The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Do electrons rotate?  (Read 28080 times)

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 11978
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #75 on: 27/02/2010 15:39:43 »
Sure, but it was electrons orbitals and there are several references, the one I first saw the idea on was this site but if you Google there are several discussing and experimenting with the proposition. Here is another description, but it's a pay-site Toward a better understanding of the atom superposition and electron delocalization molecular orbital theory and a systematic test

And this one I think you will find informative. Superposition.

---Quote---

 The empirical support for the superposition principle outlined above validates its use for theoretical interpretation. For example, we can use the superposition principle to understand the electronic ground state of the hydrogen atom, which in atomic units is, < r | Y > = Y (r) = p -1/2 exp(-r). This equation says that the hydrogen atom's electron is in a weighted superposition of all possible distances, r, from the nucleus. It is not orbiting the nucleus in a circular orbit or an elliptical orbit, it is not moving at all in any ordinary sense. The electron does not execute a classical trajectory within the atom. This is why in quantum mechanics we say the electron is in a stationary state, and why, un-like moving charges, it does not radiate or absorb energy unless it is making a transition from one allowed stationary state to another.

The superposition principle also provides a simple interpretation of the covalent chemical bond. In H2+, for example, at the most rudimentary level of theory, we write the molecular orbital as a linear superposition of the 1s orbitals of the two hydrogen atoms: YMO = 2-1/2 (y1sa + y1sb). Adding the probability amplitudes, y1sa and y1sb, is equivalent to saying the electron is delocalized over the molecule as a whole, and just as in the hydrogen atom case it is not correct to think of the electron as executing a trajectory or hopping back and forth between the two atoms. Squaring YMO (the sum of two probability amplitudes) to obtain the probability density yields an interference term, 2y1say1sb, which leads to a build-up of charge in the internuclear region. Thus constructive interference associated with an in-phase linear superposition of atomic states provides an understanding of the mechanism of chemical bond formation..

--End of quote-- And very impressive, to me at least :)

Especially considering that his main interest is chemistry.
Real good paper that one.
« Last Edit: 27/02/2010 16:18:52 by yor_on »
 

Offline JP

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3366
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #76 on: 27/02/2010 16:23:43 »
Cool.  Now I get what you're talking about.  I'm still a little confused about what you're asking.  If you have an atom that can be either "0" or "1," then when you measure it it's either "0" or "1," not both.  The advantage of quantum mechanics, as you posted, is that it's in 2 states at once until you measure it (but your measurement still requires that it choose one of those two states.)

I'm a bit lost about your asking if it's in four states. 
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 11978
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #77 on: 27/02/2010 16:45:11 »
I'm just playing with the concept :)
If 'one electron' can use two orbitals superpositioned and you can have two possible orbitals with 'oposite spin' in each orbital, I was wondering how far this chain of relations could go. A1 and B1 being in one orbital both superpositioned, each one to a different orbital than the other one, like a chain of possibly superluminal 'information', well not really but more of an 'entanglement', like some chain stretching all around the atoms electrons?

And I wanted us to discuss electrons again :)
I'm afraid it was me taking us of the subject somewhat..
 

Offline Vern

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2072
    • View Profile
    • Photonics
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #78 on: 27/02/2010 19:07:07 »
Vern, there's plenty of experimental evidence to support superposition.  The two slit experiment with electrons, for example.  The electron has to be described as passing through both slits in order for an interference pattern to emerge.
That only means that there is something wrong with our concept of what an electron is. I can easily describe an electron that will behave that way and there is no experiment that can show that the electron so described is not reality.
 

Offline PhysBang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 588
  • Thanked: 14 times
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #79 on: 27/02/2010 20:27:12 »
Are you saying that you can reproduce the two-slit experiment with an electron without superposition?
 

Offline Vern

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2072
    • View Profile
    • Photonics
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #80 on: 27/02/2010 20:48:58 »
Yes. When I am allowed to describe the electron.

Edit: It works with an electron but it is easier to understand in terms of a photon. This photon consists only of changing electric and magnetic fields. The fields saturate at two points, one positive and one negative. The fields around the points drive the points through space. Interaction is more likely to occur near the points of saturation.

The fields go through all slits and determine where the points go.
« Last Edit: 27/02/2010 20:57:08 by Vern »
 

Offline JP

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3366
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #81 on: 28/02/2010 02:57:36 »
Vern, can you show the mathematics of exactly how it produces a 2-slit interference pattern for an electron?  An argument using words isn't sufficient, since there are plenty of arguments that can't be backed up with quantitative predictions.

Edit: I know you had a thread in new theories proposing this model, too, so if you just want to link to the post in that thread where you cover the mathematics, that's fine too.
 

Offline Vern

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2072
    • View Profile
    • Photonics
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #82 on: 28/02/2010 11:20:15 »
The question is too important to relegate it to an obscure section. I did explain it in New Theories. But there is another question that we should be able to explore in a forum that deals with settled reality. (not settled theory)

Can we describe an electron that will behave as they are observed to behave in double slit experiments without resorting to superposition (new) theory?

The answer is yes. The maths are Maxwell's equations as they apply to adjacent points in space as Lorentz suggested.


Neutron Model from New Theories.
« Last Edit: 28/02/2010 11:28:24 by Vern »
 

Offline JP

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3366
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #83 on: 28/02/2010 13:54:06 »
The answer is yes. The maths are Maxwell's equations as they apply to adjacent points in space as Lorentz suggested.

Can you show actual mathematics supporting that?  I'm very familiar with Maxwell's equations, but I can't see how you get from them to explaining the electron fully.
 

Offline Farsight

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #84 on: 28/02/2010 16:55:41 »
For the record, I read Vern and associated material including http://photontheory.com/Kemp/Kemp.html in 2007 after reading material by other authors, and produced a "synthesis" that turned out to have a lesser contribution from me than I originally thought. Whilst I use somewhat different language, for example talking about geometry and a single electromagnetic field, I share Vern's sentiment. I agree with his statement The electron is comprised of one photon trapped in a resonant pattern spinning at the speed of light. Whatever your opinion on Vern's particular details or the adequacy of the mathematics, don't forget the evidence of pair production and annihilation along with angular momentum and magnetic moment. The bottom line is this: what else can the electron be?

 

Offline PhysBang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 588
  • Thanked: 14 times
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #85 on: 28/02/2010 17:33:45 »
Whatever your opinion on Vern's particular details or the adequacy of the mathematics, don't forget the evidence of pair production and annihilation along with angular momentum and magnetic moment. The bottom line is this: what else can the electron be?
But, of course, we must also remember that you have never provided any details about this magic process of yours, details that you alternately say are either simple or tricky. There is no choice but to conclude that you really have no complete theory and no evidence.

As it is now, an electron is an electron. If one wants to say otherwise, one has to demonstrate how saying otherwise actually captures the facts about the measured behaviour of electrons.
 

Offline JP

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3366
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #86 on: 01/03/2010 02:30:11 »
The bottom line is this: what else can the electron be?

If you insist on knowing what an electron is made of, I'd say the most plausible answer is in using string theory.  Unlike the electron-as-photon models described here, string theory has mathematical details that quantitatively describe the electron and match current theories and also provide testable (albeit not in the foreseeable future) properties beyond the current models.
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 11978
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #87 on: 01/03/2010 08:26:14 »
JP, what testable qualities are you speaking of?
Like how the spin comes to be?

And what are the ideas for testing it?
Even if we can't do it now.
 

Offline JP

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3366
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #88 on: 01/03/2010 09:02:47 »
As I understand it, spin in string theory has to do with ways in which the strings (which make up the particles) can rotate.  It is apparently a mathematically rigorous theory that does predict all the properties of the electron and other particles, although I don't understand it well enough to give you details. 

The problem is that it's not currently directly testable.  The smaller the object you want to look at, the more energy you need to do so.  The problem with strings is that they're so tiny, that no foreseeable experiment that I'm aware of will have enough energy to be able to see them.  There might be some signs of them at the LHC, but nothing to directly "see" strings.
 

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 11978
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #89 on: 01/03/2010 11:08:55 »
Okay :)
Good enough. Now for a new headache of mine
Electrons fundamental properties  Yep, it has a mass..

But in graphene you will apparently find 'Massless Dirac Fermions' aka, as I understands it, massless electrons? 

Superpositioned too?
 

Offline Robro

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #90 on: 01/03/2010 17:36:34 »
Whatever your opinion on Vern's particular details or the adequacy of the mathematics, don't forget the evidence of pair production and annihilation along with angular momentum and magnetic moment. The bottom line is this: what else can the electron be?
But, of course, we must also remember that you have never provided any details about this magic process of yours, details that you alternately say are either simple or tricky. There is no choice but to conclude that you really have no complete theory and no evidence.

As it is now, an electron is an electron. If one wants to say otherwise, one has to demonstrate how saying otherwise actually captures the facts about the measured behaviour of electrons.
Please see the link above to Vern's published works, pay special attention to the part where it describes, in detail, the mathematical relationship of a photon with certain frequency to the electron. Use the yellow buttons at the top to navigate through the pages. Very interesting.
« Last Edit: 01/03/2010 17:46:35 by Robro »
 

Offline Farsight

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #91 on: 01/03/2010 23:52:38 »
PhysBang: you still don't seem to have picked up on the fact that evidence isn't in mathematics, it's experimental.

Robro: nature's evidence is enough for me. It outweighs everything else. 

JP: quite. There is no evidence that the world is made of tiny vibrating strings, and no associated predictions. However, there is the undeniable evidence of pair production and annihilation. There's also Does the Inertia of a Body Depend upon it Energy content? where Einstein says If a body gives off the energy L in the form of radiation, its mass diminishes by L/c. Go back to Newton and he says Are not gross bodies and light convertible into one another?. So I'll stick with observable evidence and go with Newton and Einstein and E=mc.

 

Offline PhysBang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 588
  • Thanked: 14 times
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #92 on: 02/03/2010 00:06:01 »
PhysBang: you still don't seem to have picked up on the fact that evidence isn't in mathematics, it's experimental.
No, I have asked you repeatedly to show how your theories match even one experiment. You have never provided such a detail. Thus you fail to meet any standard of experiment. You constantly change your tune and shuffle around. In this thread, we have seen ample evidence of how you desperately try to avoid having to answer any direct question about experiment. I asked you about the Stern-Gerlach device experiments, the main experiment about electron rotation and, in between saying that it was easy for you and then that it was tricky, you failed to say anything about experiment.
Quote
Go back to Newton and he says Are not gross bodies and light convertible into one another?.
Stop quoting Newton's alchemical ramblings and actually address an experiment. You'll soon see that your theory gets nowhere and you'll have a lot more time on your hands.
 

Offline JP

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3366
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #93 on: 02/03/2010 00:28:51 »
This thread is going in circles, so I'm going to go ahead and lock it.  I think the relevant points have been discussed in plenty of detail. 
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Do electrons rotate?
« Reply #93 on: 02/03/2010 00:28:51 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums