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Author Topic: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?  (Read 6639 times)

Offline ukmicky

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Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« on: 22/11/2005 01:52:10 »
Here i go again astrophysics time

Things in space like to spin, be it planets, suns, solar systems, galaxies etc etc,so could the universe itself be spinning.
Could all that interior motion cause the universe to spin or maybe it could of started to spin due to the effects of the big bang when it was created?.
I have no idea how they would be able to tell as i presume you would need an outside reference point to determine if i were.
But if it was, could the spin account for the expansion of the universe rather than dark matter

Michael                                      
« Last Edit: 08/05/2010 16:24:18 by chris »


 

Offline A Big Mug

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #1 on: 22/11/2005 02:57:11 »
I don't know what I am talking about.  Now that I have that out in the open, I would guess that if you added up all the "spin" in our universe it would sum to zero somehow.  I don't think the inflation that is taking place is based on centrifical (sp) force.  Who knows though.
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #2 on: 22/11/2005 03:04:54 »
yeah in reality i doubt interior motion could cause it to spin either,however it could be spinning as an efect of its creation and an object thats spinning Possesses an outward force

Michael                                      
« Last Edit: 22/11/2005 03:09:00 by ukmicky »
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #3 on: 22/11/2005 03:12:47 »
...or perhaps the Universe is being flushed down a rather large plug hole !

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #4 on: 22/11/2005 12:58:15 »
quote:
I would guess that if you added up all the "spin" in our universe it would sum to zero somehow


Apparently all the energy in the universe is balanced out so the overall level is 0. (I read that in a rather heavy paper about thermodynamics that I couldn't completely understand. Maybe 1 of our physicist members can shed some light on this)
I'm not sure any spin would be due to the Big Bang. I think I'm right in saying that explosions don't cause rotation if the force is distributed evenly. Everything I've read about the formation of stars & planets says that as the bits & pieces of whatever come together, it starts to rotate.
Where the universe is concerned, any such comings-together are on a very small scale compared to its overall size. Even a super-cluster of galaxies takes up only a minute fraction of the overall volume of the universe. Were all the planets, galaxies, clusters & super-clusters aligned & rotating in unison, I suppose it's possible that could cause the universe to spin. But as they are aligned seemingly at random, I'd have thought the rotational forces cancel each other out to a large extent if not totally.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #5 on: 22/11/2005 13:06:15 »
quote:
But if it was, could the spin account for the expansion of the universe rather than dark matter


Wouldn't that cause any expansion along the axis of spin to be less than equatorial expansion? (The Earth, for instance, is an oblate spheroid, the diameter of which is greater at 90deg to the axis of rotation) The result would be a universe expanding in a similar way to a middle-aged man - around the waist but not height :D . In fact, the height may even reduce as material is pushed outward in the plane of spin.
This doesn't seem to be the case. The expansion appears to be the same in all directions.

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Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #6 on: 26/11/2005 16:54:06 »
There is clearly turbulence in the universe at all levels but whether the universe as a whole is rotating is very difficult to measure because we are inside of it and can't see out!

However this is a very interesting question and worthy of some thought.

as this is my first post on this forum I will post now before adding more.

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #7 on: 26/11/2005 17:03:25 »
Hi Ian and welcome to the forum, looking forward to your future participation

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Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #8 on: 26/11/2005 17:15:56 »
Angular momentum (another word used to desgribe rotation or spin) is probably the most fundamental feature of our universe.  At least as fundamental as gravity.  it is in fact the reason why the universe does not collapse back into nothingness!  In any closed system, like energy, angular momentum is conserved so if a spinning object be it gas cloud or ballerina as it contracts so it spins faster to maintain the angular momentum.  

It is interesting to note that Planck's conatant has the dimensions of angular momentum and most particle interections are described in terms of exchanges of angular momentum.

The angular momentum of the earth in its orbit about the sun is what stops it falliing into the sun under the effect of its gravity.  

In exactly the same way, it is the angular momentum of an electron around a proton in a hydrogen atom stops it falling into the proton under the effect of the attractive electrical forces.

Now for an intersting fact about out solar system.  Most of the angular momentum in the solar system is in the panets if all the planets including their angular momentum were pushed into the sun the mass and material content would not change very much but the sun would be rotating so fast that it would fall apart!  That is, forming planets is one of the ways a gass cloud sheds its angular momentum to form a star!

in exactly the same way a free electron must shed angular momentum by radiating electromagnetic waves when it joins a proton to form a hydrogen atom.

Pauses for breath :-)

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Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #9 on: 26/11/2005 17:59:14 »
To give my answer to your question ukmicky,  My guess is that the universe has the maximum amount of angular momentum that it can have altough that could reperesent a very slow rate of net rotation based on the current size of the universe.  Bearing in mind that if inflationary cosmologies apply we can only see a tiny part of our universe.  AFIK the only way we could detect this would be to detect a tiny net centrifugal force. but again my guess is that this will be closely balanced by the net gravitational force both of which can only be estimated by very accurate meaurements of the motions of a very great many galaxies over a vast region.

It is very easy to forget about the effect of angular momentum and I feel that some of the scientists who glibly talk about the collapse of material iside a black hole to a singularity have forgotten this.  The classic picture of a black hole that is usually given is one that is not rotating and i think that because of the conservation of angulsr momentum it is almost impossible to make a black hole that ids not rotating at pretty close to the maximum speed that it can rotate.  A rotating black hole is a much more complex stricture than a non rotating one and I am only just starting to get my brain round what it is like.

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #10 on: 26/11/2005 18:46:59 »

Damn! another idea bites the dust or played backwards "It's fun to smoke marajuana". :D



Michael                                      
« Last Edit: 26/11/2005 18:53:49 by ukmicky »
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #11 on: 26/11/2005 19:03:55 »
I still think that your question is an important one even if we can't answer it.

I've got a lot of further thoughts on this but these are best left to another day or topic

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #12 on: 26/11/2005 22:34:56 »
I believe one of the solutions to Einstein's equations indicate that possibly the universe is rotating and if proven true would permit travel backwards in time an idea abhorrent to einstein.

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Offline gtphonehome

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #13 on: 06/05/2010 00:20:20 »
much can be found by finding the most impossible attributes in a finite observance. in reference to spin there is 2 possibilities... one possibility includes nearly infinite variations of spin, the other possibility would be not spinning... so in a pool of possibilities where you have nearly infinite spins up to the speed of light and only one possibility of non-spin it seems silly to assume the universe is not spinning since it is the smallest of the possibilities. that means that it is probable that the universe is spinning and nothing is coherent outside of a ring that would be moving at the speed of light... so even if our observances say that the universe is finite there are still moving spin dimensions that can account for what is missing in terms of the universe expanding. the most highly probable would be a chaotic spin which arbitrarily reaches a zero point where things previously invisible become coherent for a time then vanish. the energy is always there providing you are coherent with the moving spin dimension necesary to view it... the universe is probrably moving and also spining giving it an oval shape with different concentrations of background radiation that dodge in and out of the coherency of 2 suitable moving spin dimension quanta. the same is true for "atomic jiggling".
 

Offline Andrew P

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #14 on: 07/05/2010 18:45:28 »

Could all that interior motion cause the universe to spin or maybe it could of started to spin due to the effects of the big bang when it was created?.
I have no idea how they would be able to tell as i presume you would need an outside reference point to determine if i were.
But if it was, could the spin account for the expansion of the universe rather than dark matter


There are consistent models of universes where all matter is spinning; these models are part of an even wider class known as 'Bianchi' models.

The effects of this kind of spin are observationally measurable. There was even a suggestion a while back that the WMAP satellite had already seen a signature of rotation -- but my own PhD thesis ruled out these claims, sadly.  You can get a slightly technical description here: newbielink:http://www.ast.cam.ac.uk/~app26/bianchi [nonactive]

However, there is no doubt that -- even if there is any overall spinning motion -- it is too weak to have a significant effect on the expansion of the Universe. It certainly can't remove the need for dark matter/energy, sadly.

Monthly astronomy podcasts - newbielink:http://www.thenakedscientists.com/astronomy [nonactive]
 

Online syhprum

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #15 on: 08/05/2010 08:15:54 »
Only by accepting that our Universe is one of many which are of course unobservable can the concept of spin have any meaning.
Spin can only be relative to something else as by the common definition that the Universe is all there is there can be no spin.
 
 

Offline Andrew P

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #16 on: 08/05/2010 10:01:29 »
Only by accepting that our Universe is one of many which are of course unobservable can the concept of spin have any meaning.
Spin can only be relative to something else as by the common definition that the Universe is all there is there can be no spin.

I can see why you'd expect that, but it's not actually true. The effects of rotational motion are detectible even if there is nothing 'static' to compare against.

In fact, Einstein tried to formulate general relativity in accordance with "Mach's principle", which more-or-less states syphrum's argument as a reasonable criterion for a good theory. But Einstein failed in this regard: GR does allow 'anti-Machian' behaviour. Some cosmologists are uncomfortable with GR for exactly this reason, but it remains our best description of the large scale universe, so we may be stuck with it.

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Online syhprum

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #17 on: 08/05/2010 11:33:43 »
If Machs principle is indeed being violated does it mean that we are one universe in a multiverse and the other universes although unobservable are still exerting an influence on us.
 

Offline Andrew P

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #18 on: 08/05/2010 14:46:25 »
If Machs principle is indeed being violated does it mean that we are one universe in a multiverse and the other universes although unobservable are still exerting an influence on us.

Mathematical theories like GR often have many different physical interpretations. So your idea is intriguing but I'm afraid I don't see it emerging from the maths in any compelling sense... sorry!

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Re: Could spin account for an expanding Universe?
« Reply #18 on: 08/05/2010 14:46:25 »

 

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