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Offline norcalclimber

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« Reply #25 on: 06/04/2010 06:55:17 »
[There is always an inherent random nature, this allows diversity.  But there is a separate level of control as well, which keeps a population stable enough to continue to reproduce.  I have no idea how exactly this control is exerted, how it gathers information, or how it makes choices.  But in the past 200 or so years of research, we have repeatedly seen that life is capable of evolving far more rapidly than we previously thought.  We have also seen that even significant phenotypical changes can occur without even changing the DNA.  We are discovering that what we used to think was "junk DNA" is actually critical.


These are good questions. However, if you are going to assert that these are scientifically proven theories, you really need to provide some support for them. Failing that, it's really just your opinion. Nothing wrong with having an opinion of course, but you really should try to distinguish between the two.

TNS tries to keep things upbeat and lighthearted. Science does not have to be boring, but TNS is also very interested in supporting proven scientific theory and all the incredibly painstaking research that goes along with it.

TNS also welcomes new theories too, which is why TNS has a forum for new theories.

Here is some evidence which shows why "junk" DNA is not actually junk:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071025112059.htm
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #26 on: 06/04/2010 20:27:25 »

Here is some evidence which shows why "junk" DNA is not actually junk:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071025112059.htm

No disagreement there, but I don't understand how that might lead one to conclude that there was an intelligent designer.
 

Offline norcalclimber

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« Reply #27 on: 06/04/2010 21:39:21 »

Here is some evidence which shows why "junk" DNA is not actually junk:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071025112059.htm

No disagreement there, but I don't understand how that might lead one to conclude that there was an intelligent designer.

I completely agree that it wouldn't lead one to conclude there was an intelligent designer.  The evidence in support of an organism "designing" itself I posted on the topic where I asked if "intelligent design" evolved.  But as I had made the statement about junk DNA on this topic I thought I should answer that here.
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #28 on: 06/04/2010 23:46:39 »
Ah. OK - Thanks!
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #29 on: 30/04/2010 20:38:29 »
............... We are discovering that what we used to think was "junk DNA" is actually critical.

These are good questions. However, if you are going to assert that these are scientifically proven theories, you really need to provide some support for them. Failing that, it's really just your opinion. Nothing wrong with having an opinion of course, but you really should try to distinguish between the two.

TNS tries to keep things upbeat and lighthearted. Science does not have to be boring, but TNS is also very interested in supporting proven scientific theory and all the incredibly painstaking research that goes along with it.

please read
http://www.murdoch.edu.au/News/Shaking-up-the-theory-of-evolution/

https://www-pls.llnl.gov/?url=science_and_technology-life_sciences-junk_dna

Evidence is now being accumulated which indicates that much or most of this DNA may not be junk, but critical for life itself.

This view must be evaluated in light of the fact that the history of science is replete with now discarded theories that once supported Darwinism but increasing knowledge has rendered obsolete.  Examples include vestigial organs

New research is beginning to overturn the view that most of the genome has no function.

 
Quote from: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18680-junk-dna-gets-credit-for-making-us-who-we-are.html
In recent years, researchers have recognised that non-coding DNA, which makes up about 98 per cent of the human genome, plays a critical role in determining whether genes are active or not and how much of a particular protein gets churned out.

Now, two teams have revealed dramatic differences between the non-coding DNA of people whose genes are 99 per cent the same. "We largely have the same sets of genes. It's just how they're regulated that makes them different," says Michael Snyder, a geneticist at Stanford University in California.....
....Kelly Frazer, a genomicist at the University of California, San Diego, says the new studies help explain why many common mutations linked to diseases are located so far from any gene. For instance, a certain mutation that increases the risk of heart attack by 60 per cent is not close to a gene.

But that's just the tip of the iceberg, Frazer says. By homing in on non-coding DNA, researchers should begin to unravel what truly makes people different. "I think these two papers are the beginning of a field that's going to be growing rapidly in the next few years," she says.

Journal references: Science, DOIs: 10.1126/science.1184655 and 10.1126/science.1183621
« Last Edit: 04/05/2010 20:14:18 by echochartruse »
 

Offline RD

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« Reply #30 on: 30/04/2010 21:20:04 »
...  Examples include vestigial organs (the claim that in humans


Echochartruse's posts remind me of Asyncritus's
« Last Edit: 30/04/2010 21:27:32 by RD »
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #31 on: 30/04/2010 22:00:22 »
............... We are discovering that what we used to think was "junk DNA" is actually critical.

These are good questions. However, if you are going to assert that these are scientifically proven theories, you really need to provide some support for them. Failing that, it's really just your opinion. Nothing wrong with having an opinion of course, but you really should try to distinguish between the two.

TNS tries to keep things upbeat and lighthearted. Science does not have to be boring, but TNS is also very interested in supporting proven scientific theory and all the incredibly painstaking research that goes along with it.

please read
http://www.murdoch.edu.au/News/Shaking-up-the-theory-of-evolution/

https://www-pls.llnl.gov/?url=science_and_technology-life_sciences-junk_dna

Evidence is now being accumulated which indicates that much or most of this DNA may not be junk, but critical for life itself.

This view must be evaluated in light of the fact that the history of science is replete with now discarded theories that once supported Darwinism but increasing knowledge has rendered obsolete.  Examples include vestigial organs (the claim that in humans

New research is beginning to overturn the view that most of the genome has no function.

 
Quote from: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18680-junk-dna-gets-credit-for-making-us-who-we-are.html
In recent years, researchers have recognised that non-coding DNA, which makes up about 98 per cent of the human genome, plays a critical role in determining whether genes are active or not and how much of a particular protein gets churned out.

Now, two teams have revealed dramatic differences between the non-coding DNA of people whose genes are 99 per cent the same. "We largely have the same sets of genes. It's just how they're regulated that makes them different," says Michael Snyder, a geneticist at Stanford University in California.....
....Kelly Frazer, a genomicist at the University of California, San Diego, says the new studies help explain why many common mutations linked to diseases are located so far from any gene. For instance, a certain mutation that increases the risk of heart attack by 60 per cent is not close to a gene.

But that's just the tip of the iceberg, Frazer says. By homing in on non-coding DNA, researchers should begin to unravel what truly makes people different. "I think these two papers are the beginning of a field that's going to be growing rapidly in the next few years," she says.

Journal references: Science, DOIs: 10.1126/science.1184655 and 10.1126/science.1183621

Thanks for the links Echo.

It makes sense that so caled junk DNA is not really junk. Presumably there is an energy cost associated with DNA replication. Nature is pretty good at eliminating waste, so would it allow something to persist that serves no purpose?
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #32 on: 04/05/2010 19:51:30 »
...  Examples include vestigial organs (the claim that in humans


Echochartruse's posts remind me of Asyncritus's

What did you actually want to say?..

if you would like me to expand on vestigial organs then you should first read these links.
http://isc.temple.edu/marino/embryology/parch98/parchdev.htm
http://www.embryology.ch/anglais/sdigestive/gesicht07.html#defpharynx34.

Science is evolving, what we thought was absolute and correct yesterday can be proved incorrect today.

Science has found that we dont have gills, that our appendix is usefull and so on.
That junk DNA is not junk.

If we sit on our theories and hold them in concrete, then science will stagnate.
« Last Edit: 04/05/2010 20:11:43 by echochartruse »
 

Offline RD

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« Reply #33 on: 04/05/2010 20:13:53 »
...  Examples include vestigial organs (the claim that in humans


Echochartruse's posts remind me of Asyncritus's


What did you actually want to say?

I was just pointing out that arguments very similar to your own had been put forward by a chap called Asyncritus in this thread.
« Last Edit: 04/05/2010 20:16:05 by RD »
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #34 on: 04/05/2010 20:41:38 »
I was just pointing out that arguments very similar to your own had been put forward by a chap called Asyncritus in this thread.

After reading his thread, I will agree with you. But I am certain there are more than one other person who is not bound in their thinking becasue of a theory that was once accepted.

As we see happening today, proof is found to contradict what we had accepted once as scientific fact and the more we question, the more we explore and the more we come to realise and discover the absolute truth.

Many decades ago in year 10 I constantly argued with my science teacher and only now am I able to prove that the science fact I was taught, that I could not accept, has now been disproved.
No one knows all the answers but that should not stop us from asking the questions.

Life on earth did not happen by chance, I don't believe anything does.
Science's explaination for life is that "it just happened" Randomly without reason.
Sorry I cant accept that either for the fact it is not very scientific.
« Last Edit: 04/05/2010 20:49:45 by echochartruse »
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #35 on: 04/05/2010 21:00:55 »
I just read more of Asyncritus's posts and I would just like to add that even though I am not a religious person at all and I don't think there is a man called God that had a child called Jesus or any version of that story. I do actually believe that within every living thing on earth in our universe, there holds the key to its individual existence, which is much greater, more complex than "Random"
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #36 on: 04/05/2010 21:09:17 »
now am I able to prove that the science fact I was taught, that I could not accept, has now been disproved.

Echo, what science do you believe has been disproved?
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #37 on: 04/05/2010 21:52:37 »
If we sit on our theories and hold them in concrete, then science will stagnate.

Life on earth did not happen by chance, I don't believe anything does.

Sitting on that hypothesis, are you?  Lots of things happen by chance, why would you have a problem with that?

At no point have we discussed the origins of life here.  Random mutation is merely one of the sources for variation, and evolution is far from random.  We've known for ages that "Junk" DNA is not just junk, we know transposons are important for organising the genome.
 

Offline RD

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« Reply #38 on: 04/05/2010 22:34:34 »
Science's explaination for life is that "it just happened" Randomly without reason.

There was/is a reason for all the various forms of life : natural selection.


... more complex than "Random"

Complexity is not proof of design ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blind_Watchmaker
« Last Edit: 04/05/2010 22:47:09 by RD »
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #39 on: 05/05/2010 23:27:28 »
Definition RANDOM:- lacking any definite plan or order or purpose; governed by or depending on chance; "a random choice"

There was/is a reason for all the various forms of life : natural selection.

So we both agree it is not RANDOM


Sitting on that hypothesis, are you?  Lots of things happen by chance, why would you have a problem with that?

When someone formulates a hypothesis, he or she does so with the intention of testing it, just because a hypothesis is wrong does not necessarily mean that it is able to be tested at that point in time, just that enough information isn't available at that time.

I suppose I could be a sheep and just follow without questioning, believe what I am told, but that is not science.
Randomness, by chance, is surprisingly rare.

Quote from: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100414134542.htm
"Classical physics simply does not permit genuine randomness in the strict sense," says JQI Fellow Chris Monroe, who led the experimental team. "That is, the outcome of any classical physical process can ultimately be determined with enough information about initial conditions.

At no point have we discussed the origins of life here.

Correct that is not what we are discussing here.

I was just pointing out that arguments very similar to your own had been put forward by a chap called Asyncritus in this thread.
I was just defending myself as Asyncritus seems to have religious overtones.

Random mutation is merely one of the sources for variation, and evolution is far from random.


Correct then we must all agree that evolution is not RANDOM.

We've known for ages that "Junk" DNA is not just junk, we know transposons are important for organising the genome.


Unfortunately some of us have lived longer than ages and were taught differently in school.

Echo, what science do you believe has been disproved?

I was taught that there is junk DNA left over from our evolution through various species that is no longer need but still exists.

That brown eyes will always be dominant in offspring where one parent has brown and the other say blue eyes.

That we as a foetus have gills and our appendix has no use.

A mutation is a permanent change in the DNA sequence of a gene. Please tell me, is any change in DNA sequence permanent? If so wouldn’t this halt evolution?

I was told that evolution is not determined by our environment but ‘random mutation’

Does everyone here believe that evolution is based on random mutation?


« Last Edit: 05/05/2010 23:29:52 by echochartruse »
 

Offline RD

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« Reply #40 on: 06/05/2010 00:02:13 »
Definition RANDOM:- lacking any definite plan or order or purpose; governed by or depending on chance; "a random choice"

There was/is a reason for all the various forms of life : natural selection.

So we both agree it is not RANDOM

The changes were/are random,
 the prevailing environment selected for those random changes which were beneficial, a.k.a. natural selection.
 No teleology, No design.
« Last Edit: 06/05/2010 00:07:12 by RD »
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #41 on: 06/05/2010 00:17:03 »
Complexity is not proof of design ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blind_Watchmaker

Quote from: http://www.science.org.au/nova/094/094key.htm
What is a Complex System?
It's a revolution because working with complex systems goes against traditional science practice. Until now, scientists have spent a lot of time breaking things down into ever smaller component parts – known as reductionism – to understand how each part works in isolation of other parts, only to find that this does not help to understand how the whole system works together...............Although there are a wide variety of systems that are complex, they all have two elements in common. They all exhibit emergence and self organisation.

self organisation!
« Last Edit: 06/05/2010 00:19:18 by echochartruse »
 

Offline RD

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« Reply #42 on: 06/05/2010 00:46:59 »
Complexity is not proof of design ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blind_Watchmaker

Quote from: http://www.science.org.au/nova/094/094key.htm
What is a Complex System?
It's a revolution because working with complex systems goes against traditional science practice. Until now, scientists have spent a lot of time breaking things down into ever smaller component parts – known as reductionism – to understand how each part works in isolation of other parts, only to find that this does not help to understand how the whole system works together...............Although there are a wide variety of systems that are complex, they all have two elements in common. They all exhibit emergence and self organisation.

self organisation!

Are you suggesting self organization is proof of intelligence or an intelligent designer ?.

Crystals self-organise but they are not intelligent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystallization#Crystallization_in_nature

Computer automata self-organise but they are not intelligent,
(their complex stable patterns emerge from elements repeatedly following very simple rules).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_automaton
« Last Edit: 06/05/2010 00:55:04 by RD »
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #43 on: 06/05/2010 02:51:52 »


Are you suggesting self organization is proof of intelligence or an intelligent designer ?.

Crystals self-organise but they are not intelligent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystallization#Crystallization_in_nature

Computer automata self-organise but they are not intelligent,
(their complex stable patterns emerge from elements repeatedly following very simple rules).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_automaton

Truthfully we all have limited ability to see how evolution works but it doesn't happen over vast periods of time, like we were taught at school. I doubt that anything is truely random, its just that we haven't found the answers yet.

Evolution depends on environment, time and networking, (The ability to be influenced or not by whats around.). Yes even crystals network to grow.
How evolution knows to depend on nature time and networking is the question.
My opinion is that it is not scientific to think "it just happens".

DNA networks with RNA to form life. How does it know to network? What compels it to do it?
What compels them to network and form life? Obviously we just haven't found the answers yet.

 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #44 on: 06/05/2010 08:23:48 »

Truthfully we all have limited ability to see how evolution works but it doesn't happen over vast periods of time, like we were taught at school. I doubt that anything is truely random, its just that we haven't found the answers yet.

Evolution depends on environment, time and networking, (The ability to be influenced or not by whats around.). Yes even crystals network to grow.
How evolution knows to depend on nature time and networking is the question.
Evolution doesn't know anything, so that's not a useful question.
 
Quote
My opinion is that it is not scientific to think "it just happens".

DNA networks with RNA to form life. How does it know to network? What compels it to do it?
What compels them to network and form life? Obviously we just haven't found the answers yet.
Or you're asking the wrong questions. Nothing "compels" chemistry to happen. And what's so wrong in accepting that sometimes things happen without a reason?
 

Offline norcalclimber

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« Reply #45 on: 06/05/2010 16:34:22 »

Truthfully we all have limited ability to see how evolution works but it doesn't happen over vast periods of time, like we were taught at school. I doubt that anything is truely random, its just that we haven't found the answers yet.

Evolution depends on environment, time and networking, (The ability to be influenced or not by whats around.). Yes even crystals network to grow.
How evolution knows to depend on nature time and networking is the question.
Evolution doesn't know anything, so that's not a useful question.
 
Quote
My opinion is that it is not scientific to think "it just happens".

DNA networks with RNA to form life. How does it know to network? What compels it to do it?
What compels them to network and form life? Obviously we just haven't found the answers yet.
Or you're asking the wrong questions. Nothing "compels" chemistry to happen. And what's so wrong in accepting that sometimes things happen without a reason?

I agree with BenV here, I think lots of random things happen all the time.  I think that, even if our recent evolution may have had some control exerted on it by the life forms evolving, whether life occurs somewhere is random to some extent.  Actually it seems to me that if there is a god or creator, then random chance is actually very important to it. 

Let's look at the question of god logically real quick:

If there is a creator, and it created the universe, then we should be able to know the will of god simply by looking at its creation.  What I see is a whole bunch of laws of physics, but absolutely no evidence of direct manipulation.  This seems to say to me that if there is a creator, then it simply created everything and then let whatever could happen, happen.  This would mean that life evolving in the universe was not random, but the specific place it evolves is random.  This also implies that humans really aren't very special overall, and I agree with that personally.

I personally do not believe in a conscious creator.... I wouldn't be surprised if there was a "force" of sorts which causes things like what we call the universe to be created, but I don't think there is any evidence of a God which is watching over us and cares what we do, which is what "intelligent design" typically refers to.
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #46 on: 06/05/2010 17:11:53 »

I agree with BenV here, I think lots of random things happen all the time. 

Evolution Is Deterministic, Not Random, Biologists Conclude From Multi-Species Study
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071119123929.htm

Sorry I have to disagree

Even when "random / chance" can be explained, we still prefer to use the word. Its just getting our head around it.

How Evolution Learns From Past Environments To Adapt To New Environments
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081107071822.htm

Distribution Of Creatures Great And Small Can Be Predicted Mathematically
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080717174939.htm

« Last Edit: 06/05/2010 17:42:54 by echochartruse »
 

Offline norcalclimber

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« Reply #47 on: 06/05/2010 17:51:00 »

I agree with BenV here, I think lots of random things happen all the time. 

Evolution Is Deterministic, Not Random, Biologists Conclude From Multi-Species Study
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071119123929.htm

Sorry I have to disagree

Even when "random / chance" can be explained, we still prefer to use the word. Its just getting our head around it.

How Evolution Learns From Past Environments To Adapt To New Environments
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081107071822.htm

Distribution Of Creatures Great And Small Can Be Predicted Mathematically
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080717174939.htm



Now we're talking about modern evolution again though, and here is where I agree that modern evolution is not random.  The thing is, that's only the past 750 million years or so.  Life looks to have been on Earth for about 4.4 billion years, and random may have certainly ruled the day for the first 3.5 billion years of evolution.

I agree that many things which have appeared random are not actually, but there is a big step between that and saying that nothing is random.  I think free will is extremely important, and free will provides a certain degree of random inherent in everything, IMHO.
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #48 on: 06/05/2010 18:39:14 »
There was/is a reason for all the various forms of life : natural selection.
Natural Selection Not The Only Process That Drives Evolution?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090126203207.htm
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #49 on: 06/05/2010 19:16:49 »

Now we're talking about modern evolution.........


Galaxy Formation Not Random, Says Astronomer
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/02/010226070416.htm
 

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