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Offline myriam

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« Reply #25 on: 20/05/2010 14:07:15 »
"All we are trying to do here is an attempt to understand, the truth is there anyway "
And we do that by looking at the world, not by reading an old book.
you mean by  looking at the world, human scientific papers are true but the creator of those scientists is telling as some tales?
 

Offline norcalclimber

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« Reply #26 on: 20/05/2010 16:26:45 »
"All we are trying to do here is an attempt to understand, the truth is there anyway "
And we do that by looking at the world, not by reading an old book.
you mean by  looking at the world, human scientific papers are true but the creator of those scientists is telling as some tales?

The thing is, the scientific papers are verifiable.  And so are those "holy books", and when we look at the "holy books" we see that they are often false, misleading, heavily edited, and sometimes just plain silly.  Since none of them have actually made any prophecies which came true (I am extremely familiar with religion), they really have no leg to stand on except faith. 

I have no problem with people wanting to be religious, I have some very close friends who are.  But they don't try to make it into something its not; religion can provide some good advice on how to live your life, but it is not scientific in any way and if you try to make it into something it isn't you will just end up deluding yourself.
 

Offline norcalclimber

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« Reply #27 on: 20/05/2010 16:51:34 »

right norcalclimber, but if you dig  a littel bit deeper in the question you'll realise that the tow components of the question are earth and sun and that what I was waiting to be taken into considerations , so if we wanna make it more clear , what is the more complicated to do creating a sun and an earth or reanimating a dead creature?
 

The genesis of the sun and earth is inevitable, not miraculous.  So it doesn't seem awfully complicated to me, but reanimating something which has suffered massive cell death seems extremely complicated.
 

Offline myriam

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« Reply #28 on: 20/05/2010 17:06:38 »

right norcalclimber, but if you dig  a littel bit deeper in the question you'll realise that the tow components of the question are earth and sun and that what I was waiting to be taken into considerations , so if we wanna make it more clear , what is the more complicated to do creating a sun and an earth or reanimating a dead creature?
 

The genesis of the sun and earth is inevitable, not miraculous.  So it doesn't seem awfully complicated to me, but reanimating something which has suffered massive cell death seems extremely complicated.
inevitable  and not complected you said !! and the planets movements are also not complected you think , I wish seeing an astronomer replying on this supposition 
 

Offline norcalclimber

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« Reply #29 on: 20/05/2010 17:26:31 »

right norcalclimber, but if you dig  a littel bit deeper in the question you'll realise that the tow components of the question are earth and sun and that what I was waiting to be taken into considerations , so if we wanna make it more clear , what is the more complicated to do creating a sun and an earth or reanimating a dead creature?
 

The genesis of the sun and earth is inevitable, not miraculous.  So it doesn't seem awfully complicated to me, but reanimating something which has suffered massive cell death seems extremely complicated.
inevitable  and not complected you said !! and the planets movements are also not complected you think , I wish seeing an astronomer replying on this supposition 

Let me see if I can put this a little better.  I saw a youtube video which I thought made an excellent point(can't find it now) about the "fine-tuning" argument which I think applies here.

Take a frying pan, now pour a big pile of salt in it.  Each grain of salt is a cube, with a unique orientation.  The odds of getting that particular orientation for every single cube is astronomical.  And every time you do this experiment, the odds of getting that specific result will be so low as to be virtually impossible.  Trying to define the exact position and orientation of each grain of salt would be extremely complicated, even though the event which brought about the pile of salt was very simple.

So yes, an astronomer defining specifics about the orbit of earth and the planets and so on may find a lot of work.  But the laws of physics means it is inevitable that billions of solar systems will be created in our universe.  Also, all the variables which needed to occur to allow life to exist on Earth may seem incredible, but with so many solar systems it is also probably inevitable.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #30 on: 20/05/2010 19:24:13 »
The first astronomers to work out the basics have been dead for centuries.
 

Offline myriam

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« Reply #31 on: 20/05/2010 20:56:17 »
At last the human body is no more than several kgs of soil, water and some minerals in the contrary of a planet's composition.. in addition, and logically, reanimating a dead body is not more difficult than creating it for its Creator.
The difficulty that we are talking about here may have not the same exact meaning as that of the Creator    who knows every think.
I think that as a  human beings and looking to the limits of our brains, the only thing that we have to say is the Creator is too powerful because he is really, there is no doubt about it!
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #32 on: 20/05/2010 21:40:33 »
I don't believe in a creator, so I have strong doubts about the power of one.  But this is an irrelevant line of discussion - there is an interesting scientific angle to discuss here:

What's stopping us from re-starting organs/tissues/cells? Is it simply the damage that occurs due to lack of oxygen/nutrients?
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #33 on: 20/05/2010 21:41:16 »
Myriam,
You are quite right. Since any God would be able to recreate us just as easily as He created us in the first place He wouldn't need any odd store of memories stuck in a tail bone.

Why did you suppose there was one?

Of course, from my point of view He is a fairy story, but that's not the point. Your view isn't even internally consistent.
 

Offline myriam

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« Reply #34 on: 20/05/2010 22:26:19 »
Myriam,
You are quite right. Since any God would be able to recreate us just as easily as He created us in the first place He wouldn't need any odd store of memories stuck in a tail bone.

Why did you suppose there was one?

Of course, from my point of view He is a fairy story, but that's not the point. Your view isn't even internally consistent.

you know, I strongly beleive that science is a way to explore what is hidden and, yes, no one can diny the natural phenomena discovered and understood via the Science and that was mentioned in holly book before even the understanding of the word mentioned ; take the example of 'atome' written before 1400 years ago in the holly book.
I think If a scienctist is willing to discover a new thing, he has to forget the world 'NO' and go ahead with experiments , evidence showing up  can make him understand things more and more and that is the difference between mankind and the other creatures it's knowledge, evolution and amelioration.

I beleive that there is  something spetial in that bone, something that will be one day understood. it is not my field of research, and I'd like to hear that some one is gonna work on it :)
 

Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #35 on: 20/05/2010 22:51:32 »
you know, I strongly beleive that science is a way to explore what is hidden and, yes, no one can diny the natural phenomena discovered and understood via the Science and that was mentioned in holly book before even the understanding of the word mentioned ; take the example of 'atome' written before 1400 years ago in the holly book. 
Myriam – please do not co-opt the idea of the atom to bolster the reputation of a holy book written in the first millennium CE – the Greek philosophers were discussing the un-cuttable atom ἄτομος as a building block of nature well over a thousand years before the Koran.  Although Western science has a huge amount to thank the Arabic and Muslim scholars for, not least for maintaining the knowledge of the ancient Greeks, it is disingenuous to claim that much, if any, modern science is prefigured in any holy book of the first millennium.  Matthew
 

Offline echochartruse

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« Reply #36 on: 23/05/2010 23:15:26 »
Cryonics
    The emerging medical technology of cryopreserving humans and animals with the intention of future revival. Researchers in the field seek to apply the results of many sciences, including cryobiology, cryogenics, rheology, emergency medicine, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenics

we are working on it.
 

Offline myriam

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« Reply #37 on: 24/05/2010 21:04:34 »
"All we are trying to do here is an attempt to understand, the truth is there anyway "
And we do that by looking at the world, not by reading an old book.
you mean by  looking at the world, human scientific papers are true but the creator of those scientists is telling as some tales?

The thing is, the scientific papers are verifiable.  And so are those "holy books", and when we look at the "holy books" we see that they are often false, misleading, heavily edited, and sometimes just plain silly.  Since none of them have actually made any prophecies which came true (I am extremely familiar with religion), they really have no leg to stand on except faith. 

I have no problem with people wanting to be religious, I have some very close friends who are.  But they don't try to make it into something its not; religion can provide some good advice on how to live your life, but it is not scientific in any way and if you try to make it into something it isn't you will just end up deluding yourself.


I NEED TO KNOW IF YOU HAVE RED THE KORAN.
 

Offline myriam

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« Reply #38 on: 24/05/2010 21:12:32 »
you know, I strongly beleive that science is a way to explore what is hidden and, yes, no one can diny the natural phenomena discovered and understood via the Science and that was mentioned in holly book before even the understanding of the word mentioned ; take the example of 'atome' written before 1400 years ago in the holly book. 
Myriam – please do not co-opt the idea of the atom to bolster the reputation of a holy book written in the first millennium CE – the Greek philosophers were discussing the un-cuttable atom ἄτομος as a building block of nature well over a thousand years before the Koran.  Although Western science has a huge amount to thank the Arabic and Muslim scholars for, not least for maintaining the knowledge of the ancient Greeks, it is disingenuous to claim that much, if any, modern science is prefigured in any holy book of the first millennium.  Matthew


oh please don't tell me that  you know what was written in the koran !
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #39 on: 24/05/2010 21:48:05 »
I read about a third of the Koran (as an English translation) and got bored.
It kept repeating bits. Perhaps it's poetic in the original, but it's just dull in English.

I don't need to know what was written in the Koran to know that atoms were written about ages before the Koran was written; I just need to know that one book is older than another.
This guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucippus
predates the Koran by roughly a thousand years.

BTW, re.
"I beleive that there is  something spetial in that bone,"
Reality neither knows nor cares what you believe.
« Last Edit: 24/05/2010 21:50:02 by Bored chemist »
 

Offline myriam

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« Reply #40 on: 24/05/2010 22:09:45 »
thank you to share your point of view with us :)
 

Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #41 on: 25/05/2010 13:26:53 »
Myriam - I have read the Koran (and the Bible/Torah, some of the Upanishads, and quite a bit of Marx) but that has no bearing on the fact that the ancient Greek and Hindu philosophers were discussing the possible atomic nature of matter a thousand years prior to the dictation of the Koran. 

Before expanding on the contents of the Koran (which may or may not contain insight into scientific problems) please explain the time-line and how a book written in the early 6th century CE can prefigure writings of Leucippus and Democritus (in the 5th century BCE) and Hindu metaphysical writings from the Bhagavad Gita through to Jainism (from 6th to 1st century BCE)

Matthew
 

Offline myriam

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« Reply #42 on: 25/05/2010 15:32:02 »
Myriam - I have read the Koran (and the Bible/Torah, some of the Upanishads, and quite a bit of Marx) but that has no bearing on the fact that the ancient Greek and Hindu philosophers were discussing the possible atomic nature of matter a thousand years prior to the dictation of the
Koran. 

Before expanding on the contents of the Koran (which may or may not contain insight into scientific problems) please explain the time-line and how a book written in the early 6th century CE can prefigure writings of Leucippus and Democritus (in the 5th century BCE) and Hindu metaphysical writings from the Bhagavad Gita through to Jainism (from 6th to 1st century BCE)

Matthew

it is simply because  it is a Holly book not invented by  any human being , it contains the words of the CREATORS who created every thing, the messenger is just a messenger  telling the humanity the message from the Creator
in addition to the word 'atome' in koran , there are so many other things that science has just discovered now .....
 

Offline BenV

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« Reply #43 on: 25/05/2010 16:07:52 »
All holy books were written by people.  If you choose to believe otherwise, then nothing we can say here will help.  Looking back and attepting to find scientific references in ancient books is a fools errand, as it's easy to reinterpret something in the light of new knowledge.  It would have to be really very specific to be of any worth.
 

Offline norcalclimber

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« Reply #44 on: 25/05/2010 20:06:47 »
Myriam - I have read the Koran (and the Bible/Torah, some of the Upanishads, and quite a bit of Marx) but that has no bearing on the fact that the ancient Greek and Hindu philosophers were discussing the possible atomic nature of matter a thousand years prior to the dictation of the
Koran. 

Before expanding on the contents of the Koran (which may or may not contain insight into scientific problems) please explain the time-line and how a book written in the early 6th century CE can prefigure writings of Leucippus and Democritus (in the 5th century BCE) and Hindu metaphysical writings from the Bhagavad Gita through to Jainism (from 6th to 1st century BCE)

Matthew

it is simply because  it is a Holly book not invented by  any human being , it contains the words of the CREATORS who created every thing, the messenger is just a messenger  telling the humanity the message from the Creator
in addition to the word 'atome' in koran , there are so many other things that science has just discovered now .....

The Quran is a collection of writings from many different people, which were compiled, then edited and revised for a couple hundred years after Muhammad died. 

It has already been shown to you that the word "atom" did not originate with the Quran.  Can you provide anything which is actually there first that science has just discovered?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_the_Quran  shows first the answer from a Muslim source, then follows with a pretty effective rebuttal.
 

Offline myriam

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« Reply #45 on: 25/05/2010 21:31:36 »
All holy books were written by people.  If you choose to believe otherwise, then nothing we can say here will help.  Looking back and attepting to find scientific references in ancient books is a fools errand, as it's easy to reinterpret something in the light of new knowledge.  It would have to be really very specific to be of any worth.

saying that "All holly books were written by people" means that those peole needed some ink to write down what messengers were telling them what they were recieving from the one only God  but it  means also  4  additional possibilities:

1: you have nerver red a Holly book as skillful religious did
2: you have red the koran but you have never understood it
3: you  have red all the Holly books exept the koran
4: you have red and understood the meanings of the koran but you wanna diny it to your self and to others too.

 

Offline norcalclimber

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« Reply #46 on: 25/05/2010 21:49:12 »
All holy books were written by people.  If you choose to believe otherwise, then nothing we can say here will help.  Looking back and attepting to find scientific references in ancient books is a fools errand, as it's easy to reinterpret something in the light of new knowledge.  It would have to be really very specific to be of any worth.

saying that "All holly books were written by people" means that those peole needed some ink to write down what messengers were telling them what they were recieving from the one only God  but it  means also  4  additional possibilities:

1: you have nerver red a Holly book as skillful religious did
2: you have red the koran but you have never understood it
3: you  have red all the Holly books exept the koran
4: you have red and understood the meanings of the koran but you wanna diny it to your self and to others too.



Actually, there is another possibility:  The Quran, along with all other "holy" books, was actually written and created and edited and revised by people and for people, with absolutely no messenger or god or anything supernatural whatsoever involved or existing in any way.

Again, you claimed there are a great many things which were mentioned in the Quran and science is only now discovering.  What are they?
 

Offline myriam

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« Reply #47 on: 25/05/2010 22:21:24 »
All holy books were written by people.  If you choose to believe otherwise, then nothing we can say here will help.  Looking back and attepting to find scientific references in ancient books is a fools errand, as it's easy to reinterpret something in the light of new knowledge.  It would have to be really very specific to be of any worth.

saying that "All holly books were written by people" means that those peole needed some ink to write down what messengers were telling them what they were recieving from the one only God  but it  means also  4  additional possibilities:

1: you have nerver red a Holly book as skillful religious did
2: you have red the koran but you have never understood it
3: you  have red all the Holly books exept the koran
4: you have red and understood the meanings of the koran but you wanna diny it to your self and to others too.



Actually, there is another possibility:  The Quran, along with all other "holy" books, was actually written and created and edited and revised by people and for people, with absolutely no messenger or god or anything supernatural whatsoever involved or existing in any way.

Again, you claimed there are a great many things which were mentioned in the Quran and science is only now discovering.  What are they?

here is a small example

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/215/
 

Offline myriam

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« Reply #48 on: 25/05/2010 22:40:20 »
 

Offline norcalclimber

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« Reply #49 on: 26/05/2010 01:21:50 »
Both of those links only seem true to people who either already believe or want to believe.  Vague statements, combined with flat out lies.  Let us look at just one of the examples:

Quote
The miracle of embryonic development is mentioned in the Quran in such minute detail, much of which was unknown to scientists until only recently.  It mentions the first stages of life after conception, the second stage of life after conception, and witnesses of scientists about these scientific facts of the Quran.

“We created man from an extract of clay.  Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed.  Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)…” (Quran 23:12-14)

Where is the supposed minute detail which was unknown until recently?  Humans and animals have been dissected for thousands of years, at every stage of development.  Brain surgery was performed by ancient Egyptians, and those supposedly minute details have probably been known for even longer. 

Every example I have looked at in those two links you provided was the same, and only shows that there must be absolutely nothing there if they have to resort to such lengths to try to "prove" it.

People can be scientists and religious at the same time, they just need to accept the fact that their holy books could at best be inspired by god and written by man which makes them subject to error.  IMHO.
 

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