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Author Topic: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?  (Read 9157 times)

Offline neilep

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Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« on: 30/03/2010 11:06:34 »
Dearest Scholarly Peeps Of Generous Sharage,

As a sheepy I of course luff diamonds, diamonds are my all time favourite carbon thingy that is well hard !

Diamonds are like well hard....they are so hard that if ewe dropped one from a foot above the ground it would not break when it hits the ground !!..some people say ewe could drop a diamond from as high as a whole meter and it still would not shatter when hitting the ground. Whilst this is bordering on fantasy it is almost believable !


Look here are some diamonds.


Some Diamonds Earlier.


Nice eh ? Being delivered next Tuesday.

Even though diamonds (as earlier explained) are ridiculously hard, i think I heard that the expansion of water (when it freezes)is even stronger .

So, say I took this molecule of water...

......


........ and placed it in a water molecule sized space within the center of a diamond and then chucked the diamond in my freezer...would it crack the diamond as it froze ?

It's really important I know the answer to this as I suspect my 4 year old will ask me this during supper tonight or perhaps when I am wiping his bum, and it's important that he thinks I am klevur and knows stuff !

so, will a freezing water molecule in the center of a diamond shatter it ?......if not why not ?...what about a few billion molecules ?


whajafink ?

hugs & shmishes








mwah mwah mwah


Neil
Blingy Sheepy
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« Last Edit: 31/03/2010 02:04:59 by neilep »


 

Offline doppler1

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #1 on: 30/03/2010 12:32:09 »
This is an interesting one! how would the water molecule find itself inside a diamond? From what i understand, a diamond is formed in occurences of exreme pressure and temperature or is it just pressure?

I am anxiously awaiting the input of someone more clued up than myself..which should not take long :)
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #2 on: 30/03/2010 12:36:34 »
Thank ewe Doppler 1 !..(Hugs Doppler)..as a sheepy I of course just luff asking hypothetical questions....so,lets assume that a water molecule does exist inside a diamond and like ewe....I will await (with anxious anticipation)  for some klevur peeps who know stuff to pass by and hopefully answer !.YAYY !!
 

Offline rosy

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #3 on: 30/03/2010 13:48:06 »
Not one molecule, no. The expansion of freezing water is a bulk property of water (many molecules get arranged into a configuration that takes up more space than the liquid) but a single molecule wouldn't do that.
 

Offline doppler1

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #4 on: 30/03/2010 13:58:47 »
I guess that is that and it boils down to a qty issue. If the quantity of water in the stone will exceed the space inside the stone when changing state to ice, can it generate enough pressure to crack the diamond?? I am doubtful on this though....lets see
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #5 on: 30/03/2010 14:59:50 »
Not one molecule, no. The expansion of freezing water is a bulk property of water (many molecules get arranged into a configuration that takes up more space than the liquid) but a single molecule wouldn't do that.

Thanks Rosy ....what about two molecules then ?...or the minimum needed to form the necessary configuration ?
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #6 on: 30/03/2010 15:00:37 »
I guess that is that and it boils down to a qty issue. If the quantity of water in the stone will exceed the space inside the stone when changing state to ice, can it generate enough pressure to crack the diamond?? I am doubtful on this though....lets see

I suspect I need to tender TNS to empirically study this   ;)
 

Offline Geezer

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #7 on: 30/03/2010 18:23:48 »
Ahem! Well, nearly all diamonds have defects called "inclusions". Diamondologists call them inclusions so that people don't think they are buying dodgy diamonds with defects. (This is not unlike softwareologists when they refer to defects in software as "errata" 'cos people might not buy the stuff if they thought it was full of stinking bugs.)

Anyway, I digress. Some of these defects - er, inclusions - can be cracks that come to the surface of the diamond. Now, if water molecules(quite a lot of course) were to get into the crack and the diamond was cooled so that the water froze, I'm pretty sure the diamond would split.

I will now ask Mrs G if she has any spare diamonds laying around that we can use to conduct an experiment.

Later:

I am not able to post what Mrs G told me, but I'm afraid there will be no experiment today.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #8 on: 30/03/2010 19:26:42 »
OK, imagine I take a diamond and drill a hole into it so that there's a thin shell of diamond left, then I cut a thread on the hole and fit it with a screw top. If I fill it with water, screw the top on and freeze it then , if the walls are thin enough it will break.
Now Imagine that I just put a little water in it and freeze it; nothing happens because there's enough space to take up the expansion. If I fill it a bit more then the ice will fill the space and expand a bit but the diamond will stretch slightly.
There will come a point where adding one more molecule of water will overcome the elasticity of the diamond and break it.
That one molecule could be said to break the diamond.
 

Offline Geezer

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #9 on: 30/03/2010 20:31:06 »
OK, imagine I take a diamond and drill a hole into it so that there's a thin shell of diamond left, then I cut a thread on the hole and fit it with a screw top. If I fill it with water, screw the top on and freeze it then , if the walls are thin enough it will break.
Now Imagine that I just put a little water in it and freeze it; nothing happens because there's enough space to take up the expansion. If I fill it a bit more then the ice will fill the space and expand a bit but the diamond will stretch slightly.
There will come a point where adding one more molecule of water will overcome the elasticity of the diamond and break it.
That one molecule could be said to break the diamond.

The molecule that broke the diamond's face (I don't think diamonds have backs)

Can I borrow your tap? I promise not to break it. What's it made of BTW?
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #10 on: 30/03/2010 21:26:37 »
I generally use laser etching to engrave diamonds, what do you use?
 

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #11 on: 30/03/2010 21:58:12 »
the pressure of the water expansion would need to be greater than the tensile strength of a diamond this may work but the numbers will have to be crunched....Ill have a look when Ive more time, but several other factors would have to be examined.

1 Biggest problem is the scale, I rather suspect this isn't quite linear Ive a few thoughts about this and will re post once Ive fleshed them out

2 I'm under the impression that ice under a lot of pressure actually shrinks I'm pretty sure i read a paper on it once and may have even posted about it

3 If the water was perfectly sealed in a flawless diamond (i know spherical cows in a vacuum) this produces 2 more problems

a) I'm pretty sure pure h2o wont freeze

b) water is incompressible therefore the hermetic seal of the diamond will not allow expansion and again prevent freezing.



Phewww! Damn you Neil you've got me thinking I hate having to crunch the numbers.
 

Offline Geezer

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #12 on: 30/03/2010 22:14:15 »
I generally use laser etching to engrave diamonds, what do you use?

I have a set of unobtainium taps. They are rather hard to come by.
 

Offline LeeE

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #13 on: 30/03/2010 23:45:37 »
Diamond is hard, not tough.
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #14 on: 31/03/2010 01:59:42 »
Ahem! Well, nearly all diamonds have defects called "inclusions". Diamondologists call them inclusions so that people don't think they are buying dodgy diamonds with defects. (This is not unlike softwareologists when they refer to defects in software as "errata" 'cos people might not buy the stuff if they thought it was full of stinking bugs.)

Anyway, I digress. Some of these defects - er, inclusions - can be cracks that come to the surface of the diamond. Now, if water molecules(quite a lot of course) were to get into the crack and the diamond was cooled so that the water froze, I'm pretty sure the diamond would split.

I will now ask Mrs G if she has any spare diamonds laying around that we can use to conduct an experiment.

Later:

I am not able to post what Mrs G told me, but I'm afraid there will be no experiment today.

Gosh Thank ewe ever so much Dr Geezer  for your great explanations to wit I can say are received with gratitude. Fortunately I can say that I have been lucky enuff to have come into close contact with a variety of diamonds over the years and I think inclusions are great !...I would prefer an included diamond than a flawless one. Can ewe also thank Mrs G fro the diamonds she is sending me, hence the reason why you're unable to perform some empirical study !  ;)
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #15 on: 31/03/2010 02:00:51 »
OK, imagine I take a diamond and drill a hole into it so that there's a thin shell of diamond left, then I cut a thread on the hole and fit it with a screw top. If I fill it with water, screw the top on and freeze it then , if the walls are thin enough it will break.
Now Imagine that I just put a little water in it and freeze it; nothing happens because there's enough space to take up the expansion. If I fill it a bit more then the ice will fill the space and expand a bit but the diamond will stretch slightly.
There will come a point where adding one more molecule of water will overcome the elasticity of the diamond and break it.
That one molecule could be said to break the diamond.

Thank ewe Bored Chemist very much........so, one molecule of water can indeed split a diamond!..yayyy !!
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #16 on: 31/03/2010 02:02:49 »
the pressure of the water expansion would need to be greater than the tensile strength of a diamond this may work but the numbers will have to be crunched....Ill have a look when Ive more time, but several other factors would have to be examined.

1 Biggest problem is the scale, I rather suspect this isn't quite linear Ive a few thoughts about this and will re post once Ive fleshed them out

2 I'm under the impression that ice under a lot of pressure actually shrinks I'm pretty sure i read a paper on it once and may have even posted about it

3 If the water was perfectly sealed in a flawless diamond (i know spherical cows in a vacuum) this produces 2 more problems

a) I'm pretty sure pure h2o wont freeze

b) water is incompressible therefore the hermetic seal of the diamond will not allow expansion and again prevent freezing.



Phewww! Damn you Neil you've got me thinking I hate having to crunch the numbers.



My sincere apologies for the gravity of the number crunching involved Dr Sharkeyandgeorge but be rest assured that the appreciation of this sheep will more than make up for the work involved for which I am sure will be arrived by hard graft and not merely stumbledupon.com !!  ;)
 

Offline neilep

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Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #17 on: 31/03/2010 02:05:54 »
Diamond is hard, not tough.


Who said Diamonds are tough ???  ;D
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #18 on: 31/03/2010 07:00:46 »
You don't need to crunch the numbers. Just make  the thing thin.
Also water is not incompressible.
The cormpressibility is about 10 ppm/ atm IIRC.
Ultrapure water is frozen on a regular basis for temperature standards.
The freezing point changes with pressure so that would need to be properly defined, or you could use the maximum pressure obtainable (at about -21C IIRC)
« Last Edit: 31/03/2010 07:07:05 by Bored chemist »
 

Offline Geezer

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Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #19 on: 01/04/2010 04:56:53 »
If a molecule of water was travelling fast enough, could it crack, or even destroy, a diamond?
 

Offline neilep

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Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #20 on: 01/04/2010 12:59:27 »
If a molecule of water was travelling fast enough, could it crack, or even destroy, a diamond?

We have a power shower that spews water out really fast...as a firm believer in empirical study I took my wifeys ring and subjected it to a whole 30 seconds.........upon inspection it was still intact ! QED !
 

Offline LeeE

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Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #21 on: 01/04/2010 17:19:46 »
Diamond is hard, not tough.


Who said Diamonds are tough ???  ;D

Hmm... I'd have thought that cracking or breaking something is about its toughness, not its hardness.  You can shatter a diamond just by hitting it with a hammer - they aren't very tough and don't handle shocks very well.
 

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Can A Freezing Water Molecule Crack A Diamond ?
« Reply #21 on: 01/04/2010 17:19:46 »

 

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