The units in which gravity gets measured depend on how you look at it but they are either M^3/S^-2/Kg or just Kg M S^-2

two things with different units are not the same thing.

Gravity is a force and matter is what forces act on.
They are plainly different and it's silly to say they are the same.

For what it's worth, Einstein said that mass was the equivalent of energy rather than of gravity.



Not according to Einstein. Gravity and matter are essentially the same thing; your arguement consists of what units one wishes to choose to measure something, but math is abstractual that way and can't itself be used as an arguement.

If Einsteins theory was not correct locally, then we would see matter without the presence of gravitational distortions... or atleast, hypothetically-saying, since we wouldn't be here at all if the two where not just different fascets or different sides to the same quantum coin.
Just plain wrong.
If I chose to measure it in feet, ponds and days that would be a metter of choice but, watever base units you choose the units of mass and gravity will not be the same.
One is a force and the other isn't.
As has been pointed out before, you are seeking "proof by shouting" and that's not going to work here.

It's true that matter produces gravity but that doesn't mean it's the same thing.
Engines produce smoke, but you wouldn't try to run a car on smoke.

It's not wrong. If i can remember our debates correctly, you are associating units to justify your arguement. Gravity (or the acceleration due to gravity) is still a force exerted on the system, just as much as weight is in fact inversely proportional to the force and height from the given surface of a gravitationally-warped object.

And i'm not shouting. I've explained very civilly that you where wrong, including those who still persist not to link gravity as an inherent part and of the same single thing as matter itself. I cannot shout on the internet, and even if i could, i wouldn't shout.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Does Gravity do any work?
« Reply #48 on: 14/12/2009 16:17:40 »
You can quite easily, for instance, measure weight in Newtons. You can also measure the weight of the earth, because of it being made of units of kilograms. Corresponding the two, 1 kilogram is about 9.8 Newtons. So your presumptious nature was wrong.
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #49 on: 14/12/2009 17:54:07 »
Yes. Gravitrons may explain how the gravitational force is communicated. But how would that force be able to impart a force that is orthagonal to it?

Vector calculus. You could work orthogonal vectors to suit what you wanted to measure.

Mr S, I do understand vectors, and it is quite impossible to derive any force that is orthogonal to another force by vector analysis, vector calculus or anything else. This is not a math problem.

I'll give you a model and you can try to knock it down:

Attach a string to a pebble. Now swing the pebble around your head. It orbits around your hand. Easy! Right?

Now try to repeat the experiment without moving your hand in a circle. It's impossible because you cannot impart any rotational movement to the pebble.

Think of gravity as the string and your hand as the center of mass of the earth. Unless the center of mass of the earth executes a circular path relative to you (and it doesn't), it can do nothing to propel you.

Are we certain on this? Why not show me some of this understanding then...? Teach me something new.
« Last Edit: 14/12/2009 17:55:39 by Mr. Scientist »
 

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