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Author Topic: What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?  (Read 21944 times)

Offline Bored chemist

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #25 on: 17/05/2010 21:32:46 »
He must be right; he's using CAPITAL LETTERS.
 

Offline UndergroundRisingUnited

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #26 on: 17/05/2010 22:31:42 »
The truth can not be argued.
Capital letters are used in this format to make the text easy to follow.
 

Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #27 on: 18/05/2010 01:53:15 »
1.I don't think you'll get a lot of response to your theory because you're not basing it on science.  It's not really worth debating the scientific merits of a new theory when it doesn't have a basis in science.

THIS THEORY, QUESTION IS OBVIOUSLY BASED IN SCIENCE, SHOULD I ASK A CHEF?  
You saying it's based in science doesn't make it science.  The fact that it lacks any scientific basis makes it not science.

Quote
2.It's true that dark matter is a big question in current theories, but if you want to replace current theories with a new one, it has to (a) agree with current observations and (b) predict or explain something unknown.  Predicting and explaining generally also means needing equations and quantitative values.

AGAIN DARK MATTER IS ONLY A VARIABLE.
???  That has nothing to do addressing the point.

Quote
3.There's no evidence for this.

MRI FOR ANOTHER EXAMPLE
(Re: resonances of particles.)  I know how an MRI works.  You're misinterpreting the word "resonance" there.  This is why I'm saying you're not basing this theory in science--you're misinterpreting a lot of scientific concepts.

Quote
4."See" is just a term that's used to mean that we can't observe it in any range of the electromagnetic spectrum, be that light, radio waves, infra red, etc.

AGAIN DARK MATTER IS ONLY A VARIABLE, YOU CAN ONLY SEE A VARIABLE ON PAPER.
Again... what? 

Quote
5."Furthermore, there is no such thing as matter that isn't vibrating, since even particles with the least possible energy still vibrate."

YOUR CLAIM IS FALSE.  THE PROOF IS HERE.

"At the very lowest temperature possible—Absolute Zero (0 degrees Kelvin or 0o K)—all motion stops and the atoms and molecules do not vibrate or even spin."
http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/matter_states.htm
I don't know what to tell you other than that your website is wrong.  Wikipedia does have it right, though citing one website to refute another seems a bit questionable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero.  Check an actual scientific textbook for the answer.  Intro books on thermodynamics should have an explanation.
 

Offline UndergroundRisingUnited

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #28 on: 18/05/2010 02:59:37 »
If you dont know, just say so, or say nothing, or you never learn anything.

"The laws of thermodynamics state that absolute zero cannot be reached because this would require a thermodynamic system to be fully removed from the rest of the universe. A system at absolute zero would still possess quantum mechanical zero-point energy. While molecular motion would not cease entirely at absolute zero, the system would not have enough energy for transference to other systems. It is therefore correct to say that molecular kinetic energy is minimal at absolute zero."

My question asks, could such a mass be created with the extreme condensation of matter in gravity as powerful as something like a collapsing star, past the point of heating it self due to molecular fiction.  Would such a mass be super dense resulting in super gravity?
 

Offline Geezer

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #29 on: 18/05/2010 03:24:05 »

If you dont know, just say so, or say nothing, or you never learn anything.


Public Warning

URU,

I have already warned you not to insult other posters yet you persist with insults like the one above. You seem to be more interested in picking fights to promote your own agenda than debating any real points of science.

This is your last warning. Any more unacceptable behavior and we will ban you from this forum.

(BTW - Any more ALL CAPS will be considered shouting, and that will get you banned too.)

Geezer (Moderator)
 

Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #30 on: 18/05/2010 05:53:03 »
If you dont know, just say so, or say nothing, or you never learn anything.

"The laws of thermodynamics state that absolute zero cannot be reached because this would require a thermodynamic system to be fully removed from the rest of the universe. A system at absolute zero would still possess quantum mechanical zero-point energy. While molecular motion would not cease entirely at absolute zero, the system would not have enough energy for transference to other systems. It is therefore correct to say that molecular kinetic energy is minimal at absolute zero."

My question asks, could such a mass be created with the extreme condensation of matter in gravity as powerful as something like a collapsing star, past the point of heating it self due to molecular fiction.  Would such a mass be super dense resulting in super gravity?


Your question asked
Quote
if matter is energy at a slow vibration, what happens with no vibration?
would matter not vibrating be super dense?
can vibration replace dark matter in equations?

  • I answered the science in it, and among the points I brought up was that matter doesn't stop vibrating even at absolute zero.
  • You said that it did and pointed me to a link.
  • I said it didn't and pointed you to another link.

The quote you give above supports what I was saying--matter at absolute zero would still "vibrate" quantum mechanically.  Whether you can physically reach that limit is another discussion entirely, but you can't stop it from vibrating even if you somehow reach absolute zero. 

To answer your new question about stars collapsing and gravity:  Massive stars can collapse under gravity to black holes.  We don't know how to unify that fact with quantum mechanics and we certainly can't look inside a black hole, which means there's probably no answer to your question about whether the mass at the singularity of a black hole is vibrating. 

At the risk of making things extremely complicated, it is possible to define a temperature for black holes based on radiation they should be emitting and it is above absolute zero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_thermodynamics#Interpretation_of_the_laws 
 

Offline UndergroundRisingUnited

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #31 on: 18/05/2010 06:06:11 »
Sounds like you are starting to understand the question.
My question asks:
If the mass that makes black holes would be super dense matter condensed past the point of fusion at low temp. due to shear size?
 

Offline UndergroundRisingUnited

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #32 on: 18/05/2010 06:14:55 »

If you dont know, just say so, or say nothing, or you never learn anything.


Public Warning

URU,

I have already warned you not to insult other posters yet you persist with insults like the one above. You seem to be more interested in picking fights to promote your own agenda than debating any real points of science.

This is your last warning. Any more unacceptable behavior and we will ban you from this forum.

(BTW - Any more ALL CAPS will be considered shouting, and that will get you banned too.)

Geezer (Moderator)
I apologize for anything I said interpreted as an insult.
I know almost every one has more education than I, for I received a g.e.d. at the age of 15 in a juvenile detention center.
I'm not here to prove any thing or promote any agenda aside from knowing the truth.
U.R.U.TM
 

Offline Geezer

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #33 on: 18/05/2010 06:34:31 »
OK URU.

The truth is very hard to know. Even when it's right in front of our face, we may still not know it.

I'm sure JP does not claim to know everything, but he really does know a lot about science today. I'm sure you can learn a lot if you are willing to pay attention to what he is saying.

If you can learn how to debate without putting other people down, you'll do fine.
 

Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #34 on: 18/05/2010 06:47:43 »
Sounds like you are starting to understand the question.
My question asks:
If the mass that makes black holes would be super dense matter condensed past the point of fusion at low temp. due to shear size?

Yes.  Gravity is so powerful that it can overcome every other force we know of if you have enough of it.  This includes the forces keeping atoms from being squashed together, and even forces keeping the tiny pieces that make up atoms from being squashed together.  In a black hole, all the matter that falls in should end up squashed down to a point (or more generally, a singularity, since a point only holds for simple black holes).
 

Offline UndergroundRisingUnited

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #35 on: 18/05/2010 06:59:28 »
Yes, I know.
I am asking about the actual singularity.
Is what makes this awesome gravity called a black hole a form of mass with particles so tightly condensed due too:

"The laws of thermodynamics state that absolute zero cannot be reached because this would require a thermodynamic system to be fully removed from the rest of the universe. A system at absolute zero would still possess quantum mechanical zero-point energy. While molecular motion would not cease entirely at absolute zero, the system would not have enough energy for transference to other systems. It is therefore correct to say that molecular kinetic energy is minimal at absolute zero."

Would this system be super dense matter with minimal kinetic energy, yet so dense its gravity is black hole powerful?
 

Offline Bored chemist

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #36 on: 18/05/2010 07:15:00 »
URU, if you were asking about black holes why didn't you mention them in the original post?
 

Offline Geezer

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #37 on: 18/05/2010 07:35:28 »
URU, if you were asking about black holes why didn't you mention them in the original post?


Perhaps we need to help URU understand the conventions of this forum. We might initiate a new topic if that seems appropriate to other forum members. I think it's appropriate that we try to support our brothers in science if they want to learn, don't you BC?
 

Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #38 on: 18/05/2010 08:18:23 »
Yes, I know.
I am asking about the actual singularity.
Is what makes this awesome gravity called a black hole a form of mass with particles so tightly condensed due too:

"The laws of thermodynamics state that absolute zero cannot be reached because this would require a thermodynamic system to be fully removed from the rest of the universe. A system at absolute zero would still possess quantum mechanical zero-point energy. While molecular motion would not cease entirely at absolute zero, the system would not have enough energy for transference to other systems. It is therefore correct to say that molecular kinetic energy is minimal at absolute zero."

Would this system be super dense matter with minimal kinetic energy, yet so dense its gravity is black hole powerful?


No.  A system at absolute zero doesn't necessarily become a black hole.  The amount of energy (or vibration) in a system isn't given by its density.  Forming a black hole depends on how much mass you have crammed into a certain volume of space. 

If you turn the question around and ask how much the singularity at the center of an existing black hole is "vibrating" on a quantum level--which is what absolute zero is about--I don't think anyone has the answer to that, since no one knows how gravity behaves on the quantum level.
 

Offline UndergroundRisingUnited

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #39 on: 18/05/2010 08:25:12 »
Yes, I know.
I am asking about the actual singularity.
Is what makes this awesome gravity called a black hole a form of mass with particles so tightly condensed due too:

"The laws of thermodynamics state that absolute zero cannot be reached because this would require a thermodynamic system to be fully removed from the rest of the universe. A system at absolute zero would still possess quantum mechanical zero-point energy. While molecular motion would not cease entirely at absolute zero, the system would not have enough energy for transference to other systems. It is therefore correct to say that molecular kinetic energy is minimal at absolute zero."

Would this system be super dense matter with minimal kinetic energy, yet so dense its gravity is black hole powerful?


No.  A system at absolute zero doesn't necessarily become a black hole.  The amount of energy (or vibration) in a system isn't given by its density.  Forming a black hole depends on how much mass you have crammed into a certain volume of space. 

If you turn the question around and ask how much the singularity at the center of an existing black hole is "vibrating" on a quantum level--which is what absolute zero is about--I don't think anyone has the answer to that, since no one knows how gravity behaves on the quantum level.


If you turn the question around and ask how much the singularity at the center of an existing black hole is "vibrating" on a quantum level--which is what absolute zero is about--I don't think anyone has the answer to that, since no one knows how gravity behaves on the quantum level.

thats the answer i am looking for, the one no one knows...................?
 

Offline UndergroundRisingUnited

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #40 on: 18/05/2010 08:27:12 »
URU, if you were asking about black holes why didn't you mention them in the original post?


Is what makes this awesome gravity called a black hole a form of mass with particles so tightly condensed they almost stop vibrating from super gravity it forms super gravity?
Super dense matter with minimal kinetic energy, formed when gravity overcomes fusion?
 

Offline UndergroundRisingUnited

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #41 on: 18/05/2010 08:36:37 »
"The amount of energy (or vibration) in a system isn't given by its density"

Isnt density why we use uranium for energy?
 

Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #42 on: 18/05/2010 08:48:04 »
"The amount of energy (or vibration) in a system isn't given by its density"

Isnt density why we use uranium for energy?

No.  We use uranium for energy because it decays easily and when its hit by a particle called a neutron.  When it decays so it releases a lot of energy along with more neutrons.  If you pack a lot of uranium atoms together and one decays, the neutrons it emits cause a chain reaction of uranium decay.  This means that you can release a lot of energy quickly.
 

Offline UndergroundRisingUnited

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #43 on: 18/05/2010 19:21:55 »
atomic density, not molecular...
 

Offline Bored chemist

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #44 on: 18/05/2010 20:47:32 »
It's a bit hard to define the density of a single atom; it hasn't got a properly defined radius so you can't calculate the volume for it.
On the other hand, you can look at the density of a solid like uranium and, as it happens, uranium is pretty dense, but it's not the densest element. Some of the denser ones are stable. On the other hand, tritium, which is about as un-dense as you can get is unstable enough that you could use it as a source of energy (of course, you would need to find a tritium source).

Anyway, you are right about one thing, nobody knows what is happening inside a black hole.

There is, as far as I know, not any experiment which can answer the question. Not because the experiment would be difficult, or expensive, but because no such experiment can be invented.
From that point of view the question is like asking how may angels can dance on the head of a pin.
 

Offline UndergroundRisingUnited

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #45 on: 18/05/2010 22:20:59 »
I understand the problems in defining the density of an atom, yet hypothetically the density should be able to determined by the quantity of particles in a given space.
I imagine such an experiment would have to be on paper, or maybe a computer model, but it would have to determine if fusion can take place at low temperature at high pressure.
If I knew the formulas, I would do the math my self.
 

Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #46 on: 19/05/2010 10:02:23 »
 
It's a bit hard to define the density of a single atom; it hasn't got a properly defined radius so you can't calculate the volume for it.

Would you be able to do something like compute the expected value of the radius for an atom in its ground state and use that to define a volume? 
 

Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #47 on: 19/05/2010 10:10:10 »
I understand the problems in defining the density of an atom, yet hypothetically the density should be able to determined by the quantity of particles in a given space.
I imagine such an experiment would have to be on paper, or maybe a computer model, but it would have to determine if fusion can take place at low temperature at high pressure.
If I knew the formulas, I would do the math my self.

BC might contradict me on what I posted above about determining density of a single atom, since he knows his chemistry a lot better than I do.  Let's say you could determine the density of a single atom.  What would you use that number for?  How does fusion come into it?  And black holes?  And what does this have to do with dark matter?  I'm not trying to pick on you here, but I'm confused about how to answer your question and what you're asking about.
 

Offline UndergroundRisingUnited

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #48 on: 19/05/2010 12:19:54 »
The question asks how dense atoms can be packed, determining the density is problematic because of isotopic variables, some elements seem to have more than one atomic number.
So to get a number relating to the density of an atom, I imagine one could take an average count.  When you buy in bulk, it is the weight not the quantity.
The point is to try and determine the maximum density at an atomic level.
Since there is space in atoms fusion comes into the equation to remove said space.
Usually fusion, in a star for example, occurs under high temperatures at high heat.

The normal ideas of states of matter are transformed at this level, molecular bonds mean nothing, gravity versus fusion explosions of energy contained by gravity.
When fusion wins, super nova throw heavy elements into the universe,
When gravity wins, neutron star.
What if, when there is enough mass, gravity compresses the mass past neutron star density to form a black hole?

Dark matter accounts for the universal weakness of gravity, because gravity alone is not strong enough to hold everything together, we use the variable of extra gravity from dark matter to make standard physics work.  I wonder, if the vibration of the atoms can account for gravities weakness and help explain why matter coalesces.

I think this states the question better....

Is what makes this awesome gravity called a black hole a form of mass with particles so tightly condensed they almost stop vibrating from super gravity it forms super gravity?
Super dense matter with minimal kinetic energy, formed when gravity overcomes high temp. fusion and begins low temp. fusion with shear mass compression as the engine?
 

Offline tommya300

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #49 on: 19/05/2010 12:48:29 »
Boolean Algebra 1+1=1 equivalant to 1 or 1 results 1
Gate to Electronics.


atoms are energy


How true. As Woody Allen put it, "It's like anything else."
play with this one in your mind;
1+1=1
 

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #49 on: 19/05/2010 12:48:29 »

 

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