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Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #50 on: 06/05/2010 19:24:28 »
I think free will is extremely important, and free will provides a certain degree of random inherent in everything, IMHO.

Quote from: Do Fruit Flies Have Free Will? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070516071806.htm
"When scientists observe animals responding differently even to the same external stimuli, they attribute this variability to random errors in a complex brain." Using a combination of automated behavior recording and sophisticated mathematical analyses, the international team of researchers showed for the first time that such variability cannot be due to simple random events but is generated spontaneously and non-randomly by the brain. These results caught computer scientist and lead author Alexander Maye from the University of Hamburg by surprise:
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #51 on: 07/05/2010 08:53:47 »
Echo - we're not saying that evolution is random, but that mutation, one of the sources for variation that evolution can act upon, is.

I'm still not sure I understand your point of view on this - I'm don't know what you think is true, or what you're trying to convince us of.

Random mutation is one aspect of non-random evolution, there are other aspects but there is no evidence of 'design'.  Epigenetic factors can influence evolution, but as of yet the evidence seems to be that they alter the genome in response to environmental factors, and so are another aspect of natural selection.
 

Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #52 on: 08/05/2010 13:06:11 »
Echo

I have read through some of the original academic articles upon which the sciencedaily.com posts are based upon.  Perhaps not surprisingly for a piece of journalism rather than an academic article they tend to be more sensationalist and less restrained.  Whilst I am not an expert, from the articles I have read, sciencedaily.com has extrapolated quite an extended wide-ranging headline from focussed and precise observations; whilst this can be correct it can also be misleading.

I am sure that someone so obviously interested and well-informed as yourself could gain a great deal from engaging with the original article - they are fasciniating and accessible (to a minor extent) to even an amateur such as myself.  I don't think they bear out your argument to the extent that the posts from sciencedaily.com might imply.

Fascinating argument.

Matthew

if you are unsure how to get free copies of such academic articles you can try this method to see if one exists on the internet.  Search on google scholar (under 'more' on google homepage) for the lead author and a few key words (ie Karin Kiontke vulva) - then click on All 11 versions.  There is often a version that provides pdf link (on rhs of screen) to the article.
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #53 on: 11/05/2010 05:56:49 »
Echo - we're not saying that evolution is random, but that mutation, one of the sources for variation that evolution can act upon, is.

--"random mutation over vast periods of time."

Today we agree evolution happens constantly throughout ages, what we do today effects our generations genome.

Protein coding genes of humans and chimpanzees are about 99 percent the same so therefore it is how the genes are regulated, turned on and off that makes us different.

Random mutation is one aspect of non-random evolution,

What type of Zen is this?
We get Cosmos out of chaos?
Random mutation just does not happen, why is science trying to prove "Random Mutation"?

As the genomes of various organisms became known, it turned out that complex and simple organisms differ less than anticipated in the sizes and makeup of their genomes; complexity of an organism is now believed to be reflected mainly in the manner in which expression is regulated.

A 'mutation' is linked to disease and cancer.
This is actually a misregulation of genes or fluctuations in genes giving choice for one of exact same genes in the same environment to alter. Why the fluctuation, we dont know yet but I'm sure it's not random,

Proteins read DNA sequence from beginning to end and translate this information in turn into new protein, which are essentially molecules that build the cells structure and control biochemical processes.  The environment, time and gene/protein networking all work together and results in adaptation/evolution.

Bacteria, fungi and parasites, unlike viruses, appear to have allowed the introduction of misregulations in the genes of some proteins of the innate immunity system, thus enabling greater genetic variability. In some cases, these misregulations may even constitute an advantage, giving the host improved resistance to infectious diseases.

The only way I see a misregulation of a gene effectivily assisting evolution is in a situation as my example of the Tassie Devils where prior to the TDFT disease they had clone type DNA, no variation in their geneome. A mutation/misregulation of genes: (cancer), occured due to the environment. This caused the Tassie Devils to breed at a much earlier age for their own survival. Now scientists find, their genes have diversified to regulate to combat the cancer in the near future.

mutation/misregulation of genes is not the only force of evolution, genes can be turned on and off, shuffled, co operate together, network to evolve.

The Tasmainina Devil's ability to know to breed earlier to have offspring that could contain a regulated gene to survive the cancer is one of the mechanisms in their evolution, its not random but for a purpose. How do they know to do this?
However it appears intelligent to me, not random.






 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #54 on: 11/05/2010 07:57:41 »
Echo - we're not saying that evolution is random, but that mutation, one of the sources for variation that evolution can act upon, is.

--"random mutation over vast periods of time."

Today we agree evolution happens constantly throughout ages, what we do today effects our generations genome.

Protein coding genes of humans and chimpanzees are about 99 percent the same so therefore it is how the genes are regulated, turned on and off that makes us different.

Random mutation is one aspect of non-random evolution,

What type of Zen is this?
We get Cosmos out of chaos?
Random mutation just does not happen, why is science trying to prove "Random Mutation"?

Science isn't trying to prove random mutation, as it's just a fact that mutations occur at random throughout the genome during cell divisions.  There's no getting away from the fact that random mutation is one source of variation on which evolution can act.

I'm not sure what you think this has to do with DFTD, but they don't "know" that mating earlier will help. The disease must be altering their population structure in some way, and this means they are mating earlier.

Does anyone know the 'normal' mating patterns for Tasmanian devils? Is it a hareem structure? Do the males fight for mating access?
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #55 on: 11/05/2010 08:00:15 »

Protein coding genes of humans and chimpanzees are about 99 percent the same so therefore it is how the genes are regulated, turned on and off that makes us different.


I don't think that's quite right.

Humans and chimpanzees are very similar in very many respects. I think the small differences between our genomes account for the small differences between chimpanzees and humans.

 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #56 on: 12/05/2010 01:27:19 »
Science isn't trying to prove random mutation, as it's just a fact that mutations occur at random throughout the genome during cell divisions.  There's no getting away from the fact that random mutation is one source of variation on which evolution can act.

"In all organisms, genes get duplicated every so often, for reasons we don't fully understand," said Ariel Fernandez, professor of bioengineering at Rice University. "It is a coping mechanism,

RANDOM = lacking any definite plan or order or purpose;
Evolution is not random just that we don't fully understand yet.

Quote from: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091203132146.htm
...the supposedly random shuffling of large chunks of DNA that frequently lead to cancer -- aren't so random after all...

Quote from:  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100304121546.htm
Why Our Peripheral Vision May Not Be as Random as We Think

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator
A pseudorandom number generator (PRNG), also known as a deterministic random bit generator (DRBG)[1], is an algorithm for generating a sequence of numbers that approximates the properties of random numbers. The sequence is not truly random in that it is completely determined by a relatively small set of initial values, called the PRNG's state.

NOT RANDOM - what I am arguing is that RANDOM is not scientific. Work carried out on disease has found that gene ‘mutation’ is not random. Not fully understood YET but definitely not random.

In my point of view if it was entirely random then there must be a greater force controlling it and this gives way to creation.

MUTATION is where a cell has been misregulated, say.. duplicated and causes a disease. Regulated is when genes have been turned on or off, shuffled or rearranged they are not mutated.

2 identical twins can have the same DNA exactly. Due to gene regulation or misregulation they differ. Misregulation causes disease, sickness and regulation distinguishes individuality.

RANDOM MUTATION as you speak and in our text books is old hat and has been proven to be not random. Our DNA is constantly changing due to environment, time and networking. Unfortunately science has not found another word for the incorrect word Random and it gets used too much when things are not at all random and/or can't be explained yet.

I'm not sure what you think this has to do with DFTD, but they don't "know" that mating earlier will help. The disease must be altering their population structure in some way, and this means they are mating earlier.
Does anyone know the 'normal' mating patterns for Tasmanian devils? Is it a hareem structure? Do the males fight for mating access?
Devils are solitary animals with the females having more contact with each other than males, they are nocturnal and mate underground.  Said to start breeding in their second year. The young are weaned at 5-6 months. Males usually breed with more than one female and it has been observed that female Devils are very selective with whom they breed with. Females choose their mate.The cancer will kill around 3 months after contracting.
http://www.devilsonverandah.com.au/tasmanian_devil_breeding.htm
"To our knowledge, this is the first known case of infectious disease leading to increased early reproduction in a mammal," they wrote in the latest issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.


Protein coding genes of humans and chimpanzees are about 99 percent the same so therefore it is how the genes are regulated, turned on and off that makes us different.


I don't think that's quite right.

Humans and chimpanzees are very similar in very many respects. I think the small differences between our genomes account for the small differences between chimpanzees and humans.


Quote from: http://www.broadinstitute.org/news/263
1.   The chimpanzee and human genomes are strikingly similar and encode very similar proteins. The DNA sequence that can be directly compared between the two genomes is almost 99 percent identical. When DNA insertions and deletions are taken into account, humans and chimpanzees still share 96 percent sequence identity.
Biologically, DNA is the common language of every living thing. By opening up the cells of any living thing - bacteria, plants, moulds or ourselves - we find DNA controlling every activity. A close look at DNA shows that humans are remarkably similar to the rest of the living world - sharing about 98% of our DNA with chimpanzees.
While the DNA of almost all organisms is distinct in its fine detail, the overall structure of the DNA found in every living organism is the same.
However each species has its own characteristics and among humans only identical twins share the same DNA.
Even the DNA of plants is similar to that of humans. We share 60% of our DNA with a banana.

OK so from 96-99% depending which science journal you read.

which indicates to me that DNA is same across the range depending on what is turned on or off, shuffled etc.

Exactly why, how DNA knows to turn on and off, shuffle, rearrange is amazing and not random. Why the Tassie Devils are breeding earlier for their survival is amazing, not random but hopefully their earlier breeding will contribute to their offspring being able to reshuffle their genes to cope with the disease.


 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #57 on: 12/05/2010 05:40:59 »
Quote from: http://www.broadinstitute.org/news/263
1.   The chimpanzee and human genomes are strikingly similar and encode very similar proteins. The DNA sequence that can be directly compared between the two genomes is almost 99 percent identical. When DNA insertions and deletions are taken into account, humans and chimpanzees still share 96 percent sequence identity.
Biologically, DNA is the common language of every living thing. By opening up the cells of any living thing - bacteria, plants, moulds or ourselves - we find DNA controlling every activity. A close look at DNA shows that humans are remarkably similar to the rest of the living world - sharing about 98% of our DNA with chimpanzees.
While the DNA of almost all organisms is distinct in its fine detail, the overall structure of the DNA found in every living organism is the same.
However each species has its own characteristics and among humans only identical twins share the same DNA.
Even the DNA of plants is similar to that of humans. We share 60% of our DNA with a banana.

OK so from 96-99% depending which science journal you read.

which indicates to me that DNA is same across the range depending on what is turned on or off, shuffled etc.


Why would it have to? Humans are very closely related to chimpanzees, so it's hardly surprising that our genomes are very similar. While a 1% difference does not sound like much, relative to the total genome it still represents a colossal amount of information. I would think it's quite sufficient to account for the minor differences between the two species.
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #58 on: 12/05/2010 08:42:37 »
Echo, you're still mixing two different aspects. Mutations happen in DNA with no discernable pattern - they are random.

With the devils, it sounds like DFTD is changing selection pressures. If females chose a mate they may be more likely to do so with a male that lacks a facial tumour. You're right, this is not random, but you seem to think that someone said it is.
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #59 on: 13/05/2010 02:29:20 »
Thus, a more interesting issue for discussion is "why does the non-randomness of mutation keep getting ignored?".

Read more: Are mutations truly random? - The Scientist - Magazine of the Life Sciences http://www.the-scientist.com/blog/display/56267/#ixzz0nlPErxwC

Another reason that a scientific finding gets ignored is that it runs counter to deeply entrenched doctrines or habits of thought. In this case, there are so many scientists devoted to the Darwinian catechism that mutation is "random" that they have continued to repeat this long after it was known to be untrue, and they will even change the definition of "random" to provide more wiggle room to continue saying that mutation is "random".

Read more: Are mutations truly random? - The Scientist - Magazine of the Life Sciences http://www.the-scientist.com/blog/display/56267/#ixzz0nlPYInUf

If the Tassie Devils new genetic ability to breed at a younger age is not random-, why not?
Why is mutation split between random and non random what makes it random what makes it non random?
If a fish decides to walk on the earth via random mutation, then you would suggest there is not a cause to do so? That it just happened of its own free will?

Why is it that only one type of fish was effected by random mutation which led to more random mutation to eventually evolve into human?

Are certain species more susceptible to randomness than others?

Mutations arise randomly with respect to selective advantage in the current environment.
I read this in a few scientific sites and books and find it very contradictory, … they choose randomly selective advantages,… clever things!

Evolution Is Deterministic, Not Random, Biologists Conclude From Multi-Species Study
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071119123929.htm

How Evolution Learns From Past Environments To Adapt To New Environments
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081107071822.htm

Distribution Of Creatures Great And Small Can Be Predicted Mathematically
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080717174939.htm
Galaxy Formation Not Random, Says Astronomer
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/02/010226070416.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070516071806.htm
and so on and so on

every action has an equal or opposite reaction, I believe nothing is random, it just takes time to prove and understand. By suggesting randomness in my perspective, suggests a greater force is in control, one that is above testing or proof.
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #60 on: 13/05/2010 04:09:21 »
I'll say it like this........

I don't think mutations are random but caused through effect.

Mutations are the effect of [random changes (by chance)].
These changes are not firstly initiated within the gene but through random causes whether they are related to inherited and/or acquired and/or other environmental conditions including time.

Therefore the mutation is not random at all. The mutation occurs deterministically through associated networking within genome, environment and time. (How, may/may not be proven yet)

Hey! I knew if the water supply to Tassie devils was going to be toxic, then how stupid would I be if I thought it wasn't going to effect them. (the toxin is the random part).

The gene change/mutation allowing them to breed earlier can/could be calculated, whether or not we know how yet. "with a discernable pattern".

The toxins gave them the chance.

The change in the gene is not random. 'random mutation'

Everything has a cause and effect. The genome just doesn't decide one day to choose a different path and mutate, without purpose or process for an unknown reason for the advantage of itself.

When we fully understand how genes are regulated then things may become more predictable and less 'random'
« Last Edit: 13/05/2010 04:42:44 by echochartruse »
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #61 on: 13/05/2010 08:15:41 »
I still don't understand you, echo. The Tasmanian devil example is completely irrelevant when discussing whether DNA mutates at random or not.

You still seem to want evolution and mutation to mean the same thing. They don't, and no one here is saying they do.

Again, random mutation is one of the sources of variety in DNA that non-random natural selection can act upon.
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #62 on: 17/05/2010 02:58:27 »
I still don't understand you, echo. The Tasmanian devil example is completely irrelevant when discussing whether DNA mutates at random or not.

You still seem to want evolution and mutation to mean the same thing. They don't, and no one here is saying they do.

Again, random mutation is one of the sources of variety in DNA that non-random natural selection can act upon.

I'm not saying mutation = evolution at all.

Random mutation is disease such as cancer. The cancer which is random mutation is allowing the devils to adapt genetically to survive by being able to genetically alter their genes so they can mature earlier and breed earlier. This in turn may or may not help their off spring to survive the Cancer. Though the cancer it self is evolving. Scientists hope that an immunity can be passed down to the offspring. Normally the devils breed at around 2 yrs of age now they are maturing earlier and breed at 1 yr old. This is the first recorded case.

Mutation sounds permanent but it is not. mutations are alterations/adaptations which can change.

Nothing is actually random, just that we have not found or discovered the process/cause/effect. Random would suggest a higher intelligence beyond our understanding.

The Tibetans have developed genes to help them live 14,000 feet above sea level or higher, where the atmosphere contains much less oxygen than at sea level, most Tibetans do not overproduce red blood cells and do not develop lung or brain complications.

'But the Tibetans have evolved genes that others living at similar elevations have not developed, according to Lynn B. Jorde, Ph.D., professor and chair of human genetics at the U of U School of Medicine and a senior author on the study.'


bold italic mine


This could be so for the devils which have a mechanism in place already after 10 years which enables them to breed earlier in hope to allow immunity to be passed on.



Quote from: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090126203207.htm
many of the genetic changes leading to human-specific characters may be the result of the fixation of harmful mutations.
« Last Edit: 17/05/2010 03:19:45 by echochartruse »
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #63 on: 17/05/2010 03:14:07 »
Quote from: Natural Selection Not The Only Process That Drives Evolution http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090126203207.htm
The researchers identified fast evolving human genes by comparing our genome with those of other primates. However, surprisingly, the patterns of molecular evolution in many of the genes they found did not contain signals of natural selection. Instead, their evidence suggests that a separate process known as BGC (biased gene conversion) has speeded up the rate of evolution in certain genes. This process increases the rate at which certain mutations spread through a population, regardless of whether they are beneficial or harmful.........This contrasts the traditional Darwinistic view that they are the result of natural selection in favour of adaptive mutations.

bold italics mine
« Last Edit: 17/05/2010 03:18:14 by echochartruse »
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #64 on: 17/05/2010 03:42:48 »
This process increases the rate at which certain mutations spread through a population, regardless of whether they are beneficial or harmful.........This contrasts the traditional Darwinistic view that they are the result of natural selection in favour of adaptive mutations.


As Darwin knew nothing about genetic mutation, describing this as "non-Darwanistic" strikes me as a heaviy biased editorial slant. All this appears to say is that mutations might occur more rapidly than previously though.
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #65 on: 17/05/2010 06:40:16 »
As Darwin knew nothing about genetic mutation, describing this as "non-Darwanistic" strikes me as a heaviy biased editorial slant. All this appears to say is that mutations might occur more rapidly than previously though.

Ok, instead of random mutation, think of it as we know it now as 'Genetic Mutation'
I would agree with that.

Please forget the word 'random' there is nothing random about it.

"Genetic adaptation by networking within the geneome, influenced by environment and time."
« Last Edit: 17/05/2010 06:43:29 by echochartruse »
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #66 on: 17/05/2010 07:54:15 »
Quote
Random mutation is disease such as cancer.

No it isn't. Random mutation is simply genetic change with no pattern. It is one of the sources of variation on which natural selection can work, and it exists.

Sometimes, yes, it can lead to diseases. So you know that random mutation happens, but for some reason you then claim it doesn't.

Do you understand what I'm saying?
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #67 on: 17/05/2010 12:58:48 »

Echo - we're not saying that evolution is random, but that mutation, one of the sources for variation that evolution can act upon, is.

I disagree the so called 'mutation' you speak of doesn't just happen. firstly there is a cause for the genes to change/alter/ shuffle/turn on or off.
The "mutation" is not the source for adaptation or evolution. The change comes from the environment, hereditary, time,
Yes genetic change is within the process, a mechanism,there is nothing random about it. We will eventually understand all changes in our geneome.
Change/mutation is not the source for evolution it is one effect that evolution requires.

Yes I do agree change in our genes must happen before we can evolve.

mutations are defined as permanent which would halt evolution, random is not so random when we understand how/why

I have used the words you yourself use to explain things (random mutation) but truely does anyone think genes change without cause that they are their own source of evolution an not an effect or mechanism within evolution. does anyone truely think that these changes are permanent or random?


« Last Edit: 17/05/2010 13:01:42 by echochartruse »
 

Offline rosy

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« Reply #68 on: 17/05/2010 13:44:07 »
echochartruse-
So... evolution:
1. a random copying error in gene replication causes an alteration in the genetic sequence
2. the synthesis of proteins based on the DNA-RNA-protein transcription/translation sequence makes a protein which differs slightly from that which occurs in the un-mutated cells (or indeed no protein is made or a previously dormant gene is newly able to be transcribed, or more or less of a particular protein is synthesised)
3. the (subtley) altered protein make-up of the cell alters the organism, making it (dependent on its environment) more or less able to reproduce successfully (or indeed pretty much equivalently capable of reproducing - a neutral mutation)
4. the organism has more/the same number of/fewer/no offspring, and thus is, or isn't, more numerous in future generations

As far as I can tell, your problem is with step one, but this is astonishingly well demonstrated in humans, bacteria, mice, you name it... and yes, those "copying errors" are both permanent and random. To suggest they could be anything else is frankly ludicrous (or requires the intervention of some form of intelligent, intervening deity... of course the thing about intelligent deities is we can't disprove them, only point out that there's an entirely satisfactory and more parsimonious solution which does not require one).

Possibly what you need to do is go away and read up on transcription. In which case you could start with wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcription_(genetics)
Once you understand why random mutations are not, or should not be, a conceptual problem, maybe you could come back and discuss this further.
 

Offline norcalclimber

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« Reply #69 on: 17/05/2010 20:20:26 »


As far as I can tell, your problem is with step one, but this is astonishingly well demonstrated in humans, bacteria, mice, you name it... and yes, those "copying errors" are both permanent and random. To suggest they could be anything else is frankly ludicrous (or requires the intervention of some form of intelligent, intervening deity... of course the thing about intelligent deities is we can't disprove them, only point out that there's an entirely satisfactory and more parsimonious solution which does not require one).



I agree that some copying errors are probably completely random... but I have to disagree with you when you say that positing some of what are call "transcription errors" are not random is ludicrous or would require some creator.  I think it is quite possible (as I've stated before) that some "errors" are actually "chosen" by the epigenome.  At the same time, I think it would be wrong to say that no mutation is random.  However, if after a few more decades of study it is proven that the epigenome can "choose" mutation, I think it is likely that the vast majority(but certainly not all) of mutations are probably not random.
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #70 on: 23/05/2010 19:47:07 »

Possibly what you need to do is go away and read up on transcription. In which case you could start with wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcription_(genetics)
Once you understand why random mutations are not, or should not be, a conceptual problem, maybe you could come back and discuss this further.

Well i have gone away and read some more but still do not understand how science even equates 'random' as scientific as each day we find the reason for our once process we thought was 'random'

and I would not use wikipedia to prove anything as you may find I have written it there myself.

Quote from: There Is 'Design' In Nature, Biologist Argues http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080217143838.htm
In a Feb. 17, 2008 symposium at the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) annual meeting in Boston,* Miller will argue that science itself, including evolutionary biology, is predicated on the idea of "design" -- the correlation of structure with function that lies at the heart of the molecular nature of life.
Miller is a cell biologist and the Royce Family Professor for Teaching Excellence at Brown.
Miller will argue that the scientific community must address the attractiveness of the "design" concept and make the case that science itself is based on the idea of design -- or the regularity of organization, function, and natural law that gives rise to the world in which we live.
He points out that structural and molecular biologists routinely speak of the design of proteins, signaling pathways, and cellular structures. He also notes that the human body bears the hallmarks of design, from the ball sockets that allows hips and shoulders to rotate to the "s" curve of the spine that allows for upright walking.
"There is, indeed, a design to life -- an evolutionary design," Miller said. "The structures in our bodies have changed over time, as have its functions. Scientists should embrace this concept of 'design,' and in so doing, claim for science the sense of orderly rationality in nature to which the anti-evolution movement has long appealed."
by the way I'm not speaking of a diety, that man called god you speak of and I wish others could understand that.

One Gene Found To Command Many Others To Build A Winghttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/04/010413083229.htm

'The Intelligent Genome,' by Adolf Heschl

Genes 'regulate' for a purpose and through a process we may not understand yet but not willy nilly and random without a reason, but usually with intent out of necessity for survival.

'Genes Know How to Network'http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2009/04/21-03.html?rss=1
not random but for a purpose

Genes know their left from their righthttp://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v8/n9/full/nrg2194.html

Sometimes I think some scientists themselves think they are the only diety that can 'design' a gene for a specific purpose that all other gene variations could only happen randomly.
« Last Edit: 23/05/2010 20:42:52 by echochartruse »
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #71 on: 23/05/2010 20:49:29 »

I agree that some copying errors are probably completely random...

Quote from: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090623090157.htm
There’s no way for the RNA polymerase to ensure that the correct letter is always incorporated at the right spot. “Statistically, we would expect to see a hundred-fold more errors than we actually do, so we know that some error correction must be happening. Otherwise, many more proteins in our bodies would malfunction,” says Dr Cohen.

Biological experiments have shown that the RNA polymerase slides both forwards and backwards along the RNA sequence it has created. What’s more, it has miniature scissors that can then cut out the last few letters of RNA.

So how are errors corrected? Intelligent typesetters would remove the last few letters when they spot an error. The new model suggests how the backward sliding stalls when passing an error, so wrong letters can be snipped off and copying can resume.
bold mine.

'Various Species' Genes Evolve To Minimize Protein Production Errors...Their study also suggests that the cost of errors in protein production may lie in the malformed proteins themselves, rather than the loss of functional proteins. So now we know.....http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080724123220.htm

The team is now exploring other predictions of this surprising hypothesis, such as what specific chemical changes allow proteins to resist translation errors. "It's the tip of the iceberg," Drummond says.http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051002115542.htm
« Last Edit: 23/05/2010 21:02:07 by echochartruse »
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #72 on: 23/05/2010 22:29:02 »

Again, random mutation is one of the sources of variety in DNA that non-random natural selection can act upon.

example please...
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #73 on: 24/05/2010 07:55:02 »
It's the entire basis of genetic clocks.
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #74 on: 26/05/2010 19:54:41 »
It's the entire basis of genetic clocks.
I dont understand 'genetic clocks' can you give me an example of 'random mutation is one of the sources of variety in DNA that non-random natural selection can act upon'
 

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Could turtles be intelligently designed?
« Reply #74 on: 26/05/2010 19:54:41 »

 

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