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Author Topic: Can a body have multiple forms of energy simultaneously?  (Read 1708 times)

Offline standalone

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Can a single body have all forms energy at same time? If then its mass would have been increased as energy is increased.


[STANDALONE - PLEASE ENSURE THAT YOUR THREAD TITLES ARE PHRASED AS QUESTIONS, IN-LINE WITH FORUM POLICY. THANKS. CHRIS.]
« Last Edit: 28/12/2009 12:06:06 by chris »


 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Can a body have multiple forms of energy simultaneously?
« Reply #1 on: 28/12/2009 11:13:54 »
It depends on what you mean with 'mass'. If you only mean 'invariant/proper or restmass' then it is what we call 'matter' and that mass won't become heavier, that is, weight more due to the energy you transfer to it in the same 'frame of reference'.

If you on the other hand mean 'relativistic mass'. What I like to see as 'momentum', then the 'mass' will become more the more energy you transfer to a system. If I would be a smith f ex. heating/making a horseshoe from some piece of metal then I would transfer energy into it by heating it, but it wouldn't 'weight' more, do you agree?

And if I then would burn myself on the damned thing and threw it away at, let's say, ninety nine point nine, nine, nine etc of lightspeed it would still mass the same 'invariant' mass as when i burned myself on it. Would you agree to that too?

But what I did by transferring energy through heating it did change its 'relativistic mass' though. And when i threw it away I added even more 'relativistic mass' or momentum to it. The different values we use describing that horseshoes momentum and invariant mass have come through our need to differ between those different situations.

Weight can change for the horseshoe, just put it in a orbit around the earth and it becomes weightless, but it's 'invariant mass' will still be the same as on Earth. They are different properties belonging to the same object, describing it from different perspectives.

So you can be both right and wrong there as long as you don't define what you mean by mass. Normally when you speak about 'mass' you mean the 'restmass', 'invariant/proper mass' (matter) that is.

 Look here, and here

What happens when you transfer energy to a system is that it 'transforms' into different 'states' containing different properties like the metal starts to 'flow' due to the kinetic energy of the agitated molecules. Or if you take it to Siberia or the North Pole, perhaps shatters as you strike it, due to the intense cold. And the 'momentum' it gains as I threw it away will only come to 'be' when it meets a obstacle, until then it is something not measurable for that 'imaginary ant' traveling on it :)

But a single body do have all of those properties at all times, consider that earth is moving around the sun, and that the solar system as a whole is moving in yet another direction. If we ever would hit a cosmic 'wall' that horseshoe would gain a really big momentum :)

So it depends on what you measure it against, and that's your 'frame of reference'.
That can vary as you chose, and when you defined the horseshoe against, lets say a fast moving bird, you will suddenly have yourself a 'system' with you as the observer. Well, sort of.


Even when you accelerate you can't really define your 'momentum' or 'relativistic mass'. You will always need a 'referent', against whom you measure. And that is 'frames of reference' only true from case to case, change your reference point and another 'momentum' or 'relativistic mass' will become true for you.

---

A simple example of that. You're enclosed in a coffin some idiot built, without windows, calling it a 'spaceship' (what a joke, Buck Rogers wouldn't have gone near it.). You accelerate at let's say two G (gravities) weighting the double of normal. What you don't know is that the jerk building it placed you in a region where the gravity acting on your ship already is one gravity (G) due to all the traffic lights (Black holes). So you trust in those two G:s and congratulate yourself to be safely home to tea. But in reality your spouse will climb the walls finding that you once more is out dillydallying, as she ever so darkly suspects, with those extraterrestrials in a pub of your choice.

Without a 'exterior' reference point you can't guarantee anything inside Space Time :)

And whatever you do when coming home, don't tell her. "Ha, touch that trigger if you dare." Just smile, it's much better...

Ah, safer too.
« Last Edit: 28/12/2009 11:57:37 by yor_on »
 

Offline standalone

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Can a body have multiple forms of energy simultaneously?
« Reply #2 on: 31/12/2009 16:34:50 »
Mass and energy are something that doesnot leave the universe to be simply a space.
 

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Can a body have multiple forms of energy simultaneously?
« Reply #2 on: 31/12/2009 16:34:50 »

 

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