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Author Topic: Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?  (Read 8788 times)

Offline sciconoclast

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     This is another experiment which might be a contradiction to orthodox theory or may not.    The experiment is different than the experiment I posted earlier but may involve the same phenomena or principles.   In this experiment light from a 630-680nm laser is sent through a 0.06mm single slit 483mm from the laser.   Next the light from the single slit center ban then passes through a double slit consisting of two 0.05mm slits separated by a 1.85mm spacer after traveling an additional 37mm.   The light from the double slit forms two divergent single slit patterns with separate center intensities and peripheral bans which are displayed on a screen 1058mm further away.   The inside peripheral bans between the two center intensities are subdivided further into bans with double slit spacing.   Next a transverse shield is placed 5mm in front of the double slit which begins in the space between the first and second peripheral bans to the right of the left center intensity and ends in the space between the first and second peripheral bans to the left of the right center intensity.   This blocks out all bans in the center between the first peripheral bans of each pattern creating a dark corridor.   The separate double slit pattern within the inside peripheral bans still remain.   If one slit is blocked the double slit spacing disappears from the remaining pattern.   Tracing the individual slit patterns separately on the screen reveals that they do not overlap.   Finally with both slits open a 99mm longitudinal shield placed 5mm beyond the transverse shield along the center of the dark corridor.   This results in eliminating the double slit spacing.   It seems the continuation of the double slit spacing in the inside peripheral beams even after the transverse shield eliminates any overlap or convergence of light paths and the association of each pattern with the light path through the corresponding slits are contradictions to the principles of quantum theory.   The elimination of the double slit spacing by the introduction of the transverse shield that does not block any light paths indicates that something else is blocked.   This may be the same something that passes through the dark slit in my earlier experiment but this time the light free path is created by a physical barrier. 


 

Offline JP

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #1 on: 23/03/2010 00:49:19 »
A diagram or two would be helpful.  :)
 

Offline Farsight

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #2 on: 23/03/2010 13:57:37 »
This is very interesting, sciconoclast. How refreshing to hear from somebody actually doing experiments and thinking for themselves. I'm guessing it isn't going to contradict quantum theory so much as some of the more outlandish interpretations associated with it. Quantum means "how much", but sadly many people push it as "weird". I see something like this:

_____    screen, no pattern with longitudinal shield

   _        transverse shield
   |
   |        longitudinal shield

   v        double slit   
   |       
     


Tell me more.                                      
 

Offline sciconoclast

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #3 on: 24/03/2010 01:31:12 »
Thanks for showing me how to make a diagram with the key board.

  _________________________________     screen: separate double slit patterns with transverse shield alone and
    .                           .               separate single slit patterns with transverse and longitudinal
     .                         .
      .                       .
       .                     .     
        .         l         .
         .        l        .
          .       l       .                     longitudinal shield
           .      l      .
            .     l     .
             .    l    .
              .   l   .
               . ___ .                           transverse shield
              __.___.__                          double slit
                 . .
                  .
                __ __                            single slit
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  O                              laser
           
                 
I hope this diagram plots okay.  Is there any way to upload diagrams and pictures to this site. Thanks for the input. 
« Last Edit: 24/03/2010 01:33:25 by sciconoclast »
 

Offline JP

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #4 on: 24/03/2010 01:59:35 »
If you click "preview" before posting, there's an option at the bottom to "Create New Diagram."  There's also a small tab labeled "Additional Options" below the post window.  If you click to expand it, you get the option to attach an image file (gif, jpg, pdf or png).
 

Offline JP

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #5 on: 24/03/2010 02:03:51 »
Ok, so from what I understand of your posts, this is again explained fully by classical optics, not quantum mechanics.  Light will create an interference pattern when light from one slit lands on top of light from the other slit on the screen.  When you put the "longitudinal shield" in place, it looks from the figure like light from slit A is now prevented from landing on top of light from slit B at the screen, so you wouldn't see interference.  If you take away the shield, then light from the slits can mix at the screen and you see interference.

You should also be able to remove the "transverse shield" entirely and get the same effect.
 

Offline yor_on

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #6 on: 24/03/2010 22:28:18 »
Yes I too would prefer an actual drawing with one word for each object, and the explanation of what they mean and what you expect coming in a few sentences at the bottom of your post. To many words describing each object above 'clutter' it up to me. It could have to do with my way of reading English of course, but it would help all the same:)
 

Offline sciconoclast

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #7 on: 24/03/2010 23:30:59 »
JP:   The transverse shield eliminates any overlap from slit A and B and any light paths conflicting with the longitudinal shield.   Thanks for the information on how to upload diagrams and pictures.  I will attempt it with this post.

Farsight:   I am back with some more information on the experiment.   Yes, I am using the term quantum theory for the "weird", conceptual stuff, like nonlocality and complementarity, which is not as well established as Quantum Mechanics.  Unlike the first experiment I posted, this one requires some precise alignment.   The most difficult being for that of the transverse shield.  At the short distance from the double slit the interference patterns are to tight to be directly observed ( the demonstration that they are in existence this soon is also a challenge to some prevalent theory requirements).   The transverse shield actually consist of two separate overlapping shields which are mounted on a home made device involving two back to back electronic micrometer calipers.   The two edges of the compound transverse shield are aligned separately with their respective slit by observing the changes in the interference pattern on the distant screen with only that slit open.   It is also important to have all of the slit edges and the transverse shield edges and the plane of the longitudinal shield precisely aligned vertically.   Final adjustments can also be made by pattern observation.   If any light hits the transverse shield edge it is given away by an asymmetrical staggered edge pattern between one transverse edge and the opposite slit edge or the bowtie pattern between the two transverse edges.   In addition to visible observation I also photographed the transverse shield edges, the face of the longitudinal shield, and the dark area it creates on the screen with a long exposure to check for any sign of light.   I would also like to mention again that it is the area of the only the two remaining inside single slit peripheral bans that display the double slit spacing.  This experiment is set up so that this area represents only slightly divergent or nearly parallel paths.   The center intensities which are on more divergent paths do not display the double slit pattern.   I originally performed this experiment with the double slit farther from the single slit to reduce the angle of divergence so that the center intensities would be where the double slit appeared.   The results where the same but it proved difficult to photograph.  The peripheral ban areas allowed for better photographs; which are still not that great.   As I mentioned my observations are mostly visual with a digital camera to keep me honest with myself.  My equipmet is rudimentary and I am not a trained experimenter.   Even if the design of this experiment and my tertiary results to seem to present a challenge to quantum theory it could only change scientific thinking if it is duplicated in an accredited lap, hopefully with equipment to send and detect individual photons, and referred and subjected to peer review.  It would be interesting if someone lurking out there has the facilities and duplicates this experiment.  I hope this additional information was helpfull and thanks again for you inquiry.
 

Offline JP

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #8 on: 25/03/2010 03:30:27 »
JP:   The transverse shield eliminates any overlap from slit A and B and any light paths conflicting with the longitudinal shield.  
I don't see how it does that.  Maybe a more detailed diagram will make it clearer.

It would be easy to duplicate this experiment, but why would anyone do so?  This experiment only demonstrates the behavior of classical light, not quantum mechanics, and all you've done is confirmed what we already know: that light behaves like a wave. 
 

Offline Geezer

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #9 on: 25/03/2010 06:41:24 »
JP:   The transverse shield eliminates any overlap from slit A and B and any light paths conflicting with the longitudinal shield.   Thanks for the information on how to upload diagrams and pictures.  I will attempt it with this post.

Farsight:   I am back with some more information on the experiment.   Yes, I am using the term quantum theory for the "weird", conceptual stuff, like nonlocality and complementarity, which is not as well established as Quantum Mechanics.  Unlike the first experiment I posted, this one requires some precise alignment.   The most difficult being for that of the transverse shield.  At the short distance from the double slit the interference patterns are to tight to be directly observed ( the demonstration that they are in existence this soon is also a challenge to some prevalent theory requirements).   The transverse shield actually consist of two separate overlapping shields which are mounted on a home made device involving two back to back electronic micrometer calipers.   The two edges of the compound transverse shield are aligned separately with their respective slit by observing the changes in the interference pattern on the distant screen with only that slit open.   It is also important to have all of the slit edges and the transverse shield edges and the plane of the longitudinal shield precisely aligned vertically.   Final adjustments can also be made by pattern observation.   If any light hits the transverse shield edge it is given away by an asymmetrical staggered edge pattern between one transverse edge and the opposite slit edge or the bowtie pattern between the two transverse edges.   In addition to visible observation I also photographed the transverse shield edges, the face of the longitudinal shield, and the dark area it creates on the screen with a long exposure to check for any sign of light.   I would also like to mention again that it is the area of the only the two remaining inside single slit peripheral bans that display the double slit spacing.  This experiment is set up so that this area represents only slightly divergent or nearly parallel paths.   The center intensities which are on more divergent paths do not display the double slit pattern.   I originally performed this experiment with the double slit farther from the single slit to reduce the angle of divergence so that the center intensities would be where the double slit appeared.   The results where the same but it proved difficult to photograph.  The peripheral ban areas allowed for better photographs; which are still not that great.   As I mentioned my observations are mostly visual with a digital camera to keep me honest with myself.  My equipmet is rudimentary and I am not a trained experimenter.   Even if the design of this experiment and my tertiary results to seem to present a challenge to quantum theory it could only change scientific thinking if it is duplicated in an accredited lap, hopefully with equipment to send and detect individual photons, and referred and subjected to peer review.  It would be interesting if someone lurking out there has the facilities and duplicates this experiment.  I hope this additional information was helpfull and thanks again for you inquiry.

Scionoclas,

Perhaps you would be good enough to re-post this with some actual punctuation.

As I'm sure you are already aware, punctuation was invented so that people could exchange ideas, concepts, and a lot of other stuff in written form. Your choice of course, but you might consider adopting the "three sentence rule".

The three sentence rule says that no paragraph should consist of more than three sentences.
 

Offline sciconoclast

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #10 on: 25/03/2010 20:48:40 »
JP:   I appreciate your comments and enterest.  But first I would like to make sure you understand the experiment.   The experiment is actually a combination of a couple experiments or an experiment with more than one phase.

    Let me concentrate on just one phase.  When the transverse shield is the only shield in place there is still a double slit pattern.  The transverse shield eliminates any overlap or convergence of light from the separate slits.

    In classic wave mechanics there must be an overlap or interference field for a interference pattern to develop.  In this case there is no such field.  But, yet there is still an interference pattern.

    In quantum theory there must be a convergence of separate proable paths for a double slit pattern.  And there also cannot be a pattern if the path is known.   In this case there is no convergence and it is known which slit the light passed through for both of the separate patterns.   Yet there is still two separate double slit patterns.
 

Offline JP

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #11 on: 26/03/2010 01:08:39 »
JP:   I appreciate your comments and enterest.  But first I would like to make sure you understand the experiment.   The experiment is actually a combination of a couple experiments or an experiment with more than one phase.

The longitudinal shield is the one what will keep (most) of the light from interfering.  The transverse shield will diffract the light and it will still interfere.  It's still not quantum.  Before you go about trying to claim you've proven that quantum theory doesn't work, you should understand the theory behind the experiment you're doing.  If you did, you wouldn't be making the claims that you are.
 

Offline Geezer

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #12 on: 26/03/2010 04:32:27 »
Hi!

Sciconoclast, thank you for reducing the size of your paragraphs. It does help other forum members, a lot!

I think it would be appropriate to move this topic to the New Theories section, as it clearly is a new theory. Please send me a personal message if you have a major problem with this.

If you click on the face icon (view profile) in this post, you should be able to find "Send personal message" under the Actions heading.

Many thanks!

Geezer (Mod)
 

Offline sciconoclast

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #13 on: 31/03/2010 03:47:57 »
Greetings JP:
     I tried to upload my diagrams but could not.  They were to large, mb instead of kb, for uploads to this site.

     The trans verse shield edges are unilluminated because they are positioned in the dark bans of the interference pattern.   This is a proven technique.  It has been used in famous experiments such as the Afshar experiment were wires placed in these areas were free of photon hits.

     I am interested in learning what you mean when you refer to light as a wave.  Are you referring to the current, predominate Bohr or Copenhagen model.  In this theory the wave function is only an abstraction for determining probabilities and does not represent a real entity.

     Or are you referring to an actual wave in a Lorentz luminiferous aether cabable of a Von Neumann collapse into a photon.  Then there is the Bohm model with pilot waves that sheppards photons.  I am curious as to your perspective.
 

Offline JP

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #14 on: 31/03/2010 06:51:44 »
I'm referring purely to classical optics: Rayleigh-Sommerfeld diffraction theory. 

Try converting your images to a smaller format or shrinking them.  From your ascii picture, I think it's fully explained by classical optics, but seeing a better diagram might help.
 

Offline sciconoclast

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #15 on: 04/04/2010 19:12:03 »
Okay, I am going to attempt to upload a diagram and pictures again.





In classical optics there would be a single bow wave which should diffract around the transverse shield.   This is not what happens.   Trying to describe a quantum theory experiment with Rayleigh and Sommerfield is like trying to explain a relativity experiment with Newtonian gravity.
 

Offline Geezer

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #16 on: 04/04/2010 19:48:06 »
Scicon, If you are confident you understand the effect, why bother posting? You may not like the answers you get, but please do not reject answers that were given in good faith just because they don't align with your opinion.

Thanks!
 

Offline sciconoclast

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #17 on: 05/04/2010 03:37:05 »
I apologise if I came across as rude.  I am not confident in my analysis of the experiment which is why I haven't given it yet.  I made the post merely to learn if there was an explanation within current theory for the results.

I explained earlier why diffraction by the transverse shield could not be an explanation.  I am uploading some more pictures in the hopes of clarifying the experimental results further.

Pattern Without Any Shields In Place


Pattern With Transverse Shield In Place


Pattern With Transverse Shield In Place and Left Slit Blocked


Pattern With Transverse Shield In Place and Right Slit Blocked


Pattern With Transverse And Longitudinal Shields In Place


If there was diffraction around the transverse shield then when one slit was blocked there should have been a diffraction pattern in the area of the inside peripheral ban with a long thin streak towards the center and finally spaced bans extending away from the center rather than the large single slit ban.  If there is an explanation within current theory to explain the results it probably lies some how in the quantum probability field's relationship to the shields.  Then again there may be a simple explanation in classical optics that has so far been overlooked.
« Last Edit: 05/04/2010 03:42:49 by sciconoclast »
 

Offline JP

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #18 on: 05/04/2010 05:36:29 »
Can you post images of what the single slit pattern looks like without the transverse shield in place?
 

Offline sciconoclast

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #19 on: 05/04/2010 23:27:58 »
Good Question.
     I am traveling this week and I will not have access to my stuff untill this weekend.  The pattern with only one single slit open and without the transverse shield is the same as with the transverse shield except that there are additional peripheral bans extending across the center area.   These are of course the ones blocked by the transverse shield.  The unblocked portion remains consistent and unchange.
                                                 I hope this is helpfull.
 

Offline sciconoclast

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #20 on: 15/04/2010 20:23:05 »
Okay I am back.

     I couldn't locate any pictures of each slit alone without any shields.  So I set the single slit and the double slit back up on their original stations and took some more pictures.

left slit open and right slit closed with camera focused on centerline of experiment.


right slit open and left slit closed with camera focused on center of single slit pattern


   I hope this helps in the experiment analysis.  I am also going to upload a diagram and pictures to my earlier thread to aid in that experiment's evaluation; now that I have been shown how to do that.

                                                                   Thanks again for the enterest.
 

Offline JP

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #21 on: 16/04/2010 02:53:19 »
Comparing the images of the right slit open with the transverse shield in place:

and the right slit open without the transverse shield in place:


Why is the intensity decreasing so strongly in both directions with the shield in place?  I can see two faint side lobes on each side with the shield in place.  Maybe the second one to the right is a tiny bit stronger than the one to the left, but it doesn't seem to be by a lot.
 

Offline sciconoclast

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Is this second experiment a contradiction to quantum theory?
« Reply #22 on: 17/04/2010 03:55:35 »
Here are some more pictures.

    I do not know if the faint light you are seeing to the left of the first inside peripheral beam for the right slit is real.  If it is, then I uploaded the wrong picture.  Sense I have to crop and reduce the pictures I am uploading I am pulling them from the ones I used to set up the experiment and not the final pictures.

    The recent pictures where at a longer exposure than the earlier pictures.  To get a sharp picture of the double slit spacing requires a short exposure and I tried originally to keep the exposure the same for all conditions.   

Here is the right slit only with the transverse shield and at a long exposure.


Here is the right slit only without the transverse shield and at a short exposure.


I also did a version of this experiment with a tighter divergent angle in which the center intensities was where the double slit spacing occurred.  Unfortunately by coincidence the double slit spacing and the spacing that would occur from light hitting the transverse shield was mathematically the same and did not allow for certainty as to the pattern source.  That is why I did this newer version.

This picture is a long exposure from that first experiment with both slits open and only the transverse shield in place.
I am only including it because it shows the peripheral bans on the outside and the blocking of peripheral bans of the same intensity by the transverse shield on the inside.


As I mentioned I only included this last picture to demonstrate the lack of refraction by the transverse shield and not to open a discussion on another experiment.

                                                   Thanks again for all your comments.

 
« Last Edit: 17/04/2010 04:03:05 by sciconoclast »
 

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