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Author Topic: Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?  (Read 33701 times)

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #25 on: 05/09/2010 18:55:44 »
OK.
Martin, just for a start your assertion that "The epidermal layer is composed of dead cells-whose function is to keep things (i.e. like NO molecules) out of the body."
is wrong.
The stratum corneum is made of dead cells.
Also, it's primary purpose is to keep water in.

It happens to do a reasonable job of keeping stuff out; but it's not that good.
Are you aware of nicotine patches and such?
Did you know that most nerve agents are able to penetrate intact skin in large enough amounts to kill people?
A slightly more obscure variation on the nicotine patch is the glyceryl trinitrate patch used in the treatment of angina. They work quite well. As it happens they work because the GTN gets   converted to nitric oxide.

Since it's clear that all these big molecules like sarin, nicotine or GTN can get through the skin (all the layers of it) it is absurd to say that nitric oxide can't.

You position is ridiculous and you owe Variola an apology.
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #26 on: 05/09/2010 19:15:50 »
Careful BC, you will be asked if you are a real chemist and if you have anything to support that!  :)

Quote
A slightly more obscure variation on the nicotine patch is the glyceryl trinitrate patch used in the treatment of angina. They work quite well. As it happens they work because the GTN gets  converted to nitric oxide.
 
Ahhhhh so that's how they work, that's quite clever.





 

Offline RD

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« Reply #27 on: 05/09/2010 19:18:33 »
Why isn't Viagra supplied in topical form?

There are similar medications which are applied locally ...

Quote
Alprostadil is sold in the United States as urethral suppositories, under the brand name MUSE  (Medicated Urethral Suppository for Erection) by Vivus ...  Muse delivers alprostadil as a penile suppository, inserted into the urethra, at least ten minutes before the erection will be needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alprostadil

 [:0]
 

Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #28 on: 06/09/2010 05:53:10 »
Oh. You guys are still going on with this little p***ing match. (Si voul ballere Signor Contino!)

I started in reading Huck Finn today but the actual pertinent story was "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" It's about a bunch of supercilious "experts" who are married to the logical fallacy of reasoning by analogy who meet a pragmatic no-nonsense Yankee.

It is fallacious reasoning by analogy to claim that (a)because nerve gases are absorbed through the skin, or (b)MUSE is absorbed by the uretheral mucosa, or (c)transdermal nitro patches work therefore it is proven that these socks work to deliver pharmacologically active NO across the epidermal barrier

Here's a simple experiment you can try at home. Since you fellows assert that transdermal NTG works by delivering NO across the dermal barrier, why don't you rub some on your penis and see if it promotes an erection like Levitra does?

Don't bother. I tried it myself years ago. Nothing happens...whereas I can confidently assure you that Levitra works quite well thank you. How can that be if your reasoning is sound? (Besides that, your lady friend will very likely refuse your affections "with that stuff coating your thing")
« Last Edit: 06/09/2010 06:55:20 by MartinTheK »
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #29 on: 06/09/2010 06:22:17 »
Martin,

I suspect you don't have other user's signatures visible. You might find it revealing if you enable them.

 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #30 on: 06/09/2010 07:00:01 »
The sun came up yesterday and today but, strictly speaking, it's false reasoning to assume that it will come up tomorrow.

I didn't say that the fact that some things go through the skin proves that NO will; I just said it makes it reasonable to assume that it might.
It is, on the other hand, unreasonable to assume that it wont.

Your understanding of the penis also seems limited.
Firstly , the normal response of the penis to being rubbed with anything is to become erect. I guess you had forgotten that.
Secondly the idea that transdermally supplied GTN will promote erections is pretty mainstream science. Here's a reference you can belittle.
"The presently available scientific documentation, although less extensive, indicates that NO donors, such as topically applied nitroglycerin (GTN; for example, 1-2 puffs of an ordinary GTN spray applied to the shaft of the penis), might be a reasonable alternative. Further larger-scale research on the efficacy and tolerability of topical GTN is needed to establish its full therapeutic potential in the treatment of erectile dysfunction."

from
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9891191
Or this one
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/166/1/115

Thirdly, the placebo effect could do wonders here.
« Last Edit: 06/09/2010 07:10:24 by Bored chemist »
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #31 on: 06/09/2010 07:09:49 »

"The presently available scientific documentation, although less extensive, indicates that NO donors, such as topically applied nitroglycerin (GTN; for example, 1-2 puffs of an ordinary GTN spray applied to the shaft of the penis), might be a reasonable alternative. Further larger-scale research on the efficacy and tolerability of topical GTN is needed to establish its full therapeutic potential in the treatment of erectile dysfunction."


I'm not sure we should let Neil know about this. Excessive application of GTN might lead to unfortunate accidents.
« Last Edit: 06/09/2010 07:12:44 by Geezer »
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #32 on: 06/09/2010 07:33:11 »
Martin,

I suspect you don't have other user's signatures visible. You might find it revealing if you enable them.




Well quite. But there is no point, not only does it state in my profile I am female, I have also made reference to it when Martin claimed I was a character out of a book, but he appears to lack sufficient reading comprehension.
Hence his references to calling me 'Mister' and 'little buddy'.

I didn't realise you can hide other peoples signatures, I just assumed he was being a ****.

It is a pity because I now can't take Martin up on his scientific offer of rubbing stuff onto my penis to see if it becomes hard. In my experience, you don't even have to rub them for that to happen! Does that mean I emit GTN which affects men in my immediate vicinity?  :D
« Last Edit: 06/09/2010 07:40:20 by Variola »
 

Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #33 on: 06/09/2010 07:55:38 »
I don't care how many papers you've read. I am the personal owner and operator of a penis that does not become erect...

(a) no matter how much you rub it
(b) no matter how much topical nitroglycerine you apply to it- because it doesn't deliver pharmacologically significant levels of NO.
but
(c) responds well to oral ingestion of phosphodiesterase inhibitors (ie:Viagra et al) which does cut the mustard NO wise.

Now that is a concrete reproducible fact that can be verified easily by anybody who cares to give it a try.  NTG applied topically simply does not provide effective levels of NO sufficient to work..I don't care what kind of phony and poorly designed study may say differently. Ask the man that owns one, why don't you?

Now then, if slathering NTG directly on the skin doesn't deliver NO...just maybe I am justifiably skeptical of these preposterous socks' ridiculous claims.


Finally as to the suggestion that I should be mindful of the identities of the other parties in this discussion,how is that scientific? Facts is facts no matter who speaks them. NTG doesn't reverse ED because it just plain doesn't put enough NO across the skin to do that. All the King's horses and all the King's men don't change that simple, concrete and easily verifiable fact.
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #34 on: 06/09/2010 08:26:22 »
You really are floundering now aren't you?

Quote
Now that is a concrete reproducible fact that can be verified easily by anybody who cares to give it a try.  NTG applied topically simply does not provide effective levels of NO sufficient to work..I don't care what kind of phony and poorly designed study may say differently. Ask the man that owns one, why don't you?
   

One data point, woo. That does not smack of science to me.
 
Quote
Now then, if slathering NTG directly on the skin doesn't deliver NO...just maybe I am justifiably skeptical of these preposterous socks' ridiculous claims.
 

Being sceptical is healthy. I am sceptical of the claims of the socks. That does not equate to NO being unable to pass through the skin. Your original argument was based on skin being composed of a dead layer which nothing can pass through, now you are bringing a dysfunctional penis into the argument!  ::)


Quote
Finally as to the suggestion that I should be mindful of the identities of the other parties in this discussion,how is that scientific?   

It isn't scientific, but it does stop you  might make you look less like a complete d1ck.

Quote
NTG doesn't reverse ED because it just plain doesn't put enough NO across the skin to do that. All the King's horses and all the King's men don't change that simple, concrete and easily verifiable fact.

Oh so now it has gone from zero NO being able to cross the skin to not enough!! You are too funny!!




 

Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #35 on: 06/09/2010 14:20:02 »
Let's consult the I Ching.

Oh look! Hexagram number 4 - Youthful Folly

THE JUDGMENT


   YOUTHFUL FOLLY has success.
   It is not I who seek the young fool;
   The young fool seeks me.
   At the first oracle I inform him.
   If he asks two or three times, it is     importunity.
   If he importunes, I give him no information.
   Perseverance furthers.


Ancient wisdom prevails.
« Last Edit: 06/09/2010 14:33:36 by MartinTheK »
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #36 on: 06/09/2010 14:24:48 »
Ancient claptrap prevails.

It takes a real man to admit when he is wrong.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #37 on: 06/09/2010 20:56:08 »
Martin, do you realise that, since you can say "I am the personal owner and operator of a penis that does not become erect...

(a) no matter how much you rub it...",
your dick doesn't work properly?


Given that you have problems in that department, it's not a valid yardstick  for how well penises in general react to GTN.

Just because yours doesn't work, doesn't mean that other people's don't.
One data point isn't good science; when you know it's an atypical point, then it's not science at all.

This morning as I was getting ready to get the bus to work I didn't have much time to spend on this; but I had no problem finding journal articles in what seem to be peer reviewed literature (I posted links to a couple) that show that GTN jolly well does help in at least some cases of erectile dysfunction so for you to say "NTG doesn't reverse ED because it just plain doesn't put enough NO across the skin to do that. All the King's horses and all the King's men don't change that simple, concrete and easily verifiable fact." is laughable.

This is a science website; if the best you can do is cite the I Ching, then you have really missed the point.

Why not just admit you were wrong?

« Last Edit: 06/09/2010 20:58:56 by Bored chemist »
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #38 on: 06/09/2010 21:17:19 »
BC,

When you said "yardstick", were you referring to the US Yard or the Imperial Yard?
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #39 on: 06/09/2010 22:01:54 »
BC,

When you said "yardstick", were you referring to the US Yard or the Imperial Yard?

Either way, if a any man here has a penis that is comparable to a yard stick I want his number...  :D
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #40 on: 06/09/2010 22:19:46 »
BC,

When you said "yardstick", were you referring to the US Yard or the Imperial Yard?

Either way, if a any man here has a penis that is comparable to a yard stick I want his number...  :D

It's just as well it was yards rather than cubits. Then we'd be talking about biblical proportions.
 

Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #41 on: 07/09/2010 04:59:08 »
Res Ipsa Loquitur
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #42 on: 07/09/2010 06:04:23 »
I try not to brag about it.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #43 on: 07/09/2010 07:08:09 »
Res Ipsa Loquitur
It speaks for itself that Martin started off with a false statement "The epidermal layer is composed of dead cells-whose function is to keep things (i.e. like NO molecules) out of the body.".
There were also a few ad hom attacks thrown in.
 
Then refused to accept scientific  literature that shows he was wrong.
He also tried to argue that because he has problems with it, nobody would respond to GTN.
He failed to accept that argument by analogy, while strictly not logical proof, is strong evidence in favour of an idea.

Yep, Res Ipsa Loquitur indeed.
« Last Edit: 07/09/2010 07:16:11 by Bored chemist »
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #44 on: 07/09/2010 08:00:54 »
Quod Erat Demonstrandum
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #45 on: 07/09/2010 08:02:57 »
Biggus Dickus.
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #46 on: 07/09/2010 08:21:50 »
Biggus Dickus.

You can't drag Palin into this! Don't you realize that could destabilize the entire Western World?
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #47 on: 07/09/2010 08:37:57 »
Biggus Dickus.

You can't drag Palin into this! Don't you realize that could destabilize the entire Western World?

But have you met his wife? Incontinentia Buttockus? 
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #48 on: 07/09/2010 09:43:10 »
But have you met his wife? Incontinentia Buttockus? 

Not in person, but I introduced her to Benny Hill.
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #49 on: 07/09/2010 10:00:36 »
 ;D ;D

Did I not mention I have LoB tourettes.... it is not good to encourage me  [:o)]

Welease Bwian.


OT, (ish) why do people insist on carrying on with a false argument rather than admit their are wrong? What is it in peoples psyche that makes them continue to look more and more foolish rather than just say " Hey you might be right there-you learn something new every day"  ??? I have seen it on every forum I have ever visited and on all manner of topics.
 

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